ultrazilla
Gold Member
No sources for that article *BUT* it does kinda jive with the apparent later in the year reveal for the system. Perhaps Nintendo is beefing up some specs in light of the Neo and Scorpio. Thanks for the article Anondreas!
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Emily Rogers: NX Not Using x86 Architecture - Won't Blow Away Current Gen Consoles
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No sources for that article *BUT* it does kinda jive with the apparent later in the year reveal for the system. Perhaps Nintendo is beefing up some specs in light of the Neo and Scorpio. Thanks for the article Anondreas!
AcademicSaucer
Member
New thread worthy , also what the fuck is going on , I want off Mr. Kimishima wild ride.
Jim_Cacher
Member
I would take the article with huge grain of salt. Take a look at this article talking about their credibility: http://techland.time.com/2012/05/14/digitimes-apple-rumors/
Mr. Pointy
Member
That is very disingenuous to use Mario Kart 8 as an example. Mario Kart 8 came out 18 months after the launch of the Wii U. Most of the issues with the SDK was ironed out by then. Your scenario would have hold up if Mario Kart 8 was a an actual launch title.
Users, NateDrake and brainpann, it would be best if you read this article from
Eurogamer.
From the article:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=734779
Nintendo apparently had an N64 microcode that allowed them to output ~500,000 polygons-per-second, but they never let third parties get their hands on it, instead giving them an SGI-built microcode that was balanced too far towards accuracy and could only do ~100,000 PPS. They eventually gave devs the ability to make their own microcode (nope, you can't have Nintendo's one, which has been broken-in and tested for years), but making your own microcode was a pain in the ass so only devs like Factor 5 and Rare were up for the challenge. Everyone else suffered through games that could only look 1/5 as good as Nintendo's.
Sony apparently did the same in the PS3 era. First party gets the good tools, third party gets substandard, because first party needs to look good.
If it really is something LCGeek knows even the smallest tidbit about it, that would points towards what you said. However, they posted it wasn't aware of "the handheld component of NX" back in April, so maybe some more infos appeared on their end in the meantime?
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii U
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
"Other more prominent details are not wise been warned as much on various levels."
I don't understand this sentence from LCGeek, anyone?
I don't understand this sentence from LCGeek, anyone?
Mr. Pointy
Member
She can't reveal the manufacturer of the CPU/GPU or concrete specs or features of the SDK.
runnin_blue
Banned
It needs a couple more words and some proper punctuation, but basically infers that they know more interesting details and can't talk about them as they have been warned many times that they shouldn't.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Thanks guys.
I'm going to imagine this is because specs aren't locked down yet.
But I'm going to imagine if Nvidia makes the GPU, devs will go to them for documentation and not Nintendo cuz Nvidia's a lot better about it. Assuming Nvidia's on the job here, which I imagine they are. Those 480 prices for AMD's GPU really makes me wonder how much profit Nvidia's making off the 1070/1080 and might line up with the Semi Accurate stuff of Nvidia cutting a massive deal there just for the architecture.
Nintendo really doesn't need to 'outshine' third parties, IMO, nor do they need to hide stuff from them, because, well, when Nintendo games shine, they really shine. When they don't, they're basically producing below general budget software, IMO. They're an extremely boom or bust developer whereas other developers have a higher floor.
TLZ
Banned
Change of plans after RX 480 reveal?
Milly Osworth
Member
This thread is so depressing. So it looks like Nintendo hasnt learned much from their last few consoles and will probably get 0 3rd party support. If that is the case, why not just make games for every platform under the sun. But I guess if NX flops they will have to anyway. Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xboxtwo/Steam will be great. And no Nintendo is not Sega.
You're asking why not throw away money. Can't expect more from someone who jumps to the conclusions you do though.
TLZ
Banned
Haha. Have absolutely no idea who they are.
But since they haven't gone into production and no one knows their specs yet, might be just a slight possibility at that attractive price/cost?
Kimishima said just because it's a new product, it doesn't mean they feel it should be expensive.
Considering how Iwata and crew talked up about how expensive Wii U would be and how it went from being a profit-making box to making a loss right before launch should tell you that $300 or $350 is what they consider to be expensive. A hybrid, that supports VR and has a second screen is pure bullshit.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Dude, your constant "Going 3rd party" crap is getting annoying ... how about you try to contribute to the thread and it's discussion instead of this shit-posting ... or you know, if that's no possible, how about not posting in here at all then?
Even if NX is another flop, there's still the handheld and it's massive blockbuster IP catalogue and the mobile efforts that probably will keep them alive for yet another gen.
And where is this 3rd party shit jumping to conclusions coming from? LCGeek's posts can be seen as the situation being ok, not ideally and definitely room for improvement, and we have this OsirisBlack post about "Nintendo is fine", so how can one ignore so many posts?
runnin_blue
Banned
What was the OsirisBlack post? I haven't seen that.
Milly Osworth
Member
An opinion you dont like is not "shit posting".
This thread turned into another NX speculation thread, so there is nothing wrong with talking about what might happen if the NX is another misfire. Which is not unrealistic when insiders keep giving us hints that arent exactly inspiring hope.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Nintendo is doomed, going 3rd party is very much "shit posting".
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
"Nintendo will be fine" followed by..
"To add context to my previous post (I was asked via PM) without going into too much detail any game that runs on the XB1 or PS4 should run on the NX with little to no issue. What developers choose to or not to port to the console will more than likely depend on consumer support for the thing."
I guess we have more corroborated data now for the shared library and maybe a hint that currently rumoured architecture might be right. Also that the performance might be decent, but the tools are not up to the modern standard.
Which makes the cries for a more powerful console (and obsessions over Polaris) somehow funny. Because without the proper tools that wouldn't matter that much.
Thanks for everything posted on the last page(s). At least it puts some things in perspective. There are still a lot of months for things to change, but I'm not sure Nintendo wants that or at least they seem to not prioritize these things. It sound so Nintendo to keep secrecy even towards the other developers, not just the general public.
Did we have other rumours about the SDK? I know about engines support, but SDK?
Which makes the cries for a more powerful console (and obsessions over Polaris) somehow funny. Because without the proper tools that wouldn't matter that much.
Thanks for everything posted on the last page(s). At least it puts some things in perspective. There are still a lot of months for things to change, but I'm not sure Nintendo wants that or at least they seem to not prioritize these things. It sound so Nintendo to keep secrecy even towards the other developers, not just the general public.
Did we have other rumours about the SDK? I know about engines support, but SDK?
Eolz
Member
Lol.
Shame a thread had to be made, but it was going to happen anyway. Digitimes is mostly unreliable, and as usual, seems to add some old rumors and speculation in their article.
Bots are better than you
Banned
I consider it shit posting, if that's everything i read from you in nearly all NX related threads. And "i wish for Nintend to go 3rd party" is not a "no unrealistic scenario" as much as it is "i want this, i want that, i want it".
And where exactly are the tidbits from, say, LCGeek imply that everything is shit?
Is it misreading, misunderstanding or simply just downright ignoring things that don't fit your already made up agenda in your mind?
Criticism about SDK/tools are fair enough, it's Nintendo, but unlike hardware, which is pretty much set in stone, SDK/tools can actually improve over the time and with the right feedback and critisism. But yeah, subpar SDK/tools mean NX failure and Nintendo 3rd party, sure thing.
Thanks for the info LCGeek.
It kind of confirms that they'll have decent hardware, but nintendo being nintendo they don't putting enough effort in documenting their SDK in english, or making it towards western dev standards (with intellisense/visual studio/examples etc)
They really should create an engine team in the US/EU that is dual language japanese/english to overcome this - they could function both as SDK developers and helpdesk for third party studios and tools after launch.
Also LCGeek seems to imply different 3rd parties are on different versions of the SDK - and not all 3rd parties are treated equally. This makes it harder for a community of developers to help eachother out when things are unclear.
Does nintendo still have a dev community forum/collaboratively q&a site like wario world? I know they have a new dev platform at https://developer.nintendo.com/ but we didn't get much info on what's there for devs once allowed access.
Hasn't most hardware been developed in the US? The N64 was afaik, and so were the chips of wii/wiiU - although architectural design was decided by jpn.
It kind of confirms that they'll have decent hardware, but nintendo being nintendo they don't putting enough effort in documenting their SDK in english, or making it towards western dev standards (with intellisense/visual studio/examples etc)
They really should create an engine team in the US/EU that is dual language japanese/english to overcome this - they could function both as SDK developers and helpdesk for third party studios and tools after launch.
Yeah, ofcourse an SDK can improve, but this should have been one of their priorities.
Also LCGeek seems to imply different 3rd parties are on different versions of the SDK - and not all 3rd parties are treated equally. This makes it harder for a community of developers to help eachother out when things are unclear.
Does nintendo still have a dev community forum/collaboratively q&a site like wario world? I know they have a new dev platform at https://developer.nintendo.com/ but we didn't get much info on what's there for devs once allowed access.
Hasn't most hardware been developed in the US? The N64 was afaik, and so were the chips of wii/wiiU - although architectural design was decided by jpn.
Milly Osworth
Member
The SDK can improve over time... After the Wiiu and its lack of support Nintendo should have everything in order to get 3rd party developers on board. If what LCGeek says its true, they dont. You really think its acceptable to improve it over time when they need the stars to align to get support again?
I get the impression that there are lot more western-speaking people involved with their hardware this time, internally, if you go by their job listings over the past 12-18 months. So...it SHOULD have better documentation in English. I emphasize SHOULD, mind you.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Well, they still have some time to make things better, so here's hoping that they are going to do their homework. I just hope that devs actually give them feedback somehow.
I hope I won't sound harsh or something (also, please consider there might be language issues on my part since I'm not a native speaker) but I wonder then why are you painting such a catastrophic scenario when you're even aknowledging your perspective might be skewed due to various reasons?
runnin_blue
Banned
Thanks for that.
Hey LCG. Thanks for fielding all these questions and for all the info you've provided. I just want to make sure I understand this bit, though. It seems like you're saying this SDK is an improvement over prior Nintendo SDKS. Is that correct?
And if so, how does this SDK compare to PS4 and XB1 SDKs? If you aren't any more impressed with those for example thak you are with the NX one, as Skittzo mentioned that gives us a better barometer of how much more difficult this SDK might be for third parties.
Thanks for your time!
Skittzo0413
Member
You're basing this on one article where a developer was able to get good assistance from Nintendo, and a quote from a Nintendo software guy made this year. However, we have input from other developers (including LCGeek here) that SDK tools and documentation have been pretty poor from Nintendo over the past few generations. Obviously Nintendo themselves won't come out and say they have bad tools.
We can only really take in all of the information we have to make an educated guess about the situation, but it seems more like Nintendo's tools are okay, the documentation behind them is very poor, and the ability to contact them for support is hit or miss.
The impression I got from LCGeek is that Nintendo's SDKs are not as well documented and helpful as those from Sony and MS, especially for western developers. It's likely because the latter two companies have a much more western focus, and Nintendo knows it can help their Japanese development partners with relative ease.
But one of the main themes we keep seeing from these developers is specifically that the SDK documentation is really quite poor. Developers like Criterion shouldn't need to contact Nintendo for support in getting the GPU running. That's just dumb. It should have the necessary information with it to allow professional game developers to create games for the console without all these weird barriers.
Hopefully this is something they've fixed or are fixing with the NX. Takahashi's quote on the last page (or two pages ago, can't remember) seems to indicate that they are focused on improving SDK tools themselves, but as I said before documentation is just as important, so that developers know how to actually use those SDK tools without having to knock down Nintendo's door.
Akhe
Member
"Amd, which competes with Intel and nvidia in the cpu market, dominetes the gaming console market. It's the sole supplier of semi-custom processors for japan-based Sony PlayStation 4 and MS Xbox. It has also won an order for Nintendo's upcoming console, codenamed "NX""
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-revenues-hit-weakness-semi-130735686.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-revenues-hit-weakness-semi-130735686.html
Link posted by 10k
Schnozberry
Member
AMD has never revealed who their customers are. Anybody saying so is speculating.
That was posted on May 2nd and seems a rewriting from this one:
http://marketrealist.com/2015/12/amd-may-see-growth-2016/
AAA Zelda and Mario on PS5/Xb2/Steam won't exist even if Nintendo drops out of hardware. The cost of games like that is subsidized by pushing hardware, without a system to justify the investment Nintendo won't bother and will instead focus on lower investment / higher return mobile development. Just like the rest of Japan.
The day Nintendo leaves hardware is also going to be the day you lose high production 3D Mario and Zelda games. Be careful what you wish for.
I will implore you to read the reddit threads linked below. Just about every console have had their individual quirks. Even in those post below some developers mention that Nintendo "tools" may be lacking; however, there are developers that doesn't even mention "tools" as a problem. I'm not sure what to actually believe is true. But, from what I can infer, is that this isn't only a Nintendo problem.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/xddlp/describe_what_developing_for_each_console_youve/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/3c62bu/how_easy_is_it_developing_games_for_the_big_three/
Skittzo0413
Member
I found this quote in the first link:
Which sorta goes along with what I was saying. The first thread is more about past generations in general, and it does show that every console has its quirks. Nintendo SDKs were hit or miss in the past but generally developers didn't seem to have that big a problem with them. The one quoted above seems to be a standout, but who knows how much of that is grounded in truth.
The second link however, paints a picture much more similar to what I was saying above and what I believe LCGeek was hinting at. It focuses on the differences in developing for PS4/XB1/Wii U, and most of them who have developed for Nintendo say that the SDK examples and tools in general are quite lacking when compared to those for the PS4 or XB1:
The other thing the second link showed me is that Nintendo's certification process is quite a bit more rigorous than Sony's or MS', which can certainly be a good thing if it ensures the quality of third party games but it can also be a bad thing if a certain developer isn't terribly interested in meeting those rigorous standards, and just forgoes the console for that reason.
It seems to me that modern Nintendo still hasn't caught up to their competition as far as the SDKs are concerned, but I do see that there are clearly issues with everyone's SDKs. Game development is clearly quite complicated and delivering perfect development tools is not an easy process. But it does seem that Nintendo has more room to improve in that area than Sony or MS.
Either way those were interesting reads, thank you!
Could of sworn it's the games that subsidize the consoles with this gen being the first gen they sell consoles for profit instead of a loss.
It's both. 3D Mario and Zelda are high cost production and extremely polished games made to move hardware. If Nintendo doesn't have to worry about moving hardware though, they can invest less in other games that are themselves much more profitable. Probably on your phone.
Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii U
That did not apply to Wii. For Wii U, it was due to backwards compatibility. Since we already have a lot of reliable evidence that they're using a modern CPU this time, there's only like one CPU they could possibly choose unless they just go with fewer cores.
https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As...nted-Use-of-the-Latest-Technology-205699.htmlThat did not apply to Wii.Sadly I remember very similar logic with Wii and Wii U
Nintendo went out of their way to make Wii an entire generation weaker than the Xbox360 which launched a year earlier than it did, because Nintendo cared more about small form factor and leaving the console turned on 24/7 than they did about graphics performance.
Eh... Just overclocking their old chips isn't really going out of their way int he way I'm thinking. I'm talking about specifically seeking the weakest parts they can use for no real reason. I suppose it's possible that everything we've heard is wrong and that they've using Gekko yet again, but I highly doubt it. They could also use a small core like the A35, which would struggle to match current consoles, but even then it's like ehhhhhhh
Besides, WSJ is a reliable third-party source, while what you linked was just some post-launch marketing drivel. Even if Nintendo wants a small formfactor again, they'd still have to go out of their way on top of that to make the CPU super weak. Even smartphones have significantly faster CPUs than current consoles.
Well, at least Nintendo didn't design a console that cook itself to death like the lovely Xbox 360.
Nintendo I felt slacked in SDK after GC by not documenting shaders or researching them like other big companies do. I will extend it out further in a way more gamers can relate. Look at what amd and nvidia do with their hardware for gaming be it streaming with games or gameworks with the amd equivalent. Nintendo should be looking to embedded their essence along with more technology in to games so it's automatic or very easy to alter a company own desires in to a game. Same for tool nuance I think PS4 has some of the best optimization tools and the nuance I feel isn't there on one end same for a bro whose less anal me giving me info. DX as a platform api gives so much and combined with it allows in creation for making a game good UI or engine design like netcode it's obvious that vulkan/opengl consortium is still playing catchup but is actually getting there, say its 80-90 based on benchmarks and at time superior when done right. I want nintendo do to the work others do and just bite the bullet and get a team to really figrure out things. They did it on N64 and Cube, someone already mentioned the problems with n64.
MuchoMalo I don't see exotic in their in desires. What I do see is taking something from amd and doing what Sony just pulled. The problem is sony takes time to ensure any changes in hardware are reflected well enough in how you harness, its alot better than say PS2 or PS3 were in these regards. Nintendo is lacking, which is lot better than anything they did on Wii or WiiU. Worse like last time they might not ask for the power they could.
I don't use time any more for ports in terms of ease. I look at what they do in terms of performance vs what is there on other platforms or how they improve in time we can really see where it is. Yet from looking around, short of seeing EA, ubisoft and few other heavy hitters show up it speaks volumes. The beauty is nintendo is clearly delaying to get shit in order. I can tolerate that really I can considering what we ended up this gen.
People peg Wii wrong. They only altered GC architecture to be able to handle the controller and did another soup up to make it more like the original foundation. They never bothered, WiiU is infinitely worse they tried and didn't care to realize it was that weak.
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