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[Kampfheld]

And? Most devs have said PS4 is ahead on the tools. His opinion doesn't change that. Do you want me to go grab the developer links on that score as well?

There are enough large, competent studios who tell something different. You select your quotes rather subjective.
I think know what I am talking about. Writing things to the metal =/ good tools. It never was Sonys strength to provide a great XDK. And that's fine, because on the other hand you have better specs to work with.

 

[evilalien]

Just the Xbox One? Do they have access to the Ps4?

Judging by his post history of mostly only posting in MS related threads, I am going to guess he is a XBone exclusive developer.

 

[Nozem]

Any day now Microsoft will finish Sony once and for all with the stacked DX12 stereo driver dGPU 4k SDK future tech dp ray tracing update.

any day now...

 

[Jack cw]

I love it. We've been cool with people posting their own personal wikipedia summaries for pages now but the experiences of a real live dev are instantly shut down.

It's a legit question though. We have many devs saying things and most of them favour PS4 architecture, I mean we see the results in real life. If that "dev" has access to both systems and states something like that than it's fine, but apparently that dev is a bit biased from what I hear.

 

[Amir0x]

I honestly haven't read any devs saying the PS4 is ahead on the tools lately. I think we all know that was the case at launch, but who knows now. All he's saying is that the PS4 is more powerful, the XB1 has better tools. That does not equate to the XB1 having technically superior games though.

The most recent comments I've seen are from 4A on the development of Metro, and it definitely seems like Microsoft has made tons of improvements but that PS4 is still ahead. It's harder to find quotes from within the past two months because people are talking about this less and less since launch, but has something changed in these last two months?

I guess he'd have to explain what has changed.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

Anyway, I'm not a developer or anything. But observing things with common sense (what I know its not always accurate) I can't connect this kind of disapirty to the console alone, specially cause the PS3 is running with the same specs. I understand the XB1 is less powerfull then the PS4, and maybe their tools are worst too, but come'on. We have games that certainly pushes the hardware more then PES is doing with not that disparity... and even not conidering it I can't see how the XB1 could be on the same level as the PS3.

Maybe I'm wrong I know. Buts thats hard to believe and I would need more evidences on this then just statemens blaming everything on the XB1 tools and hardware, since the console has done some great things already. The same goes to Monolith, if SoM is trully 720p/30fps.

 

[Marlenus]

CD Projekt said they think MS' tools are better, I believe. Not that it impacts the results all that much, W3 is still going to be better on PS4.

Where did they say this? From what I remember reading in the Eurogamer interview (Can't find it now though) they said that the Xbox One dev tools are more like DX11 than the PS4 ones so it was easier to go from PC to Xbox One than PC to PS4.

 

[TK Turk]

It's a legit question though. We have many devs saying things and most of them favour PS4 architecture, I mean we see the results in real life. If that "dev" has access to both systems and states something like that than it's fine, but apparently that dev is a bit biased from what I hear.

Do we see it in real life though? The PS4 has better hardware, we know this. If it had better tools, I believe the gaps in games would be much larger than what we've been seeing lately. Having stronger hardware AND better tools would be a huge advantage.

 

[Codes4Food]

Maybe a decade ago but not so much the case anymore. In the gaming space just compare the PS4's launch dev tools to the Xbox. You're trying to perpetuate the Albert Penello myth that software can make up for hardware and that Sony devs are incompetent. The ICE Team are certainly not.

What is your definition of tools? In reality most Sony and cross platform devs use m$ tools, because they are much better. Now if you are referring the the sdk/APIs well the only real gotcha on the m$ side is the esram. This is quite well documented now.

Software obviously can't make up for a power gap, but poorly written/unoptimized code will still not run optimally no matter what hardware.

 

[Dragon]

Don't CD Projekt have some kind of partnership with MS on W3?

Yes they do. CD Projekt are largely hypocritical as they supported a company like MS while supporting DRM-free places like Gog.

Do we see it in real life though? The PS4 has better hardware, we know this. If it had better tools, I believe the gaps in games would be much larger than what we've been seeing lately. Having stronger hardware AND better tools would be a huge advantage.

You need to set some guidelines on what your expectations are. What's a large gap? When does that become a small gap? How many fingers am I holding up?

 

[StuBurns]

Don't CD Projekt have some kind of partnership with MS on W3?

I don't know, I think they said exclusive content was stupid, so I doubt it. Obviously they showed gameplay with them at E3 though. Either way, I doubt they'd lie to appease the overlords.

 

[Kampfheld]

Do you have PS4 devkit? last time you said you don't have good relationship with Sony.

If this true, it means PS4 has more area to improve in the future. The gap will increase?

Don't quote me on things I never said please. We had some problems with Sony. I never said something about bad relationship with them. These problems are only technical and have to do with the server providings we are not happy with because of some heavy limitations. And yes, obviously we have PS4 kits.

 

[TK Turk]

The most recent comments I've seen are from 4A on the development of Metro, and it definitely seems like Microsoft has made tons of improvements but that PS4 is still ahead. It's harder to find quotes from within the past two months because people are talking about this less and less since launch, but has something changed in these last two months?

I guess he'd have to explain what has changed.

I am probably mistaken then, I just don't recall reading anything about the development of Metro. If PS4 has better tools, I'd just honestly expect larger gaps than what we've seen thus far. Even metro was 900 vs 1080p I think.

 

[Amir0x]

I am probably mistaken then, I just don't recall reading anything about the development of Metro. If PS4 has better tools, I'd just honestly expect larger gaps than what we've seen thus far. Even metro was 900 vs 1080p I think.

Yeah, read the interview with 4A here

They definitely make it clear PS4 makes the better job of it, but they just keep saying Microsoft is improving the XDK every day.

I'm not doubting Kampfheld believes what he says, but I have to weigh the evidence. So far, every developer I've ever seen comment from launch until now has said PS4 has superior tools. That has to be valued more than the opinion of a single person.

 

[Jack cw]

Do we see it in real life though? The PS4 has better hardware, we know this. If it had better tools, I believe the gaps in games would be much larger than what we've been seeing lately. Having stronger hardware AND better tools would be a huge advantage.

It's enough for me when I look at the resolutions, framerates and effect difference in all those multiplattform games that perform much better on PS4. Sure, raw power and all, but you still need some decent tools to achieve it. I know Sony was never been that good with their complicated and Japanese documentation but apparently things got better and if Kampfheld speaks the truth, then PS4 does not only have the power advantage but also an XDK to improve, which is honestly really good news.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Don't quote me on things I never said please. We had some problems with Sony. I never said something about bad relationship with them. These problems are only technical and have to do with the server providings we are not happy with because of some heavy limitations. And yes, obviously we have PS4 kits.

 

[Mastperf]

Don't quote me on things I never said please. We had some problems with Sony. I never said something about bad relationship with them. These problems are only technical and have to do with the server providings we are not happy with because of some heavy limitations. And yes, obviously we have PS4 kits.

Are you able to give an idea of the power difference between the two? Is the 40-50% number accurate in your estimation?

 

[vpance]

Don't CD Projekt have some kind of partnership with MS on W3?

I think it's more that they're comfortable with DX11, which is Xbone's wheelhouse.

 

[TK Turk]

It's enough for me when I look at the resolutions, framerates and effect difference in all those multiplattform games that perform much better on PS4. Sure, raw power and all, but you still need some decent tools to achieve it. I know Sony was never been that good with their complicated and Japanese documentation but apparently things got better and if Kampfheld speaks the truth, then PS4 does not only have the power advantage but also an XDK to imrove, wich is honestly really good news.

Yup, this means that PS4 has more to improve than Xbox One which is great for PS4 owners.

 

[Kayant]

There are enough large, competent studios who tell something different. You select your quotes rather subjective.
I think know what I am talking about. Writing things to the metal =/ good tools. It never was Sonys strength to provide a great XDK. And that's fine, because on the other hand you have better specs to work with.

Like who?
CD Projekt?

Are you referring to the use and interaction with the development kit/environment? If so that makes sense to me.

 

[Chobel]

Don't quote me on things I never said please. We had some problems with Sony. I never said something about bad relationship with them. These problems are only technical and have to do with the server providings we are not happy with because of some heavy limitations. And yes, obviously we have PS4 kits.

OK, sorry about the bad wording. English is not my first language. It was just paraphrasing from "In fact, currently we are only working on the XBO version due to some ... Lets say ... Disagreement with Sony."

You say XDK is better than PS4 SDK, if you're not currently working in PS4 version how can you compare the two? Are you working now with PS4 version? or Sony hasn't updated SDK since last time you worked with PS4?

 

[StuBurns]

Where did they say this? From what I remember reading in the Eurogamer interview (Can't find it now though) they said that the Xbox One dev tools are more like DX11 than the PS4 ones so it was easier to go from PC to Xbox One than PC to PS4.

I've read that too, but no, I was referring to their appearance on the Bombcast during E3 primarily.

 

[Codes4Food]

Are you able to give an idea of the power difference between the two? Is the 40-50% number accurate in your estimation?

It's not really possible unless both systems are running the same OS, have the same API, and are executing the same code. Any estimation or benchmark you can do will account for OS, APIs, code quality/optimization and the hardware.

 

[Bishop89]

so good, g'damn

its not him dude, its just a coincidence they share the same name.

 

[foxbeldin]

That's a different mrb1972 though.

So many of them, i can't keep track these days.

 

[Dragon]

I've read that too, but no, I was referring to their appearance on the Bombcast during E3 primarily.

Yeah I remember that too. That guy was pretty smug about it from what I remember.

It's not really possible unless both systems are running the same OS, have the same API, and are executing the same code. Any estimation or benchmark you can do will account for OS, APIs, code quality/optimization and the hardware.

That's why it's easier to compare on hardware and not say that software is going to bridge a pretty big gap...

 

[Codes4Food]

Yup, this means that PS4 has more to improve than Xbox One which is great for PS4 owners.

Assuming Sony updates and optimizes, of course.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

I've read that too, but no, I was referring to their appearance on the Bombcast during E3 primarily.

Was Phil Spencer part of that panel ?

 

[Marlenus]

It's not really possible unless both systems are running the same OS, have the same API, and are executing the same code. Any estimation or benchmark you can do will account for OS, APIs, code quality/optimization and the hardware.

Of course it is possible, the numbers will have a larger error bar vs PC benchmark comparisons due to those other factors but the hardware is by a very large margin the biggest differentiator when it comes to performance.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

So many of them, i can't keep track these days.

I believe his friend was logged in his laptop back then, so it was probably his mate instead.

 

[Kaydan]

Maybe a decade ago but not so much the case anymore. In the gaming space just compare the PS4's launch dev tools to the Xbox. You're trying to perpetuate the Albert Penello myth that software can make up for hardware and that Sony devs are incompetent. The ICE Team are certainly not.

Umm yeah, it can. Any programmer will tell you this. Most of the time you can achieve better performance results by optimizing your code than by adding more raw power in the back-end.

 

[StuBurns]

It's not really possible unless both systems are running the same OS, have the same API, and are executing the same code. Any estimation or benchmark you can do will account for OS, APIs, code quality/optimization and the hardware.

No one is talking about some abstracted concept of the performance minus those things. With the consoles running exactly the same game, if one can draw it with 50% more resolution at the same framerate, you are seeing a 50% improvement on performance from one system to another. For example 900p versus 1080p, shockingly.

Was Phil Spencer part of that panel ?

I can't remember, sorry.

 

[Ricky_R]

its not him dude, its just a coincidence they share the same name.

That's a different mrb1972 though.

 

[Jack cw]

Assuming Sony updates and optimizes, of course.

Why wouldn't they? They did that with PS1,2 and 3. Remember games from the PS3 launch period and what happened in the last few years of its cycle? PS4 has been cut to the western market and we will see much better results in the next few years. Sony needs that knowledge for their next system, so it would be stupid to just leave it as it is.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

I don't get what is the problem with his avatar. Cares to point that out?

 

[Codes4Food]

Yeah I remember that too. That guy was pretty smug about it from what I remember.



That's why it's easier to compare on hardware and not say that software is going to bridge a pretty big gap...

It's not necessarily easier. You have to account for all things to form an accurate conclusion. One could have an inefficient OS, API, SDK, etc which could limit your hardware (this could be on the system that has better or worse hardware).

 

[Marlenus]

Umm yeah, it can. Any programmer will tell you this.Most of the time you can achieve better performance results by optimizing your code than by adding more raw power in the back-end.

Up to a point, eventually the hardware becomes the limiting factor and that is where we are with the console software tools. They can still make improvements on both sets of APIs but the biggest limiting factor is defiantly the hardware.

 

[Chobel]

Assuming Sony updates and optimizes, of course.

Does Sony have history of slow updates to SDK?

 

[Paganmoon]

Umm yeah, it can. Any programmer will tell you this. Most of the time you can achieve better performance results by optimizing your code than by adding more raw power in the back-end.

But that goes for both companies, MS can optimize to catch up, Sony can optimize to keep the gap, no? Or are you saying only MS will/can optimize it's code, and bridge the 40-50% hardware gap?

 

[Kezen]

That's a different mrb1972 though.

I don't understand why he has to deny what's plain obvious. He has his preferences, nothing wrong with that but he shouldn't let them cloud facts.

 

[Soulrak]

Clearly a developer issue. Absolutely no excuse for this but flat out laziness. Which,PES devs are known for. This was always going to be a PS4 game for me anyway, so it won't effect me. But a damn shame for loyal Xbox One users. The system & their fans deserve better than that.

 

[BruiserBear]

IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY, the PS4 proves it is demonstrably significantly more powerful. Developers say it, the specs prove it, the games show it.

In terms of raw hardware power, definitely yes. No doubt.
In terms of XDK optimization / tools, definitely no.

All Kampfheld is saying here is that the extreme statement that "EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY" is not accurate. Of course people jumped on this, because this thread is all about extreme statements.

 

[Codes4Food]

No one is talking about some abstracted concept of the performance minus those things. With the consoles running exactly the same game, if one can draw it with 50% more resolution at the same framerate, you are seeing a 50% improvement on performance from one system to another. For example 900p versus 1080p, shockingly.

I can't remember, sorry.

What two consoles are running the exact same game, with the same code?

 

[NickFire]

I don't understand why he has to deny what's plain obvious. He has his preferences, nothing wrong with that but he shouldn't let them cloud facts.

I like how you worked cloud in there. Bravo.

 

[Kampfheld]

Oh sry, I forgot a dev is a robot that is not allowed to have his own opinion and favorites ... That surely disqualifies me.

Are you able to give an idea of the power difference between the two? Is the 40-50% number accurate in your estimation?

You can not calculate it like that. It always depends on your engine. The raw power on PS4 is better. This is a simple fact. However, and I need to be very careful here with these kind of statements, but in its current state, the Azure providings will make some of you guys here on Gaf speechless in future. I know, I know ... "Dat cloud dat cloud". Well, it is still a long way to go and Gaf does not want to jump on the cloud train yet - and I can totally understand that because of lacking showings.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

I don't understand why he has to deny what's plain obvious. He has his preferences, nothing wrong with that but he shouldn't let them cloud facts.

 

[KainXVIII]

MXM blog is hilarious.

Just wow

 

[Codes4Food]

Does Sony have history of slow updates to SDK?

Sony is not known for their Software or speed in updates

 

[CoG]

Umm yeah, it can. Any programmer will tell you this. Most of the time you can achieve better performance results by optimizing your code than by adding more raw power in the back-end.

Sure, comparing horrible code to well-written code, yes. A quadratic function vs a linear implementation for example. In the gaming space most of the action takes place on the GPU. So whether it's DX or OpenGL nothing in the software layer is going to make a substantially weaker part perform at the same level as one with more processing power on the die. OpenGL and DirectX are just interfaces to send instructions to the GPU and both are fairly mature.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

So many of them, i can't keep track these days.

I knew a mrb1969 at school and he was always trying to convince me to get rid of my Spectrum and buy an Oric Atmos because they were 'fucking ex'