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Female gamers, devs discuss Bayonetta's portrayal of women in games

Teknoman

Member
wiiu_screenshot_tv_01nnoyz.jpg


I don't how anybody can find this character cool, or fitting for an action game, shit like this just put's me off a game completely. it's a shame cause i loved MGSR, hoping the franchise dies and they can start making cool charters like jetstream sam and monsoon.

Have you seen the rest of what she actually does? The entire prologue chapter has her doing more awesomely stylish things than most in an entire game. And no, her vagina does not glow >_>
 

Taruranto

Member
I think there was a thing where some people on 4chan got really mad that someone on tumblr used their creation. Kind of a funny switcheroo to use the character to actually promote "sjw" causes

Checking /v/ archive right now, and that indeed appears to have happened.

Hilarious.
 

gconsole

Member
I have absolutely np problem with Bayo design or camera angle. I dont really care most of the time. It is an over the top action videogame from japan. What do you expect?

Some people take things too serious.
 
Interesting perspectives. I'm mostly on the side of she-owns-her-sexuality but there are some disturbing issues with the camera + things that happen during cutscenes.
 

Kelthink

Member
I have absolutely np problem with Bayo design or camera angle. I dont really care most of the time. It is an over the top action videogame from japan. What do you expect?

Some people take things too serious.

Some people view women as objects. This kind of thing reinforces their perspective.
 
I have absolutely np problem with Bayo design or camera angle. I dont really care most of the time. It is an over the top action videogame from japan. What do you expect?

Some people take things too serious.
"It's from Japan" is not an excuse for poor representation or over-sexualisation of women. Neither is "What do you expect?", as though people should just shut up and take it, like they're the ones at fault for not just blindly accepting whatever is thrown at them.
 
While I'm not a woman I think the idea of Bayonetta being in any way empowering or not sexist is ridiculous especially with the comments the makers have made on the subject.

I haven't actually played Bayo though so my opinion is limited by that. But I've seen multiple trailers and lots of gameplay. Not once have I though that it looked positive or empowering at all.
 
While I'm not a woman I think the idea of Bayonetta being in any way empowering or not sexist is ridiculous especially with the comments the makers have made on the subject.

I haven't actually played Bayo though so my opinion is limited by that. But I've seen multiple trailers and lots of gameplay. Not once have I though that it looked positive or empowering at all.
The "empowerment" comes from the idea that in both games, she is essentially the most powerful being in that universe. Whatever shit gets thrown at her, she beats it (mostly) effortlessly.

It also stems from the fact that she is a woman in a genre (hack n slash) that doesn't offer feature women.

That said, the camera angles and the poses she makes are often very "male gaze"-y and it does put off a lot of people.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Once you see the sequences (like the crotch shots) in the actual game and you follow the full over the top story and cutscenes you understand that whatever Bayonetta is doing is not out of place within the game and it perfectly fits the story and her character. Everything is justified (as justified as it can be anything in this game). Without playing the game you are just judging some pictures or video through your own biased filter and without having the full context.

You might like or dislike the story or the character itself and that's fine, just avoid making a judgement without having the context.

Edit: that's why there is a clear difference of opinions between those who played the game and those who didn't, even in the article. Because it makes sense in a nonsensical way.
 

cerulily

Member
While I'm not a woman I think the idea of Bayonetta being in any way empowering or not sexist is ridiculous especially with the comments the makers have made on the subject.

(i hate that i am using this term) As a women (blegh) i can understand this argument. As long as she aligns with your own ideas of sexuality for yourself. But, i think that justification ends there. Bayonetta is an acceptable representation of women sexuality only insomuch as it reinforces your own ideas of sexuality. As soon as you don't align with that, the whole thing falls apart.

Then the argument can be made that, a lot of the things that makes bayonetta sexy are representative of what men like to see on women. Heels, makeup, glasses fetish, bondage (joy enemy execution). If you don't like or find heels sexy, it is hard to justify to you why it's empowering.

That's just an example of how i reason it, of course. As all things subjective, i think people should recognize there is no "right" way to look at the issue. But, legitimacy HAS to be given to women whose sexuality doesn't align with the character.
 

Teknoman

Member
Well there was also pizza pants Dante, which unexpected, so we'll see if the next Devil may cry manages to top that.

I think Ninja Theory tried to push DMC more into comedic male sexuality displays...can't really think of anything before that.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Bayonetta the character constantly breaks the fourth wall. This short trailer was the first glimpse of her Platinum released to the public. The first thing she says, looking straight out at the camera, is, "You want to touch me?" And when the camera does the pervy slow mo, panning undercarriage shot, she strikes a pose and purrs, "Bad boy." In the actual game, the first time you see her in her costume, she hangs in the sky in a messianic pose while spotlights appear from nowhere to illuminate her. She constantly cuts her eyes at the camera in cinematics and blows kisses at the screen. She knows she's got an audience and she's hamming it up for their entertainment. That has always been the conception of the character, from the very beginning.

People getting bent out of shape over the sexuality are not reading the context properly. Bayonetta is burlesque, in both senses of the word. The saucy, hyper-sexualized stuff shares about equal time with ridiculous physical comedy, callbacks and references to previous games the devs have worked on, and superhuman action scenes.

Bayonetta's proportions go straight past idealized into the absurd. She's seven feet tall, has a pin head, legs longer than a normal woman's entire body, and hips wider than her shoulders. She looks deliberately comical when she crouches down to wield a katana or a slide trombone and is a ridiculous jumble of legs when you make her breakdance. Bayonetta's more about being outrageous on every possible level than actually trying to get you off.

It's completely high camp. Like others, Bayonetta reminds me more of a drag queen than an agent of my personal fantasies. Her persona is larger than life, she's doing exactly what she wants at all times, and she's pretty damn funny. Rather than asking a bunch of unknown female devs, half of whom have refused to even engage with the material due to their own preconceptions, what they think of Bayonetta and her game, I'd be more interested in what John Waters has to say.

Excellent post. I agree with this (and some of the points made in the OP) that the entirety of her character is built on over-the-top, campy, showboaty-type mannerisms that would probably be right at home on stage at a drag show.
 

Nemmy

Member
Once you see the sequences (like the crotch shots) in the actual game and you follow the full over the top story and cutscenes you understand that whatever Bayonetta is doing is not out of place within the game and it perfectly fits the story and her character. Everything is justified (as justified as it can be anything in this game). Without playing the game you are just judging some pictures or video through your own biased filter and without having the full context.

You might like or dislike the story or the character itself and that's fine, just avoid making a judgement without having the context.


Edit: that's why there is a clear difference of opinion between those who played the game and those who didn't, even in the article. Because it makes sense in a nonsensical way.

Nailed it.
I'm actually honestly surprised the article featured opinions not based by any actual experience with the game.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Nailed it.
I'm actually honestly surprised the article featured opinions not based by any actual experience with the game.
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?
 

SystemBug

Member
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

No you have to play the whole game! Shes flaunting her sexuality at her enemies to make them feel uncomfortable - look how powerful she is! The enemy is the camera btw.
 

Duster

Member
Saying Mari Shimazaki's internalised sexism played a part in designing Bayonetta seems a bit wrong to me, at least without a quote to back it up.
 
(i hate that i am using this term) As a women (blegh) i can understand this argument. As long as she aligns with your own ideas of sexuality for yourself. But, i think that justification ends there. Bayonetta is an acceptable representation of women sexuality only insomuch as it reinforces your own ideas of sexuality. As soon as you don't align with that, the whole thing falls apart.

Then the argument can be made that, a lot of the things that makes bayonetta sexy are representative of what men like to see on women. Heels, makeup, glasses fetish, bondage (joy enemy execution). If you don't like or find heels sexy, it is hard to justify to you why it's empowering.

That's just an example of how i reason it, of course. As all things subjective, i think people should recognize there is no "right" way to look at the issue. But, legitimacy HAS to be given to women whose sexuality doesn't align with the character.

I think I understand your point, but I don't think Bayonetta is so much about sexuality than just power in a uniquely female way. Here's a brilliant article on the subject. I don't think the power fantasy itself is terribly difficult to appreciate, but I think her brand of sexiness -- as others have said -- is very much her own thing, and probably won't align with very many if any of her audience.
 
That's how I always saw it.

lol, the character eventually losing some clothes within battles is as unspectacular as it gets and hardly even matters. You rather wanna pay attention to the complex action surrounding you, unless your content with constant game overs.
 
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least). And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?
No ?

How could you possibly judge something correctly if you didn't experience it in it's entirety (and by that I don't mean 100%ing everything)?

It is like reading the first 50 pages of Lord of the Rings and calling the books boring drivel.

It is unfair. I don't think it is too much to ask someone to play through a game at least once before giving their opinion on such a complicated issue...let alone accusing the developers of being... yeah...
 
To me all this says is that the same thing can have a different effect on different people. Some women may like playing bayonetta and I've heard it described as a "female power fantasy" by female friends, while others see it as sexist dreck on the same level as Senran Kagura. You may like it you may not, pretty much everyone's viewpoint is valid.

Personally I like the series, and my girlfriend enjoys it too, she actually finds the overt sexuality funny, does that make it not sexist? No, it doesn't, and if it is sexist does that me it can't be empowering to women? Of course not. I mean the fact that we even debate this is amazing enough when games that are more, or even less, overtly sexual aren't given near as much of a discussion.

Though waht do I know, we live in a world where The Wolf of Wall street, literally the most sexist film I've ever seen, was nominated for multiple Oscars.
 

Sloane

Banned
It is unfair. I don't think it is too much to ask someone to play through a game at least once before giving their opinion on such a complicated issue...let alone accusing the developers of being... yeah...
What if you're too disgusted by what is shown in gameplay videos and trailers to play it though? I haven't bought the game for that very reason, although, admittedly, I'm not accusing the developers of anything.
 
What if you're too disgusted by what is shown in gameplay videos and trailers to play it though? I haven't bought the game for that very reason, although, admittedly, I'm not accusing the developers of anything.

That's perfectly fine if the tone and style of the game makes you not want to play it. But it's also perfectly fine that some people wouldn't really value your opinion of the game for that very reason.
 

Hero

Member
What if you're too disgusted by what is shown in gameplay videos and trailers to play it though? I haven't bought the game for that very reason, although, admittedly, I'm not accusing the developers of anything.

That's your definition of disgusting?
 

Nemmy

Member
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

My answer is playing through the full game IS kind of necessary if you want to form an actually well-informed opinion on a character in that game. Or watching a full playthrough if for some reason that is more up your alley.
Also the question was not sorely about the "sexual aspect." It's about the character, her presentation and how she's perceived by the audience, the sexual aspect is just a part of the question:

#3. How do you feel about the way that the Bayonetta franchise presents its female characters, especially the lead playable character, "Bayonetta"? Do you think there are problematic / sexist elements involved, or "over-sexualization" of the females? On the other hand, do you find Bayonetta, as a "strong female lead" to be an empowering character in any way?

How can you comment on a character, their presentation, whether or not they're empowering and/or "problematic" if you only saw a demo (a small fraction of the full presentation) or "some videos"? You can say "there's nudity" or "there are camera angles" or "the girl is very confident" or "the girl drops f-bombs" after that, sure. But you've seen a part of the bigger whole, and you have no idea what follows, how the character grows after that, how she interacts with others, how she reacts to situations you don't even know exist.
Would you comment on a game's story based on a demo, or assume such a comment to be of the same value as a comment of someone who beat the game to completion?

EDIT:
That's perfectly fine if the tone and style of the game makes you not want to play it. But it's also perfectly fine that some people wouldn't really value your opinion of the game for that very reason.
Quoting this for truth.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
No ?

How could you possibly judge something correctly if you didn't experience it in it's entirety (and by that I don't mean 100%ing everything)?
I'm not talking about writing a review, I'm talking about having a valid opinion on one aspect. It's preposterous to say that you can't have a valid opinion about a game's choice of sexualization without playing the full game. It's like, say, liking or disliking the music. You play a bit of the game, and hate the music. Now unless the musical style changes drastically or compositions suddenly spike in improvement midway through the game, I'd say you're well entitled to say you hate the game's soundtrack even if you didn't play it. At that point you have enough information to have an informed opinion.

If those women's opinions are uninformed, then you could explain what it is they're missing exactly.

It is like reading the first 50 pages of Lord of the Rings and calling the books boring drivel.
If someone is bored shitless by reading 50 pages of LotR, I doubt they're going to be suddenly interested 100 pages or 300 pages into it? Unless the book is a slow burner, obviously. But even there, that'd be an opinion of the full product, not just one aspect of it. I'd say a better analogy would be "it's like reading 50 pages of Lord of the Rings and calling the prose bloated and boring". The prose likely won't change as the books progress, so one's opinion of the prose can be informed quite early in.

It is unfair. I don't think it is too much to ask someone to play through a game at least once before giving their opinion on such a complicated issue...let alone accusing the developers of being... yeah...
Like I said, if you feel the opinion is uninformed, you could explain why that is. As for accusing the developers, those who said that were basing their accusations on interviews. Whether they were fair or not in their accusations I can't say, since the URLs to these interviews were dead.

Edit: Nemmy, you seem to address most of my questions in your post above, so thanks for that.
 
That's perfectly fine if the tone and style of the game makes you not want to play it.But it's also perfectly fine that some people wouldn't really value your opinion of the game for that very reason.

But his/her opinion is not about the game, it's about the character design. it's like telling people they have to play the game to judge the graphics.
 

NotLiquid

Member
The camera angle argument is always funny to me because it refuses to acknowledge the general audacity associated with the enterprises Kamiya are responsible for. Anyone versed with the principles in regards to the high octane action games like Devil May Cry and Viewtiful Joe (which was a game designed purely around the agency of cinematography) would probably be aware that the games play heavily with the aspect of the entire game being a "show" in a sense, and that the characters are what drive the party. While Kamiya didn't direct the post-DMC games, Itsuno who took over was someone who realized this better than anyone prior to Bayonetta one-upping it. Just look at the DMC4 cutscene of Dante and Agnus. This kind of cheesy, over-the-top display where the characters are openly aware of, and taking advantage of the display, is paramount to the levity associated with the games and characters. Overall it's not to be taken seriously. It doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism, but at the same time the levity and lack of a serious tone is not presented without context.

Bayonetta is no exception to that, with it's cinematography sense being mostly reminiscent of DMC4 more than anything else. The evidence is enough in just how the cinematography is prioritized. The very first moment Bayonetta actually shows up in her signature attire, it's capped off with stage spotlights shining from every angle. At that point she is essentially in "charge" of each moment, and whatever camera angle from that point is deliberately in conjunction with specific actions taken by her. It's never the case anywhere outside of those moments, as more often than not in regular cutscenes the camera always focuses on Bayonetta's facial features rather than random shots of her provocative parts. That tends to be the big problem with all of the male gaze elements of many games, but I don't think Bayonetta really applies to the same category. Is Bayonetta deliberately sexual? Sure. But to say the camera doesn't play to her overall strengths in terms of character and ability is arguably wrong.

It's true that these things exist as deliberate, conscious choices, but a good creator can remove that overall sense of disconnect if there's enough context within the presentation that you can believe in the idea that the characters have legitimate agency. I wouldn't say it's wrong to dislike Bayonetta though. She's a character that means a lot of things to different people. She's not really a character for everyone either. That aside, it's clear she's made with enough care to work in the context of what's presented.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

The demo is not enough, because the demo doesn't details the story. As a bare minimum you have to watch and play the prologues of Bayo 1 and 2 I would say. That at list will give you the idea what the game and its characters want to be.

Edit: and read or watch how the Bayo 1 ends if don't want to play it, it will give you the idea of what this game is about and think about if anything can be out of place in this kind of game.
 

Sloane

Banned
That's perfectly fine if the tone and style of the game makes you not want to play it. But it's also perfectly fine that some people wouldn't really value your opinion of the game for that very reason.
Fair enough. I probably wouldn't call it an opinion of the game myself but an impression, if anything -- just wanted to point out that a "play through the game at least once" rule might make it very difficult for people, who don't like the game or its style, to join the discussion.
 
of course the character is sexist, trying to show off her tits and ass practically the whole game, even with her move set.
The fact that your posts are accompanied by a Ninja Gaiden avatar makes it difficult to take you seriously.
Nothing in Bayonetta is as grossly 'sexist' as the stuff in those games.
 
The "empowerment" comes from the idea that in both games, she is essentially the most powerful being in that universe. Whatever shit gets thrown at her, she beats it (mostly) effortlessly.

It also stems from the fact that she is a woman in a genre (hack n slash) that doesn't offer feature women.

That said, the camera angles and the poses she makes are often very "male gaze"-y and it does put off a lot of people.

Well I've seen plenty of anime with uber powerful girls and not one of them felt like they were empowering women. Being powerful doesn't actually mean shit in my book.
 
And still to this day no one brings up the fact that she literally inspired herself from a child to become the woman she is today.

Y'all basic.
 

Foggy

Member
There's a world of a difference between "I played this game for a little bit/saw some previews and I don't think I'll like it because it looks like it has sexualization isues" and "I played this game for a little bit/saw some previews and it is sexist". The latter is just lazy and disrespectful. If you look at previews and you see that Bayonetta loses clothes during attacks then you come to the conclusion that her losing clothes is a reward. You actually play a significant amount of the game and you realize the game is such a MASSIVE sensory overload of images that looking for that as titillation is the same as trying to get off on Tyler Durden dick pics in Fight Club. Playing a large portion of the game means absorbing the constant tongue-in-cheek sexualization of the game and realizing it's having too much goofy fun to be seen as creepy. But hey, let's say you do play the game and you don't come to those realizations. At least then you can have a conversation about how those things DON'T mitigate the strong sexualization of the game and that's an awesome conversation to have! It's substantial and actually helps push dialogue to how sexualization can and can't be used. All the severe criticisms I read about Bayonetta's sexualization don't even attempt to address what the game does differently, it all reads like "hyper-sexualization is bad, this game has lots of it, and Bayonetta is bad".
 
But his/her opinion is not about the game, it's about the character design. it's like telling people they have to play the game to judge the graphics.

It's not just an interview about her design. It's an interview about her as a character, how the series handles female characters in general, and the overall franchise. Those are questions that are obviously hard to answer without playing it.

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't call it an opinion of the game myself but an impression, if anything -- just wanted to point out that a "play through the game at least once" rule might make it very difficult for people, who don't like the game or its style, to join the discussion.

I don't think they should have to play it to present their view of the game. If the content is so offputting that you don't want to play it, then that's fine. You're obviously free to say whatever you want about a game without having played it. I was just saying that for some people that would mean that they wouldn't value that persons opinion as they'd feel that little experience with said game.
 
The fact that your posts are accompanied by a Ninja Gaiden avatar makes it difficult to take you seriously.


Yeah, just realised one of the more vocal dudes about this actually comes with a Team Ninja avatar...
(Honestly, I also don't even mind the Ninja Gaiden females. Storywise it's the equivalent of so-bad-its-good Steven Seagal shlock and it accompanies an over the top feeling. Portrayals of testosterone ridden space marines aren't that much better - still, it fits the criteria of this critiscism a milltion times better than Bayonetta).
 
The fact that your posts are accompanied by a Ninja Gaiden avatar makes it difficult to take you seriously.
Nothing in Bayonetta is as grossly 'sexist' as the stuff in those games.

please explain how the fuck is ninja gaiden black and ninja gaiden 2 sexist, if you're talking about the blond girl in the game, she only shows up like in 1 or 2 cut scenes. it's not something you have to deal with the whole game.
 

Majukun

Member
Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

do you usually judge characters in a movie from a trailer too?

it's usually better to know well what you are talking about..it's not that hard of a thing to understand

that being said,I think this argument has already been beated to death,why are we puppeteering the corpse?
 

TI82

Banned
Also not a fan of this and the "oh its from Japan" or "its over the top 4th wall breaking" etc shit doesn't make it any better.

Reminds me of loli-con and the "oh she's a 100000 year old wolf spirit that just chooses to be represented as a 7 year old girl don't be so close minded" shit.

Just sucks because it seems to have good gameplay design (for that genre) but they have to mar it with this very divisive art style.

Like for example: at work yesterday this kid came in (around 13) to get hyrule warriors. I asked him if he had seen Bayo 2 since he has a Wii u and seems to like action games. He got excited about the cover obviously but his mother saw it and was instantly like "no, that is not appropriate" and I don't blame her for that at all.
 
I'm still puzzled that there are people who have problems with Bayonetta as a character but taken out of context I get why her representation might be offending.

I always felt that the representation was totally tongue in cheek and drag queen-esque like the othet poster illustrated.
 

Majukun

Member
Like for example: at work yesterday this kid came in (around 13) to get hyrule warriors. I asked him if he had seen Bayo 2 since he has a Wii u and seems to like action games. He got excited about the cover obviously but his mother saw it and was instantly like "no, that is not appropriate" and I don't blame her for that at all.
game is rated for 16+,so his mother did well.
 
Like for example: at work yesterday this kid came in (around 13) to get hyrule warriors. I asked him if he had seen Bayo 2 since he has a Wii u and seems to like action games. He got excited about the cover obviously but his mother saw it and was instantly like "no, that is not appropriate" and I don't blame her for that at all.

The game wouldn't be appropriate even if she weren't sexy as it's a character action game and all character action games are rated M. No parent should be buying their kid those games.
 
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