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[Patroclos]

It should be pretty clear by now that the XBOne was designed to make great looking next generation games at 720p. MS expected Kinect to win hearts and minds like the Wii did before it and bet on black crush (boosted contrast) + sharpening to make the difference from 1080p negligible to the average person who sits much too far away from their TV than they should. They also trusted that their obfuscation and rhetoric would influence a rather clueless media industry.

They did not bet on savvy forum posters pointing out the machine's obvious GPU deficit in terms of ROPs, sharers and memory bandwidth and really taking the lead on educating the media and the masses.

Now that they're in a technological panic mode, they're scrambling engineers out to squeeze every last drop out of the machine, attempting to achieve parity wins on high profile cross gen games or non demanding titles with the likes of their mates at EA and continuing to obfuscate with DX12 - a low level API which will greatly enhance PC titles but that the One effectively had from the start.

Konami and their internally developed engine is not yet on Microsoft's radar.

This is one of the best summation posts I have seen regarding the MS debacle. You should be a member. The only thing I don't agree with 100% is the bolded part and the only reason I don't agree is because I have to think about it a bit more because it had not occurred to me yet.

As far as that last bolded statement goes I have a sneaking suspicion that SoM was not on their radar either as I tried to explain previously. Nice Post.

 

[JJD]

This is clearly lazy dev excuse. They should be able.to get to 900p but seems they don't care much for X1 version.

Not sure if I'll buy TPP if it's 720, ot ill wait for big price drop

They are as lazy as MS was when designing the Xbone.

 

[chubigans]

Saying the XB1 is not designed for 1080p is simply not accurate. It may not be able to pull it off as easily as the PS4, but we've already got a pile of evidence that suggests it's been designed to provide native 1080p games.

Oh I dunno, at the same time I think the Xbox engineers knew getting to 1080p would be tough, which is why we have a unique three pane render system for XB1, which allows UI to be rendered in 1080p while the rest of the game runs at a lower resolution. Most multiplatform games don't utilize this though.

 

[bombshell]

So we can take from this that the Fox Engine is a pile of shite then!!??

when you consider that Fifa is 1080p/60 and looks graphically better than this?....and thats not even a new engine EA are using.

Konami should be ashamed of themselves....either that or there a bunch of lazy work shy shysters

This is clearly lazy dev excuse. They should be able.to get to 900p but seems they don't care much for X1 version.

Not sure if I'll buy TPP if it's 720, ot ill wait for big price drop

It is clear the fox engine is optimized for PS4, and Xbox One is 720p because they give zero shit about it.

Jesus, people have no shame do they.

 

[Biker19]

That was a launch title. We already know the gap will be much closer this time around.

Most AAA games are the same. Destiny, NBA, Wolfenstein, Alien Isolation, etc.

If you seriously think that most 3rd party developers will intentionally gimp PS4 versions of games to make Xbox One fans happy, you're in for a long ride, especially when future multiplat games are going to be more demanding off of both hardwares due to more advanced engines for future games.

 

[SolidSnakex]

It is clear the fox engine is optimized for PS4, and Xbox One is 720p because they give zero shit about it.

If they didn't care about the Xbox One version then in the case of KojiPro, they wouldn't have bothered to make sure that it was one of the very few games that actually runs locked at 60fps. Yes, it's 720p, but it also runs at 60fps and never flinches. The engine is actually highly optimized for what it does in terms of player performance. So yeah, maybe they could get it running at a higher resolution. But they also may feel that players would prefer to run at a locked framerate over one that fluctuates.

 

[benny_a]

Have you got links? Genuinely interested in this stuff and want to make sure I'm not going off half complete info...

Ofc memory size etc is relevant, as I said in the first post I'm not trying to make a broader point here.

I was mistaken, it was at GDC.

 

[EmptySpace]

So we can take from this that the Fox Engine is a pile of shite then!!??

when you consider that Fifa is 1080p/60 and looks graphically better than this?....and thats not even a new engine EA are using.

Konami should be ashamed of themselves....either that or there a bunch of lazy work shy shysters

fox engine is shite? mgs5 and pt look excellent.

and fifa doesn't look better than pes.

 

[Windom Earle]

Exactly. Apparently not well optimized either.

We have lots of evidence suggesting the days of 720p on XB1 are over. Then this game shows up. I'm inclined to say it's just shoddy work from the dev/engine.

hahaha

 

[justsomeguy]

I was mistaken, it was at GDC.

Thanks, will take a look when less tired

 

[_Ryo_]

But the Xbone version is supports 8 players! (locally) Ps4 is only half that.

But really, this is strange. Thought 720p days were gone and 900p was the standard now.

 

[Duxxy3]

Downloaded the demo for XB1...

this is not a good looking game by any definition. I'm sure it looks better on PS4, but it's a bad looking game on this system. Fifa looks clean, like a next gen game, and PES looks like a PS3 game.

Whatever the history behind all of this doesn't matter to what I'm seeing on these two games, on this system. It's not even close visually.

 

[Daviii]

Fifa is king on xbox , PES sales come from playstation

What's that supposed to mean? FIFA is more attached to PlayStation brand than chocolate to cocoa.

People basically play Fifa on their "play"(station)

That's true for the VAST majority of the casual gamers.

Plus, nothing is king on Xbox out of the US, and I doubt the Fifa sales are comparable to the EU/UK there so what kind of kingdom are we exactly talking about?

 

[BruiserBear]

Oh I dunno, at the same time I think the Xbox engineers knew getting to 1080p would be tough, which is why we have a unique three pane render system for XB1, which allows UI to be rendered in 1080p while the rest of the game runs at a lower resolution. Most multiplatform games don't utilize this though.

If I'm not mistaken even 360/PS3 games were capable of rendering their UI and game independently. Are you sure you're not connecting dots that are unrelated?

 

[chubigans]

If I'm not mistaken even 360/PS3 games were capable of rendering their UI and game independently. Are you sure you're not connecting dots that are unrelated?

It was always possible to do this on any console, but what I mean is XB1 now has that built into the tool base so that devs don't have to implement their own code. Kind of like how devs can either create their own save menus or just boot into the standard OS save menu.

 

[Conduit]

Saying the XB1 is not designed for 1080p is simply not accurate. It may not be able to pull it off as easily as the PS4, but we've already got a pile of evidence that suggests it's been designed to provide native 1080p games.

http://www.gengame.net/2013/05/xbox...t-end-graphics-to-target-broad-entertainment/

We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play,” said Greg Williams, one of the engineers who worked on Microsoft’s latest hardware box.

Around 5:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nhiQ7Ua_tzA#t=338

 

[Majmun]

Makes me wonder how MGSV and Silent Hills will perform on both platforms.

 

[mrb1972]

It should be pretty clear by now that the XBOne was designed to make great looking next generation games at 720p. MS expected Kinect to win hearts and minds like the Wii did before it and bet on black crush (boosted contrast) + sharpening to make the difference from 1080p negligible to the average person who sits much too far away from their TV than they should. They also trusted that their obfuscation and rhetoric would influence a rather clueless media industry.

They did not bet on savvy forum posters pointing out the machine's obvious GPU deficit in terms of ROPs, sharers and memory bandwidth and really taking the lead on educating the media and the masses.

Now that they're in a technological panic mode, they're scrambling engineers out to squeeze every last drop out of the machine, attempting to achieve parity wins on high profile cross gen games or non demanding titles with the likes of their mates at EA and continuing to obfuscate with DX12 - a low level API which will greatly enhance PC titles but that the One effectively had from the start.

Konami and their internally developed engine is not yet on Microsoft's radar.

Wow worst post in this thread, ridiculous

 

[Markitron]

Has anybody mentioned XB1 version's massive advantage over the PS4 version, Option files?

PS4 version won't support OF's, so the XB1 version can have all of the licences. If I had an XB1 I'd get that version for this reason alone

 

[Bgamer90]

http://www.gengame.net/2013/05/xbox...t-end-graphics-to-target-broad-entertainment/

We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play,” said Greg Williams, one of the engineers who worked on Microsoft’s latest hardware box.

Around 5:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nhiQ7Ua_tzA#t=338

That's the case with any console really. If consoles targeted the highest end graphics, then consoles would be more expensive. Price is a big reason why people enjoy console gaming.

That wasn't really in reference to "1080p".

 

[Spottiettiedop]

Downloaded the demo for XB1...

this is not a good looking game by any definition. I'm sure it looks better on PS4, but it's a bad looking game on this system. Fifa looks clean, like a next gen game, and PES looks like a PS3 game.

Whatever the history behind all of this doesn't matter to what I'm seeing on these two games, on this system. It's not even close visually.

Did the same thing and whoever says PES looks better than FIFA is not playing this on XB1 and if so are blind. No gameplay difference can make up for the graphic discrepancy. I'm downloading this on the PS4 now. Just curious of the differences.

 

[BruiserBear]

It was always possible to do this on any console, but what I mean is XB1 now has that built into the tool base so that devs don't have to implement their own code. Kind of like how devs can either create their own save menus or just boot into the standard OS save menu.

It still seems like you're taking an assumption and connecting your own dots though. Are you sure the three pane design isn't related to the console's overall design, with snapping, overlaying info over a TV broadcast, etc?

http://www.gengame.net/2013/05/xbox...t-end-graphics-to-target-broad-entertainment/

We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play,” said Greg Williams, one of the engineers who worked on Microsoft’s latest hardware box.

Around 5:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nhiQ7Ua_tzA#t=338

Nothing you just linked to suggests the console wasn't designed with 1080p in mind, which is the topic at hand.

 

[Bgamer90]

Based on the demo PES is infinitely better imo, there are some good discussions ongoing in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=869186&highlight=

Thanks I'll check it out. I already have FIFA 15 so I won't be buying PES this year but I might try it out next year.

 

[StuBurns]

The console obviously wasn't designed for 1080p/60fps, given the dedicated ram pool for the framebuffer's footprint is so small. They made a very specific decision, and that was to ship with 32mb of eSRAM. No one forced their hand, no one made this decision on their behalf, they're not stupid, they knew the implications and repercussions.

 

[Final Verdict]

I personally believe that Konami just isn't trying here.

They have always been a playstation focused developer, and I'm surprised that they don't just go ahead and make this a playstation exclusive.

How can we tell this is a case of bad optimization?

1.) Well you could use the argument that fiffa 15 is running at 1080p/60 on Xbone, and PES dosn't really have a huge graphical difference over fiffa.

2.) The GPU difference between the X1 and PS4 is roughly 50%. The pixel difference between 1080p & 720p is around 110%, and so they are not utilizing the GPU fully on the X1.

3.) The PS3 is running at 720p & 60 fps, so what gives? The Xbone's GPU is almost 7x more powerful than the PS3's, and it can't be a CPU problem because X1 and PS4 basically have the same CPU.

4.) It can't really be attributed to the FOX engine either. The FOX engine should run just about as well on X1 as it does on PS4 as their architectures are quite similar.

So like I said, in my opinion, this is just poor optimization for the game, and if they really just don't care about the X1 that much, then why even release an X1 version?

 

[Chobel]

It still seems like you're taking an assumption and connecting your own dots though. Are you sure the three pane design isn't related to the console's overall design, with snapping, overlaying info over a TV broadcast, etc?

Only one pane is for the System (OS, TV broadcast, Snap...), the others are for game rendering: one for HUD and one for the game.

In case of PS4, there are two panes: one for the OS and the other for game rendering.

 

[Patroclos]

Wow worst post in this thread, ridiculous

Not even a good one-liner to go with your drive by? Would you care to elaborate and tear him apart point by point? We'll be waiting for more nuggets of your brilliance.

 

[MavFan619]

Exactly. Apparently not well optimized either.

We have lots of evidence suggesting the days of 720p on XB1 are over. Then this game shows up. I'm inclined to say it's just shoddy work from the dev/engine.

Wasn't that semi recent Golf game 720p and we still don't know what Mordor is at. Here's hoping at least Mordor hits 900p or more.

 

[Kuni]

Actually a bit surprised. I thought with the ex-kinect boost that we would start to see at least 900p. I wouldn't be surprised to see if the next PES was 900p as this boost came out midway during this one's development. But on the other hand if MGSV is 720p that would be a bit rough.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Some of you have to realize the PS4 is just optimized much more for 1080p than the One. And to boot, it takes more work to get a closer result. If people say they cant tell the difference, why is a dev going to bother? The graphics will be the same, and you cant compare it to the last gen version cause obviously its going to look much better anyway.

 

[RdN]

Holy shit.. After MGS: Ground Zeroes and now this, it's pretty clear that Xbox One owners should stay clear of Konami games on the platform... At least until Microsoft steps in.

 

[Chobel]

I personally believe that Konami just isn't trying here.

They have always been a playstation focused developer, and I'm surprised that they don't just go ahead and make this a playstation exclusive.

How can we tell this is a case of bad optimization?

1.) Well you could use the argument that fiffa 15 is running at 1080p/60 on Xbone, and PES dosn't really have a huge graphical difference over fiffa.

2.) The GPU difference between the X1 and PS4 is roughly 50%. The pixel difference between 1080p & 720p is around 110%, and so they are not utilizing the GPU fully on the X1.

3.) The PS3 is running at 720p & 60 fps, so what gives? The Xbone's GPU is almost 7x more powerful than the PS3's, and it can't be a CPU problem because X1 and PS4 basically have the same CPU.

4.) It can't really be attributed to the FOX engine either. The FOX engine should run just about as well on X1 as it does on PS4 as their architectures are quite similar.

So like I said, in my opinion, this is just poor optimization for the game, and if they really just don't care about the X1 that much, then why even release an X1 version?

Your points doesn't prove it's bad optimization.
1) Different game and different engine
2) Probably because it's not GPU related, most likely eSRAM related
3) There's more to IQ than resolution (AA, textures, lighting...), Xbone version should have better IQ
4) They may be similar, but they're still not the same architecture. eSRAM is small, and if FOX engine use big frame buffers then it will cause some problem when developing xbone version.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

I personally believe that Konami just isn't trying here.

They have always been a playstation focused developer, and I'm surprised that they don't just go ahead and make this a playstation exclusive.

How can we tell this is a case of bad optimization?

1.) Well you could use the argument that fiffa 15 is running at 1080p/60 on Xbone, and PES dosn't really have a huge graphical difference over fiffa.

2.) The GPU difference between the X1 and PS4 is roughly 50%. The pixel difference between 1080p & 720p is around 110%, and so they are not utilizing the GPU fully on the X1.

3.) The PS3 is running at 720p & 60 fps, so what gives? The Xbone's GPU is almost 7x more powerful than the PS3's, and it can't be a CPU problem because X1 and PS4 basically have the same CPU.

4.) It can't really be attributed to the FOX engine either. The FOX engine should run just about as well on X1 as it does on PS4 as their architectures are quite similar.

So like I said, in my opinion, this is just poor optimization for the game, and if they really just don't care about the X1 that much, then why even release an X1 version?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more to graphics than resolution? Shaders, lighting, and different setting apply to graphics. PES has way more things going on than FIFA. Look at the picture posted above, PES has higher quality models than FIFA.

2) It doesn't work that way. Your thinking is flawed.

3) Like I said, more to graphics than just resolution. X1 most likely has better Shaders and aliasing.

4) Do you see Ground Zeros? 1080p 60fps on PS4 vs 720p 60fps on X1. And the PS4 version has a dynamic cloud system versus the static clouds in all other versions. FOX engine also ran great on the X1 as well.

I think people have been getting used to the parity seen in the last couple of games and forgot about the difference between the PS4 and X1.

Edit: Good job Chobel

 

[chubigans]

It still seems like you're taking an assumption and connecting your own dots though. Are you sure the three pane design isn't related to the console's overall design, with snapping, overlaying info over a TV broadcast, etc?

Chobel broke it down better:

Only one pane is for the System (OS, TV broadcast, Snap...), the others are for game rendering: one or HUD and one for the game.

In case of PS4, there are two panes: one for the OS and the other for game rendering.

MS created an extra pane for UI rendering at 1080p independent of the game's resolution. I can only assume they did this because they felt it would come in handy for rendering purposes for a lot of devs.

 

[El-Pistolero]

So Digital Foundry's reporting about the XB1 SDK being a mess at launch, and making huge improvements since then was bullshit? The devs they spoke to were lying? Tell us how deep the consistency goes.

The kinect reservation giving back 10% of the GPU to developers. Also bullshit?

You obviously have reading issues. Have another go at it...

 

[neogaffer1]

Wasn't that semi recent Golf game 720p and we still don't know what Mordor is at. Here's hoping at least Mordor hits 900p or more.

It's not like Golf Club is really pushing the system though. I think it's more of a matter of whether the dev wants to optimize for the Xbox One or just getting it working enough that it's playable.

(For comparison this is Powerstar Golf, an XB1 exclusive).

Edit: For those debating on whether the system was made for 1080p, there was some math a while ago but I forgot who posted it that basically said that the 16 MB eDRAM in the 360 was tailored to fit a single frame of linear rendered 720p, but that deferred rendering 720p was too big and so as a result deferred rendered games were usually 640p. For the XB1 it's supposed to be 32 MB eSRAM can hold a single linear rendered 1080p frame, but that deferred rendering meant that 1080p wouldn't fit. 900p with anti-aliasing barely fit in 32 MB iirc from that post.

 

[mrb1972]

Not even a good one-liner to go with your drive by? Would you care to elaborate and tear him apart point by point? We'll be waiting for more nuggets of your brilliance.

Not brilliance just common sense, they like most of us have no idea the exact hardware in the XB1 or PS4 - yet because they read one has more ROPS or whatever in the media they think they know everything.

 

[Ishida]

It's both.

The ESRAM is a necessity due to the slow DDR3 and lack of dedicated VRAM, but it's also a major hurdle when used as a cache. Games like this that use a deferred renderer fill it up really quickly even at 720p. It's nowhere near big enough for efficient 1080p.

Which wasn't an issue for MS because....

... they completely ignored AMD's own recommendation for for the number of raster units (ROPs) required for 1080. It has HALF the number of ROPs that AMD recommends, making it much less efficient at 1080 than it would be if it had the right number of ROPs. Of course that doesn't mean it can't reach 1080p, it just means it does so very inefficiently. That doesn't even take into account the reduced number of shader units (CUs) and other GPU features where it's at a major disadvantage. The GPU essentially has the same specs as a low-mid range Radeon from late 2011 or early 2012. That's the problem here. It's a console that was designed to have 8 gbs of DDR3 and everything else suffered as a result.



I realize that the ESRAM is not necessarily part of the GPU. But it's the reason that the GPU is as weak as it is due to how much space it takes up on the APU.

Wow... I can't believe Microsoft actually made so many mistakes while designing this console. One would think that they would learn a valuable lesson from last gen's Sony's mistakes, and that they would try to create the most powerful console in this new generation, at all costs.

Did Sony really catch them off guard this much?

 

[Vestax]

Wow worst post in this thread, ridiculous

Just because you disagree with it, or it offends you...it doesn't make it a bad post.

It actually makes sense, when look at objectively. Key word being objectively...

Reminds me of this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KbWgUO-Rqcw

 

[jengo]

Has anybody mentioned XB1 version's massive advantage over the PS4 version, Option files?

PS4 version won't support OF's, so the XB1 version can have all of the licences. If I had an XB1 I'd get that version for this reason alone

Yeah, even though I have a PS4 and love the feel of the demo...I am going to miss an easy "patch" to make it feel more legit through the awesome community's hard work :/

 

[SeanTSC]

Saying the XB1 is not designed for 1080p is simply not accurate. It may not be able to pull it off as easily as the PS4, but we've already got a pile of evidence that suggests it's been designed to provide native 1080p games.

Sure, maybe you can't say that "It wasn't designed for 1080p" and doing so is a little silly, but you can say that it was clearly not designed for games and engines with a large framebuffer and in hindsight that's incredibly unfortunate.

You can't really fault a developer for not gimping their engine down to make sure it the XB1 can handle it at 1080p and anyone calling Konami lazy because they won't compromise their engine to make it work with those hardware limitations is even more silly. People are just going to have to deal with the fact that the XB1 has to take a resolution hit on any game that won't hold its framebuffer back just for it.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I don't get posters like you at all. Grown men aswell

Just like the posts saying the gap is closing right?

Otherwise, I could care less about what your barometer of a grown man is.

 

[neogaffer1]

Wow... I can't believe Microsoft actually made so many mistakes while designing this console. One would think that they would learn a valuable lesson from last gen's Sony's mistakes, and that they would try to create the most powerful console in this new generation, at all costs.

Did Sony really catch them off guard this much?

They wanted 8 GB RAM no matter what from the beginning. At that time that meant having DDR3. As a result, they needed eSRAM to offset the low bandwidth, and that crippled the GPU. At the same time, Sony went for GDDR5. At first, this meant only 2 GB of RAM. Then GDDR5 prices fell and Sony was able to double that to 4 GB of RAM. Then prices lowered even further and Sony surprised everybody by revealing that they were going to have 8 GB of RAM (they had told devs that it ould be 4 GB and even the leaked specs said 4 GB).

MS's issues stem from betting on the wrong horse, really. DDR3 ended up going up in price because a factory fire crippled world production of it. So they couldn't increase the amount of DDR3 they had to obfuscate the fact that their GPU was weaker.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

Not brilliance just common sense, they like most of us have no idea the exact hardware in the XB1 or PS4 - yet because they read one has more ROPS or whatever in the media they think they know everything.

Obviously Gaf has members who are knowledgeable about these things. Penello was on Gaf swearing they would not give up more than a 30% difference to the PS4. Guess what? There were those who know about hardware and explained that we would see differences between the two.

 

[Duxxy3]

Your points doesn't prove it's bad optimization.
1) Different game and different engine
2) Probably because it's not GPU related, most likely eSRAM related
3) There's more to IQ than resolution (AA, textures, lighting...), Xbone version should have better IQ
4) They may be similar, but they're still not the same architecture. eSRAM is small, and if FOX engine use big frame buffers then it will cause some problem when developing xbone version.

End result, after checking out both XB1 demos today, is that FIFA looks like a generational leap over PES. Whatever the reasoning behind it, PES looks far worse. Attribute it to whatever you like, but one soccer game looks far better than the other.

It may be flipped on the PS4, I don't know. From my perspective though, it's not even close. If i were in the market for a soccer game (I'm not) and had a choice between these competing games, my choice would be easy.

 

[daman824]

Definitely could have bumped it up. Developers probably just aren't comfortable with the hardware.

When more demanding games are coming out at higher resolutions on xb1. And the gap now seems to have comfortably settled at 900p vs 1080p.

And this "games are going to get more demanding, harder to keep 900/1080p" arguments are stupid. Last gen games consistenly got better looking and the resolutions never dropped. Halo 4 was the best looking 360 game and ran at native 720p. Gta 4 ran lower than 720p on the ps3. Yet gta5 not only look significantly better, it ran at a higher resolution.

 

[mrb1972]

Just because you disagree with it, or it offends you...it doesn't make it a bad post.

It actually makes sense, when look at objectively. Key word being objectively...

Reminds me of this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KbWgUO-Rqcw

I'm not offended at all, but that post was just an opinion with no proof to back it up, a typical armchair dev who thinks they know everything but really know nothing

 

[THRILLH0]

You're praising the engine for being shittier on one platform?

This is a big day for a lot of Sony fans.

 

[Salex_]

Obviously Gaf has members who are knowledgeable about these things. Penello was on Gaf swearing they would not give up more than a 30% difference to the PS4. Guess what? There were those who know about hardware and explained that we would see differences between the two.

OT: Where is your avatar from?

 

[Patroclos]

Not brilliance just common sense, they like most of us have no idea the exact hardware in the XB1 or PS4 - yet because they read one has more ROPS or whatever in the media they think they know everything.

http://i.imgur.com/LRDjw4E.gif

I'm pretty sure everyone but you and MisterX knows what's in these boxes by now.