Oh my.
Just for giggles can you explain why "sports titles" wouldn't meet your "interpretation?"
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XB1X 4K standard includes checkerboard and dynamic
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
Oh my.
Just for giggles can you explain why "sports titles" wouldn't meet your "interpretation?"
Cause they usually don't take much oomph to run, like FIFA is always 1080/60 on X1.
Everyone is acting like Ive said something insane here.
Liliana Eileen
Member
They said it was up to the developer MULTIPLE TIMES. People seem to be grasping at straws and are going to be disappointed when the DF articles start dropping.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
From May 2017:
http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2017/0...ates-for-scorpio-versions-even-in-multiplayer
From January 2017:
http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-scorpio-specs-detailed-in-leak-esram-gone-boosted-l2-cache-and-more
From September 2016:
http://www.techradar.com/news/gamin...and-the-end-of-the-console-generation-1329260
Just as a quick search...
http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2017/0...ates-for-scorpio-versions-even-in-multiplayer
From January 2017:
http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-scorpio-specs-detailed-in-leak-esram-gone-boosted-l2-cache-and-more
From September 2016:
http://www.techradar.com/news/gamin...and-the-end-of-the-console-generation-1329260
Just as a quick search...
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
I don't think anyone is disputing they said devs would choose how to use the extra power, but it seemed pretty clear if they wanted to aim for 4k most games would be able to run in 4k natively.
Now it seems like that might not actually be the case, so people are raking them over the coals for constantly saying "True 4k" and saying it did 4k different (see: better) than the Pro.
Liliana Eileen
Member
And that's a wrap, folks.
I didn't. I though all the talk of true 4k meant native, this is underhanded by them.
quod non, nobody disputes this. We're talking about the 'True 4k' stuff that's been going around for a while now.
OfTheOverflow
Member
Huh, thought Phil wasn't too fond of those techniques
So what yall get bent out of shape over marketing hooplah. Might as well get mad at all the corporations who claim their products are the best. Fucking neogaf i tell you!
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
You'd have to be wilfully ignorant not to read between those lines. Especially when one of those quotes I posted explicitly states that devs can go 1080p if they really wanted to.
If only Phil did not make those claims after E3 and theirs ads didnt show true 4k.... If only.
FingerBang
Member
This guy gets it.
MilkyJoe
Member
There is no pint you asked a question I answered it. You need to lay off the coffee
Maintenance
Member
Pretty sure that means he's doing his job.
"native" rendering yes, resolution no
So like forza too then?
Depends entirely on what base resolution the game is checkerboarding to. Infamous checkerboards to 1800p and then upscales the rest of the way to 4k. So native resolution wise its actually less than 4k.
Horizon however checkerboards to 2160. No upscaling required. In terms of pixel data you have a full 4k output, it has just rendered half of that at any one frame in a second of gameplay and used previous frame date to build the rest.
Checkerboarding, temporal injection, and dynamic res are going to be with us for a long time on consoles targeting 4k. I expect them to be used quite a bit on next gen hardware as well. They're great solutions but this is an example of MS' chest bumping marketing coming back to bite them. No doubt XBX is more powerful than the Pro, but native 4k is a lofty target and there's no reason to malign alternate ways of improving image quality on UHD displays.
dragonelite
Member
Yeah, native/true 4k should be 3840*2160 pixels rendered with no shortcut what so ever so no upscaling or reconstruction. That was how its defined pre ps4 pro and that is also how it should stay now with the 1x.
Not that I'm against Checkerboarding or other reconstruction techniques.
rokkerkory
Member
Thanks OP but we already knew of this long ago.
Theonik
Member
Someone should have maybe told Microsoft then as they still seem to be pushing the 'True 4K' nonsense to this day.
I would honestly prefer MS to use CB if they really must do the whole 4K thing, use the saved processing for making games actually look nice. But then i'm of the personal opinion that chasing 4k at this point when neither MS or sony can even consistently achieve 1080p on their base consoles is a waste of resources, so maybe i'm biased.
rokkerkory
Member
This is really silly, there are plenty of native 4k games coming at launch. With plenty of patches for existing games as well.
They never said true 4k MANDATED for everything.
Thats not the quoted or OP's point.....
Theonik
Member
Same goes for the PS4 Pro and yet Sony was pretty forward about the decision and concept from day 1. They didn't feel these systems are well suited to do native 4K and neither do many scorpio devs seemingly.
You are being quite obtuse here. Of course Microsoft will be mocked after their marketing campaign trying to pass the system as fundamentally different when their advice to developers and approach is pretty much the same.
rokkerkory
Member
Please go ahead and prove your point in bold.
System isn't even out yet and we know there are native 4k games in development now. I don't know how I am being obtuse when you're downplaying a system and games that aren't even out yet.
Devs can use the power however they want, so if games aren't native 4k then it's somehow MS' fault?
dragonelite
Member
Isn't assassin creed like the only one that uses Checkerboarding in its alpha state to get to 4k? The rest we don't even know about.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
How can you read those quotes and then say it seemed clear they meant something else that they didn't say?
Whatever they want for their own games has no regards to this particular point. They haven't flinched on the point that developers are free to do whatever they want.
Except they have a LITTERAL wall of text at E3 that says anything below native 4K is a "compromise" and that their 4K behemoths existence is 'almost unfair' to the competition, despite doing the same thing their competition is actually doing too. You'd think since they're getting checkerboarded titles too they wouldn't be running with that narrative. And then to claim the pro is competing with the xbox s. Pretty weird messaging.
Checkerboarding is fine way to achieve 4k and was expected, but they probably shouldn't be belitlling the technique when devs are having to use it themselves on their new console.
Who are these people? I've got to sell them something.
According to Phil True 4K is not using the same techniques as the other consoles.
While the XOX may have more native 4K games than the PRO,
Both have faux 4K, Checkerboard 4K, and Native 4K games.
So in the language of "True 4K console" they are both the same.
PR/Marketing speak is saying "We have the best console to play True 4K games" Dishonesty is saying "We have the only console to play True 4K games"
Its just alot of goal post moving, handwaving, and straw man going on in here.
The OP point isnt what the devs can do with the resources, but Phil/MS writing off Checkerboarding, and insinuating that the XOX is the ONLY console with Native 4K games (which is not true)
I have seen at least 3-4 replies in this very thread who admitted to it
Dee Dah Dave
Member
This is just a PR blurb, nothing more. A quick and concise way to say "hey our console is better". You can't expect them to roll out every caveat or exception to the rule every time someone mentions 4K, that isn't how advertising works. Plus it's not like they didn't already say all options are available right back since E3 2016.
Even Sony the other day said the new Gran Turismo was 4K, when it isn't. I have seen them say it for other stuff too when actually it is 1800p or whatever.
4K, True 4K, Checkerboard and whatever else. Nobody is going to be telling you the specifics unless they have to. Welcome to PR, do we really need a song and dance every single time. Really?
Even Sony the other day said the new Gran Turismo was 4K, when it isn't. I have seen them say it for other stuff too when actually it is 1800p or whatever.
4K, True 4K, Checkerboard and whatever else. Nobody is going to be telling you the specifics unless they have to. Welcome to PR, do we really need a song and dance every single time. Really?
Yeah, that's what I am talking about.
I understand PS4 Pro runs some games running in 3840 * 2160 with no shortcuts (i.e. TLoU Remastered, Skyrim, Wipeout Omega Collection) but most don't.
On Xbox One S, that will be more common, but still not the rule.
Theonik
Member
I can't get back on you on that until November. Please understand.
Just take a look at the options MS is supporting for developers and their whitepaper recommendations they give. It is obvious what MS actually thinks developers actually want out of the Scorpio. And really, the gap between the Pro and Scorpio isn't wide enough to offer 4K where the Pro isn't already getting close to hitting that. Marketing the Scorpio as the best 4K system is pretty close to true. Marketing it as the only 4K system is verifiably false.
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill here. We already knew beforehand that developers were free to use Scorpio's resources however they wanted, which means there's going to be a ton of games that aren't native 4k (probably most of them). Anybody who thought most games on Scorpio were going to be true 4k weren't paying attention to what Microsoft has been saying, the reality of 2017 technology, or were being extremely naive.
Though I suppose it is incredibly shocking that the head of the Xbox division would try to spin things to make their product look like it has more of an edge over their competition than it does in reality. No corporation has done this before.
Bottom line: the X is going to be a solid step over the Pro, but we aren't yet at the point a $500 box can support graphically ambitious games at native 4k with a locked 30+ FPS.
Though I suppose it is incredibly shocking that the head of the Xbox division would try to spin things to make their product look like it has more of an edge over their competition than it does in reality. No corporation has done this before.
Bottom line: the X is going to be a solid step over the Pro, but we aren't yet at the point a $500 box can support graphically ambitious games at native 4k with a locked 30+ FPS.
Pretty much this. When Sony has been promoting their console as a 4K console, this was MS' way to promote their console as the more powerful of the two.
There's something wrong when people are hanging on marketing slogans more than actual guidelines and talks regarding suggested development practices.
But if you can't see the diference between checkerboarded 2160 and native 2160. Why does it even matter making the distinction? What is displayed on your screen is a full, pixel complete 4k image either way, right?
BigBoss007
Member
Well, this is the same company that claimed four years ago Kinect was mandatory for Xbox One to run.
They sold the console for 500 with Kinect and, eight months later, Kinect was not that important, the console could work without it and sold Xbox One for 400.
You know... Words in the wind.
They sold the console for 500 with Kinect and, eight months later, Kinect was not that important, the console could work without it and sold Xbox One for 400.
You know... Words in the wind.
rokkerkory
Member
I love how you keep making your opinions as fact. lol
DF comparisons will be the best thing on GAF later this year.
There is a difference though. It's been stated in multiple analysis that while impressive, 4KCB is not quite as sharp as native 4K.
I'm fine with any company or studio using any techniques they think makes their game look the best way possible. I just hope they are honest about it.
Thank you. It's like people have never seen marketing. Why do you think MS released that simple breakdown of 4K. If they went over every finite detail they would lose everyone on the message. They aren't marketing just to gaf. Lol
Yeah I know, I agree with you.
side note:
I'd love to see something real-time on Xbox One S (be it a game or even just a tech demo) where basically all the resources are put towards extremely high detail / geometry / fidelity and lighting
(re: made to look like CGI, but realtime) while doing 1280 x 720 HD resolution and 30 frames a second (so the very most can be done per frame).
Just for the heck of it.
Theonik
Member
Not quite. Checkerboarding is not free. It creates reconstruction artefacts. They are just less noticeable than other alternatives like conventional upscaling or line based reconstruction etc. You can see it in DF comparisons, also on larger TVs, especially ones with higher quality motion handling. (one of the benefits is the artefacts mostly appear in motion heavy scenes but TVs become blurry in those anyway which hides it, the other is it effectively doubles performance.)
E: One other recommendation from MS's whitepaper I've seen on the Pro is doing geometry in native 4K but running effect and shader passes at lower resolutions. Gravity Daze 2 does this on the Pro.
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