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What do you think of the people who use the pejorative "SJW?"

/hattip Bob, sorry for confusion



doesn't this mean, though, that you are assuming a stance whereby you are actually admitting you have no interest in moving the needle on these issues, preferring to simply attack?

I'm actually ok with this stance but one does sort of have to admit that they're essentially engaging in a slightly masturbatory pummeling of obviously-bad ideas from a mostly-safe vantage. If you write off anyone who uses "SJW" then you are simply not even trying to convince anyone, you just want a fight (with assholes, most of whom I do not believe you can help, but some you can, imo).

Sometimes it's better for your mental health to just disengage with someone who's already shown themselves as less likely to be receptive to your views/politics/existence. How is that masturbatory or an attack?

I really wish people would divorce themselves of the notion that everything minorities do has to be for the betterment of others or it's offensive
 
I would say instantly going for a social media boogeyman when confronted with something that involves pulling back and not the actual problem with the situation is pitiful.
 

DrSlek

Member
Sensitive Joss Whedon? I know his work isn't for everyone, but there's no need to make his name a pejorative.
 
honestly i don't care. i don't judge people based on how they use pop culture labels. seems like the biggest waste of time and energy to get upset about something like this.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
It's disturbing that so many people see social justice as a bad thing.

If they saw it is as justice, social or otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to use the term. Generally speaking I see the term used by one sort of extremist to label another. They're both going overboard, just on opposite sides of the boat.

The only time the label pops into my mind is when i run into somebody who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk of activism. It isn't about whatever it is that needs help/change, it is about them proudly parroting things real people have said/done.
 
I find extreme/hypersensitive liberals grating, but I don't use SJW and don't really talk to anyone who does. Most of the time people saying it don't seem to have a good grasp of what they're talking about and are engaging in the same kind of outrage seeking behavior they're condemning.
 

Lulubop

Member
only people I know against justice are villains

200_s.gif
 

LosDaddie

Banned
doesn't this mean, though, that you are assuming a stance whereby you are actually admitting you have no interest in moving the needle on these issues, preferring to simply attack?

I'm actually ok with this stance but one does sort of have to admit that they're essentially engaging in a slightly masturbatory pummeling of obviously-bad ideas from a mostly-safe vantage. If you write off anyone who uses "SJW" then you are simply not even trying to convince anyone, you just want a fight (with assholes, most of whom I do not believe you can help, but some you can, imo).

Good post. Essentially that point I made earlier.


Oh I just showed factual observations. To provide my true feelings would be to show respect. Of which I have none of for him.

And you ended up getting banned.


Yeah, he's used it as an unironic insult for years now. It's no surprise he'd "both sides" the usage. Done it before, too.

Why self-reflect when you can instead (lamely) fight to draw a false equivalence

I thought I made a valid point, but hey, not surprised you'd disagree. I'm sure we'll have another go around in some other thread. It's always fun.
 
I find it hilarious, because they're basically saying "You fucking idiot, you person who fights for social justice!".

Like, I know not everyone who would be labelled as a SJW are paragons of virtue and generally good people, but the term itself is just so self-defeating.

Me and my friend are constantly joking about us being "SJEWS!" (not correlated with jews, check out Hbomberguy).

That dude has made folks that use that word so much more funny/foolish to be..good stuff.
 

Hackworth

Member
only people I know against justice are villains
Legit, most of the people I see using SJW like it's a real thing are wankers, the rest are like twelve and got all their social education from racists on youtube.

It's kind of dropped out of favor among The Left except as a joke.
 

Mossybrew

Gold Member
I dunno, every once in a while it's appropriate, for virtue signallers just looking for an easy way to feel superior.
 
It means different things to different people depending on who's saying it.

If a left-leaner says 'sjw', they're more likely insulting something very different than when a right-winger says it. The fact that its sort of a catch-all insult is why its so popular. I try to figure out what the person means in saying it before I know if I agree with them or not.
 

gun_haver

Member
It's hard for me to tell how much of the firestorm of SJWs vs alt-Right is actually a real, large scale thing and how much of it is just thrown up to me in the kinds of places I visit online (y'know, video games, media analysis, etc) which seems like it really attracts people who have very specific, if not well-reasoned, ideas about what social justice is and how it should be pursued.

I still don't fully buy it's a real zeitgeist defining conflict. People draw direct lines between the alt-right and Trump but I think the alt-right is basically just a fraction of the support Trump has if for no other reason than the majority of Trump's voters will not have heard of the alt-right, won't really use the internet much and are voting for him for good old-fashioned republican reasons. Same with the recent surge of the right in Europe (which is now faltering already).

So to me it's an expression of the typical left-right conflict which has invented a new, limited vocabulary to express itself in the absence of critical thought and experience. Everybody who uses these terms in abundance seems to feel like they are at the core of the political battlefield, but I think it's actually just a subsection of a subsection - the basis of the conflict is the same, but it's a caricatured and shallow version of it, and one largely devoid of the economics which actually cause it to arise in the first place. It is entirely about identity, and this is a common problem, although one usually taken advantage of by the right to distract an exploited population from its exploitation and gain votes by scapegoating immigrants, the poor themselves, etc, as the reasons for a society's problems.

Whenever I have talked to anybody openly about their use of the term SJW, or tried to get them to soften on it a bit, I've been successful and they start trying to explain themselves earnestly, and trying to mitigate the legitimate criticisms that have been thrown their way (not by me, but they assume simply because I'm questioning them I am condemning them). It generally hasn't really held up, because the vocabulary might be quite vivid, but it is as vivid as it is because there really isn't any deep thought behind it. It's like some kind of rhetorical flash grenade. They start out trying, then kind of get bored because y'know, discussion and self-reflection isn't the point. The point is gratification and feeling part of a group.

It probably mobilises people to vote in certain ways, but again, I haven't seen anything that makes me think 'wow we're doomed to far right governments if we don't deal with these 'sjw' insults'. It seems kind of immature all around, which makes sense since it is a vocabulary invented by the young. Not that only young people use it any more, but people of all ages have access to it now, perhaps through things like video game forums/reddits, and immaturity doesn't have an age limit. So it started with the young, but now it's more of a subculture.

I'm also not super worried about it because there will always be this far-right element in society, and they just keep losing ground in the west. Yeah there are road bumps but I'll start worry when I see civil liberties actually starting to be rolled back, rather than extended, even if the extension is frustratingly slow because of these far-right elements. I also think that attacking the far-right, racist or anti-progressive elements head on is just playing whack-a-mole and won't actually solve anything. It's all structural and to do with economics, and most people don't actually care so they don't want to talk about that stuff.

Anyone think I'm not taking it seriously enough?
 

Arkage

Banned
What is this post

My post was a response to a previous post.

Specifically, the claim that virtual signalling is relabeled empathy, and is therefore actually good or productive, isn't a good argument since it's relying on axiomatic claims concerning the moral value of empathy.

And ironically, guess who has super high levels of empathy? Sociopaths. Being able to understand how others feel is critical in manipulating them and making them miserable.
 

gun_haver

Member
My post was a response to a previous post.

Specifically, the claim that virtual signalling is relabeled empathy, and is therefore actually good or productive, isn't a good argument since it's relying on axiomatic claims concerning the moral value of empathy.

And ironically, guess who has super high levels of empathy? Sociopaths. Being able to understand how others feel is critical in manipulating them and making them miserable.

Virtue signalling isn't 'relabelled empathy', though. I know you were responding to a post that just bluntly said it was. Virtue signalling is a description of a dishonest claim to moral superiority in some matter. The problem with it is, whether someone's claim to moral superiority is 'honest' (ie, heartfelt, not simply intended to score points, legitimately thought out, etc) or dishonest (the inverse of that), doesn't actually have any bearing on the legitimacy of an argument at all. A horny man can claim that the pay gap between men and women should be erased because they think it will lead women to like them more, and he can still be right, regardless of his own individual reasons for saying so. The attack on the 'virtue signalling', is simply made because it is an obvious personal flaw with the individual, and because there is no good argument to be made against the opinion that the pay gap between men and women should be erased.

It basically functions as:
person a: this thing is so bad.
person b: you're just saying that because to want to look good, liar!

and the intended result is person a WAS simply trying to look good, for whatever reason, thus appearing to debunk whatever argument they were making, when in fact absolutely nothing has been revealed.

this is the level all of this stuff is on, really.
 
I'll use "SJW" every now and then. Don't have anything against social justice, but there is a large enough crowd on the Internet spouting ridiculous nonsense ("white women wearing Indian garb is cultural appropriation/reverse racism doesn't exist, etc.") that they've earned a bit of a mocking name. It's probably not the word I would've went with, but given that it's the word the Internet went with I'll user it to refer to that group.
 
I've actually read chunks of this because of a couple of interesting reviews when it came out! It's muddled and bad. What the author calls "rational compassion" is in no way at odds with or incompatible with identifying with the feelings of individuals or groups. And to say that empathy isn't the whole of ethics is trite to anyone who's ever studied ethics.

(Also "rational" and "irrational" aren't particularly useful descriptors outside of a few specific scientific and/or technical contexts. People's insistence on--and poor identification of--"rational" action probably does more harm, on balance, than people being "empathetic.")
 
I'll use "SJW" every now and then. Don't have anything against social justice, but there is a large enough crowd on the Internet spouting ridiculous nonsense ("white women wearing Indian garb is cultural appropriation/reverse racism doesn't exist, etc.") that they've earned a bit of a mocking name. It's probably not the word I would've went with, but given that it's the word the Internet went with I'll user it to refer to that group.

Why?
 
Meh. It's a valid term if you ask me. The extreme right has the alt right, and the extreme left has SJWs.

Like, the girl who flipped about the hula figure in the Lyft and the girl who flipped about the "Hugh Mungus" joke are people I would consider "SJWs".
 

.....

Member
Most of the times ive seen it used its been done so by idiots to insult people who arent stupid and are progressive. Ive also seen it used to describe people who are hypersensitive to the point youd think they were being hyperbolic.
At this point i dont really give a shit.
 

gun_haver

Member
Meh. It's a valid term if you ask me. The extreme right has the alt right, and the extreme left has SJWs.

Like, the girl who flipped about the hula figure in the Lyft and the girl who flipped about the "Hugh Mungus" joke are people I would consider "SJWs".

i dunno i'd just consider those people 'stupid' and 'embarrassing themselves' rather than create a politicised term which tries to mock anybody who thinks the concept of social justice is palatable in order to describe them. seems like overkill to me.
 
i dunno i'd just consider those people 'stupid' and 'embarrassing themselves' rather than create a politicised term which tries to mock anybody who thinks the concept of social justice is palatable in order to describe them. seems like overkill to me.
The term fits though. People who take social justice to extremes, to the point of pure harassment. A "social justice warrior".

The term's meaning has certainly degraded though with the right considering every single leftist an SJW.
 
So people know what I'm talking about, I guess? Seems easier than making up my own word and having to explain it.

But the phrase is toxic and kinda lazy.

Meh. It's a valid term if you ask me. The extreme right has the alt right, and the extreme left has SJWs.

Like, the girl who flipped about the hula figure in the Lyft and the girl who flipped about the "Hugh Mungus" joke are people I would consider "SJWs".

The term fits though. People who take social justice to extremes, to the point of pure harassment. A "social justice warrior".

The term's meaning has certainly degraded though with the right considering every single leftist an SJW.

The alt-right is an actual group with goals and leaders and shit.

Those you call SJWs are just randos
 
But the phrase is toxic and kinda lazy.

I don't think it's toxic. It's definitely been abused by the right to refer to every person on the left but that shouldn't mean the word needs to be taken out of circulation.

As for lazy, I guess maybe it's lazy. I just don't have much of a problem with it being lazy. A lot of language is lazy.
 
ITT people once again conflate random people who probably spend too much time on Tumblr to the organized and radicalized denizens of the alt-right.
 
I don't think it's toxic. It's definitely been abused by the right to refer to every person on the left but that shouldn't mean the word needs to be taken out of circulation.

As for lazy, I guess maybe it's lazy. I just don't have much of a problem with it being lazy. A lot of language is lazy.
Yeah that's a pretty good reason why it's toxic though...
 

Infinite

Member
Pretty sure the term "virtua signalling" was co-opted by these alt right types. Like the term has lost all of its original meaning. Ironically this is the same for sjw.
 

Breads

Banned
god imagine being so morality bankrupt as to actually respond to seeing something positive/helpful and instantly responding with this likewise dumb phrase

As a person in visual media who travels for months out of the year to conventions... Ive seen it.

People are only decent to promote themselves or if they're trying to get laid. That there if there wasn't anything to be gained people would'nt care about (insert concern here).

They really believe this.
 
I've said this in the past, and I'll say it again. I'm a liberal and I use the term unironically to refer to the crazies like the Hula Hoop Lyft girl.

I'm no gator or MRA, but I do think there are certain people that the term can be applied to. Social justice is a cause worth championing, but when you go too far into the rabbit hole and start calling yoga cultural appropriation, or a dad joke sexual harassment like the Hugh Mungus situation, I feel like the term is apt. Doesn't fit many gaffers, but can be applied to a few Tumblr users for sure.

I make the same distinction between rational liberals vs SJWs, as fans vs fanboys, or religious people vs fanatics/extemists. It's a pretty good term that has unfortunately been beaten to death by right-wingers/gamergators by referring to any centrist or liberal as SJW.

I know this puts me at odds with most of this thread, and some of you think I'm garbage, but oh well. Can't win everything.

Basically.

I don't use the term, but the two people I know who did use it used it to refer to this kind of general caricature of a person and not someone who's simply pushing for equality. Again, I think these are the types of people were probably semi-jokingly referred to as "hippies" or "granolas" even by some on the left 15 or 20 years ago - "SJW" is just the latest iteration of that. Someone whose otherwise noble ideals manifest in such an extreme way that everything is galling and offensive to them. But it's an expression that's obviously used seriously by a lot of detestable people out there.

If someone who I know is a Trump supporter or minimizer of societal issues uses SJW then I look at them in a negative light. If it's someone who I know is fairly progressive in many ways and has never said anything to give me pause uses it, then I assume they're referring to people like Hugh Mungus woman.
 
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