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2K teasing Advent on Twitter. BioShock? XCOM? New IP? [Up: Looking like XCOM]

A

ArkkAngel007

Member
I finally noticed the email today, and it did seem like XCOM. Haven't played any despite owning Enemy Unknown, but something I know I'll love when I sit down with it. Good to see more coming.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
Please be based on XCOM Apocalypse.

New Deus Ex, new Shadowrun, new 'Syndicate Wars' (Satelite Reign), and now maybe not only a new XCOM but a new Apocalypse based on sc-fi cityscape management?

Pretty much 4 of probably my top 5 possible new game/series entries that I would ask if given free reign. Heck, even getting a new Romance of the Three Kingdoms. If we got a new. If Matsuno announced a new Tactics Ogre/Ogre Battle Saga entry, I'd be sacrificing goats in the moon light or something just to count my lucky blessings.
 
S

serversurfer

Member
Miker said:
I found it actively discouraged aggressive play, and I think Firaxis at least partially acknowledged it, because they introduced a time-limited resource, Meld, in the expansion.
Click to expand...
As it should! lol Rushing headlong in to battle typically accomplishes little more than getting said head shot off. Remember, a solder's job isn't to die for his country; his job to make some other poor bastard die for his. Earlier, someone was complaining that sprinting in to unexplored territory would generally get you killed. My question is, why would you expect any other result? A true element of risk just requires you to use proper squad tactics. That's a good thing. Have you ever read The Art of War?

Regarding Meld, I didn't play the expansion, so I don't really know what it is, but it seems that the consensus of the players in the video linked earlier is that the primary point of adding it to the game was to goad players in to making dumb mistakes. :p Actually, I hope they drop the scatter-on-reveal mechanic in the new game — or at least make it optional — because it's basically nothing more than unrealistic hand-holding. Think about that from the alien's perspective for a minute. You're on defense, waiting for the enemy to appear. He does. Do you run around a bit to ensure he noticed you and then wait to see what he does next, or do you just shoot him in the face?
 
S

Sober

Member
HK-47 said:
I dont really want procedural generation except maybe for wilderness crashes. But whats really important is that there is proper mod support this time. No doubt the XCOM coommunity would have littered EU and EW with new maps if it had been possible.
Click to expand...
I get the impression EU2012 was more of a side project than a huge tentpole thing like Civ/Bioshock is for 2K. Hopefully they've changed their minds on the matter this time around.
 
T

TC McQueen

Member
Sober said:
I get the impression EU2012 was more of a side project than a huge tentpole thing like Civ/Bioshock is for 2K. Hopefully they've changed their minds on the matter this time around.
Click to expand...
They probably did, since XCOM: EU sold tons on PC, got pretty great critical coverage, and helped boost 2K's reputation.
 
V

Vox Chaotica

Member
Website's been updated with a few more glitches, one of note being an mp3 file that can be found by clicking a red link on the website.
 
M

Miker

Member
serversurfer said:
As it should! lol Rushing headlong in to battle typically accomplishes little more than getting said head shot off. Remember, a solder's job isn't to die for his country; his job to make some other poor bastard die for his. Earlier, someone was complaining that sprinting in to unexplored territory would generally get you killed. My question is, why would you expect any other result? A true element of risk just requires you to use proper squad tactics. That's a good thing. Have you ever read The Art of War?
Click to expand...

No, and I don't expect nor need my TBS games to reflect its teachings. I do, however, want them to encourage various playstyles, and I felt the alien scatter system overly rewarded slow, creeping play. Baiting aliens via a scout unit turn-by-turn didn't make for dynamic approaches to missions.

And as I've said earlier, I recognize why the system exists, and I honestly don't have a better solution. Doesn't mean I can't complain about it though :p
 
X

Xater

Member
If we get to see new XCOM this E3 it would immediately be my most looked forward to game. Firaxis did a fantastic job with the last one. Love that game so much that I own it on 3 different platforms.
 
E

epmode

Member
Please include procedural map generation this time. It's such a critical feature for tying the tactical mode to the strategic mode!

You know, if this is actually XCOM.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
epmode said:
Please include procedural map generation this time. It's such a critical feature for tying the tactical mode to the strategic mode!

You know, if this is actually XCOM.
Click to expand...

Question: How would you feel about a map creation tool and the ability to subscribe to curated map playlists on the Workshop that would be added behind the scenes to the possible map pool, but the maps themselves either had no procedural generation or limited procedural generation?

There's actually a big tradeoff with procedural generation of maps in that they aren't handmade, so they won't have some of the uniqueness and interesting features that crafted maps would have. I've played some of the EU/EW maps literally hundreds of times now and I don't find them boring-they all have certain properties to them and exploiting those properties is key to higher level success.
 
X

Xater

Member
Fragamemnon said:
Question: How would you feel about a map creation tool and the ability to subscribe to curated map playlists on the Workshop that would be added behind the scenes to the possible map pool, but the maps themselves either had no procedural generation or limited procedural generation?

There's actually a big tradeoff with procedural generation of maps in that they aren't handmade, so they won't have some of the uniqueness and interesting features that crafted maps would have. I've played some of the EU/EW maps literally hundreds of times now and I don't find them boring-they all have certain properties to them and exploiting those properties is key to higher level success.
Click to expand...

Yeah I didn't mind the pre-made maps either. It would be nice though if they launch with more than the original game. Another possibility would be to add map variations. Have certain thing sin the map that could be placed differently or be removed.
 
E

epmode

Member
Fragamemnon said:
Question: How would you feel about a map creation tool and the ability to subscribe to curated map playlists on the Workshop that would be added behind the scenes to the possible map pool, but the maps themselves either had no procedural generation or limited procedural generation?
Click to expand...

It would be an improvement but still misses the reason I want procedural gerneration to return. The battle screen can tie into the strategic layer in so many interesting ways:

  • Time of day - Limited visibility at night needs to make a return! Sure, fighting at night was almost always a bad idea but sometimes you didn't have a choice.
  • Size of the UFO on the ground
  • Condition of the UFO - Bring it down with less lethal weapons or wait for it to land and and the ship will have more intact equipment for scavenging... but there will be more resistance. This also changes the map itself: A crash destroys nearby structures.
  • Terrain at the UFO's location - When exactly should you shoot down a UFO? Certain biomes make for tougher fights.
All of these variables have interesting gameplay implications that are lost with pre-generated maps.

Your point about the prefabricated tradeoff is a good one but a good generator would allow the developers to include larger set-piece style chunks along with the more granular stuff. It doesn't have to feel like each map was put together in a random jumble! Spelunky does a great job with this.

The developers could also include pre-built levels as a supplement to a map generator.
 
N

Nokagi

Unconfirmed Member
Bought XCOM really cheap on PS3 not really knowing what to expect and ended up absolutely loving it. Would probably buy a new one on day 1.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
epmode said:
It would be an improvement but still misses the reason I want procedural gerneration to return. The battle screen can tie into the strategic layer in so many interesting ways:

  • Time of day - Limited visibility at night needs to make a return! Sure, fighting at night was almost always a bad idea but sometimes you didn't have a choice.
  • Size of the UFO on the ground
  • Condition of the UFO - Bring it down with less lethal weapons or wait for it to land and and the ship will have more intact equipment for scavenging... but there will be more resistance. This also changes the map itself: A crash destroys nearby structures.
  • Terrain at the UFO's location - When exactly should you shoot down a UFO? Certain biomes make for tougher fights.
All of these variables have interesting gameplay implications that are lost with pre-generated maps.

Your point about the prefabricated tradeoff is a good one but a good generator would allow the developers to include larger set-piece style chunks along with the more granular stuff. It doesn't have to feel like each map was put together in a random jumble! Spelunky does a great job with this.

The developers could also include pre-built levels as a supplement to a map generator.
Click to expand...

1) I'm not hugely technically literate, but my impression is that UE4 provide tools that make variable lighting a *lot* easier. I'd expect to actually see this in, and have it tied in to when you're supposed to be landing to boot.

2, 3, and 4 are already a thing. Crashed maps have a bunch of debris, burning scenery, stuff like that. The rewards for nailing a landed UFO are greater, but the risk is higher. This already happens.

I really do think that the better option is to introduce steamworks support to back up an existing complement of prebuilt maps and (for the inevitable console edition) package the best of them into free updates, with creator consent of course.
 
S

Sober

Member
epmode said:
Please include procedural map generation this time. It's such a critical feature for tying the tactical mode to the strategic mode!

You know, if this is actually XCOM.
Click to expand...
You can't have random procedural generated maps without putting a lot of effort into the generation. Especially when the strategy end makes the soldiers in the game waaaaaaay more valuable than cannon fodder. They'd have to fundamentally change the way the soldiers work on tactical/strategic ends (i.e. removing a bulk of the perk/leveling tree) so you can have those moments where you're forced into shitty cover/in the open taking low % pot shots. That just simply wasn't how EU2012 was philosophically designed. It's not wrong, it's just different from OG X-Com.
 
E

epmode

Member
Poodlestrike said:
2, 3, and 4 are already a thing. Crashed maps have a bunch of debris, burning scenery, stuff like that. The rewards for nailing a landed UFO are greater, but the risk is higher. This already happens..
Click to expand...

Sort of.

Heavily damaged medium sized UFO shot down in a forest. While the developers may create a large pool of pre-generated maps, only two or three would match something like this. This is how the new game handles it. It's not as noticleable at first since mission assignments are generated differently. Instead of you choosing where a mission will take place by shooting down a UFO in a particular way (ie. the original X-COM), the game basically picks a pre-fab map out of a hat.

With procedurally generated maps, that UFO could be large/small/heavily damaged/pristine/whatever all taking place in the same environment. Lots more variation, good for replayability. It was so unlike Firaxis to go with hard-coded maps considering their success with Civilization. ..but I understand that they didn't have a large budget and they weren't sure the game would sell in the first place.

Sober said:
You can't have random procedural generated maps without putting a lot of effort into the generation. Especially when the strategy end makes the soldiers in the game waaaaaaay more valuable than cannon fodder.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't think it would be easy to make a good generator. I just don't think the tradeoff was worth the loss of procedural maps. Some companies are doing brilliant stuff with procedural generation and I'd love to see Firaxis give it a shot.

(Generally speaking, I miss the simulation side of the original game)
 
S

serversurfer

Member
Miker said:
No, and I don't expect nor need my TBS games to reflect its teachings. I do, however, want them to encourage various playstyles, and I felt the alien scatter system overly rewarded slow, creeping play. Baiting aliens via a scout unit turn-by-turn didn't make for dynamic approaches to missions.

And as I've said earlier, I recognize why the system exists, and I honestly don't have a better solution. Doesn't mean I can't complain about it though :p
Click to expand...
You keep saying that, but I think you've got it backwards. That's just how war is; if you're cautious, your reward is that you get to live. As I was saying before, even the scatter-on-reveal behavior is a form of drool-proofing compared to the more realistic behavior present in the original. To paraphrase you, "it overly rewards sloppy play," because you can blast through encounters and still be confident of coming out on top. You were arguing that dumbing down the enemy allows for more varied play styles, but in fact, it just changes the play style — in effect, changing the game itself — because if charging in and steamrollering the opposition is a viable option, why would you do anything but? You're actually arguing that even having them run for cover makes the game too hard. What would you have them do instead when discovered? Just stand there and die while you move the rest of your troops up to slaughter them?

Like I said in my first post, Demon's Souls was basically the X-Com of action games. You're basically arguing that Bloodborne would be a better game if it wasn't so hard. While it would certainly be more accessible to a wider audience, that would destroy precisely what its fans love most about it. Like Bloodborne, X-Com requires players to play carefully and deliberately, and punishes them mercilessly when they fail to do so. If you take that way, then you're left with "just another game." See where I'm coming from here?

Incidentally, you really should read The Art of War. There's a reason it's been required reading for 2500 years. It really will teach you a lot of useful information about strategy and tactics. Information which will be of great use to you, even in games not based directly on its teachings. In fact, it's actually useful in many aspects of life; not merely traditional warfare.
 
Dlacy13g

Dlacy13g

Member
Looking at the Advent site a buddy of mine discovered that some of the text used is Xcom Regular...It seems like a lock now imo for an Xcom sequel.
 
B

Baalzebup

Member
Dlacy13g said:
Looking at the Advent site a buddy of mine discovered that some of the text used is Xcom Regular...It seems like a lock now imo for an Xcom sequel.
Click to expand...

A bit late with that, I'm afraid. It has already been mentioned in this very thread :p

Shake Appeal said:
Almost certainly a new XCOM. A reboot of Apocalypse, maybe?

From the screens:
SNIP!

Spinning earth? "We are still watching"? XCOM fonts?

It's XCOM.
Click to expand...
Hopeford said:
There's also the fact that if you download the pdf then check the font names, one of them is listed as "Xcom Regular." Not sure if this was brought up yet, but yeah.
Click to expand...
 
M

Miker

Member
serversurfer said:
You keep saying that, but I think you've got it backwards. That's just how war is; if you're cautious, your reward is that you get to live. As I was saying before, even the scatter-on-reveal behavior is a form of drool-proofing compared to the more realistic behavior present in the original. To paraphrase you, "it overly rewards sloppy play," because you can blast through encounters and still be confident of coming out on top. You were arguing that dumbing down the enemy allows for more varied play styles, but in fact, it just changes the play style — in effect, changing the game itself — because if charging in and steamrollering the opposition is a viable option, why would you do anything but? You're actually arguing that even having them run for cover makes the game too hard. What would you have them do instead when discovered? Just stand there and die while you move the rest of your troops up to slaughter them?

Like I said in my first post, Demon's Souls was basically the X-Com of action games. You're basically arguing that Bloodborne would be a better game if it wasn't so hard. While it would certainly be more accessible to a wider audience, that would destroy precisely what its fans love most about it. Like Bloodborne, X-Com requires players to play carefully and deliberately, and punishes them mercilessly when they fail to do so. If you take that way, then you're left with "just another game." See where I'm coming from here?

Incidentally, you really should read The Art of War. There's a reason it's been required reading for 2500 years. It really will teach you a lot of useful information about strategy and tactics. Information which will be of great use to you, even in games not based directly on its teachings. In fact, it's actually useful in many aspects of life; not merely traditional warfare.
Click to expand...

All I said was I didn't like the spawn system encouraged really slow play (something we both seem agree on). I see it as a necessary design decision that I'm personally not a huge fan of, but you don't mind it, and appreciate it. That's perfectly fine. Let's agree to disagree.

But I said nothing about the Souls games, nothing about Bloodborne, nothing about dumbing down enemies, nothing about being rewarded for sloppy play, nothing about neutering the series' (XCOM's) difficulty. I honestly do not know where 99% of your post content came from. And are you really still telling me I should read The Art of War...?

Let it go, man. We're talking about games. Video games.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
Jintor said:
if they had just left a map editor in with XCOM the pools for that game would've been ridiculously large
Click to expand...

Firaxis could have just chucked up something that would have barely compiled on github and the modders would have cleaned it up and gotten a submission process for getting new maps into Long War. The demand for map creation has been off the charts since day one.
 
A

Abusement Park

Member
A current-gen XCOM announcement was at the top of my list for E3 hopes, ecstatic about this development. Like others, I'm interested to see what they end up adding to the formula. I was a little underwhelmed by the additions to Enemy Within, but the base game was by far one of my favorite games of the previous generation. I'll be keeping my eyes and ears peeled for more news about this one.
 
J

Jintor

Member
a) you should read the art of war. it's a good book.

b) it doesn't have a lot of relevance to videogame wargaming for funsies unless you're absolutely determined to play by the book or something
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
ashecitism said:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/37qa8s/psa_the_advent_future_website_just_got_updated/crox4bt
Click to expand...

hallelujahv0pz4.gif
 
A

Auctopus

Member
Would love a new XCom for next-gen systems. I wonder if they'll change up the way attack hit chance works, it could get pretty frustrating in EU.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
Auctopus said:
Would love a new XCom for next-gen systems. I wonder if they'll change up the way attack hit chance works, it could get pretty frustrating in EU.
Click to expand...

The brutal nature of shot chance is the core beauty of EU2012's design (alongside the blue move/yellow move mechanic). I don't think it is going anywhere.
 
F

ferrasvansen

Member
Nice had a feeling it was Xcom, looking at the city picture I was imagining my soldiers in cover. I only hope they have support for either mods or map editing, that would be out of this world.
 
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