Yeah. That's what we're doing, speculating. And my view is that this is not intended to be a large upgrade from what we have atm. That itself is a speculation. And my argument is based on the fact that they are less ambitious hardware wise, and more restrictive on what developers can and cannot do with the software.
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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480
- Thread starter Shtof
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Yeah. That's what we're doing, speculating. And my view is that this is not intended to be a large upgrade from what we have atm. That itself is a speculation. And my argument is based on the fact that they are less ambitious hardware wise, and more restrictive on what developers can and cannot do with the software.
KurtSloane
Banned
So at first some people were ok with a ps4k because it was a minor update to ps4. The reason people could get behind that was that the ps4 is still relevant and will keep so and a too powerful ps4k would gimp either the ps4 or the ps4k version of a game and more like a different generation than an upgrade.
Now that there is a new system from MS in the talk, people want the ps4k even stronger to compete with Scorpio? Why? I mean, why is it a problem to not have the best hardware? Especially considering that Scorpio launches a lot later, how can anyone expect neo to be (nearly) as powerful as Scorpio?
Now that there is a new system from MS in the talk, people want the ps4k even stronger to compete with Scorpio? Why? I mean, why is it a problem to not have the best hardware? Especially considering that Scorpio launches a lot later, how can anyone expect neo to be (nearly) as powerful as Scorpio?
You have a 6TF gpu and yet the graphics still look like the image on the right, because the one on the left requires tons of cpu performance
It is a good thing then that each core of PS4 Neo will have additional 500MHz to work with.
If the goal of the Neo is not to introduce complete revolution but just to offer premium experience and 4K media consumption, any boost in hardware will be enough. Boost of 30% on the Jaguar more than good enough for that. I am fine with that. I would rather have this than a console "update" that has exclusive games this early in the gen. That would not be a update, that would be a new console gen.
I agree. The whole point of PS4K(IMO) from the start would be a marginally stronger version of the current HW.
If you want them to just make a new gen level machine entirely and make PS4 development in its entirety irrelevant, would that be any better to current users?
MS has their direction, Sony has their direction. I would advice against trying to make this into a power arms race where Sony has to react to MS at every turn and vice versa.
Did you forget a word?
But i generally agree. If that is Sony's direction, i'd actually be more content if they downgraded the CU's in the GPU about 10 or so. Come out with a 26 CU polaris chip, upclock the Jaguar to 2.0GHZ to rid of any rough spots PS4 is experiencing...and call it a day.
That way, their next box could be a much bigger jump and they still have a decent hold over unit that will still show a definite impact
wapplew
Member
I flat out don't want any upgraded current gen console at all.
OdysseusVA
Banned
I'm thinking Scorpio, or its revision, will be upgradable.
Sony would be smart to beat them to it in this hypothetical scenario
And esports
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
According to Sony fanboys the speed increase for the CPU on Xbox One wasn't significant relative to games performance so this won't be either.
Brad Grenz
Member
The Xbox One's CPU advantage seemed to largely have been squandered by inefficiencies in the Virtual Machine design of their OS. In any case you'd expect a 30% clock increase to have a lot more impact than an 8% one.
But that was the case, and you saw that in every DF face off. Compared to the GPU disparity, the CPU upclock wasn't significant to general gaming performance.
In comparison to the CPU's, XB1 and NEO, we're talking about a 1.75 GHZ upclock versus a 4.0 GHZ upclock. Compared to the PS4's 1.6, it will make a difference..
As Brad says its an 8% difference versus a 30%
In their hitman face off, DF showed a difference of about 4 to 5 FPS everything being equal in stressful scenarios that they attributed to the XB1 upclock, so a 4GHZ upclock will be noticeable from the base hardware.
Totally understandable!
Being a classic console gamer, this is a major change of what consoles were for decades and I am curious to see how the market will react to this move. I am still not sure if I want it. From a technical point of view, it's interesting, but the direction to a digital future with upgraded consoles made me also realize that after ps2 gen consoles lost their classic feeling. From then, things changed a lot and this process is still going.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Clockspeeds on CPU/GPUs are the last thing to be locked down in a new hardware release. These can be changed couple months before release. So if Sony wanted to increase the Polaris core clock to, say, 1011Mhz that will be done easy enough.
In any case, there's no way Neo will out-gun the Scorpio if its out 8-12 months earlier. Sony will just get all the sales instead.
In any case, there's no way Neo will out-gun the Scorpio if its out 8-12 months earlier. Sony will just get all the sales instead.
Did you just come in here to say that?
All GPU's could potentially be console GPU's. What does them being in a console in whatever form have to do with anything?
This news is really bringing out the worst
Dictator93
Member
I think that was sarcasm to a certain degree.
It is nice that this time around we will have presumably a direct equiv GPU to do comparisons with, albeit with less bandwidth and a much depressed core clock. I look forward to that though.
As I already said yesterday, the tone is getting rough. This is a technical thread but to some it seems like a threat. That's why we hear about the better games, the better sales and what not is used in console wars to show that one system is better than the other.
I think it's because people feel insecure which is understandable as this is a new situation and people don't know what will be so they grasp to what they know and are good at.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
So you are proving my point.
This is a shit-posting D:
So that means to you that Scorpio will have jaguar CPUs? Because no proof otherwise?
I'm not "trying" to be an insider. I'm using science as an example of what to expect. A 290X is a good approximation for baseline performance in Scorpio before architectural efficiencies and direct to hardware programming. Here's the Witcher 3 running in 4K on a 290X at medium settings. Average framerate is 30 FPS:
As for Neo, it should be able to do 4K as well, but clever sacrifices will be made to achieve said goal. Finally, I believe both machines will use dynamic resolutions. But to be 100- I would much rather both Sony and MS aim for 1080p 60 FPS with a good layer of temporal AA/edge tesselation like the one in Uncharted 4 for an extremely clean image; and use the extra power to crank the effects to ultra settings.
Dictator93
Member
I am not sure that is the word you are looking for. Rather, just image quality, regardless which way one gets there.
What point are you making exactly?
The point i'm making is that the uplock in CPU performance as well as the GPU performance in PS4K will make a difference from PS4.
And i am also trying to explain to you why the situation of PS4 to NEO's CPU upclock is different from the CPU upclock of XB1 from PS4 in regards to gaming performance.
If i didn't make it clear, just say so
Oh jeeze, sorry, I remember back in the day people were speculating Naughty Dog was using edge tesselation in addition to AA to clean up the jaggies. My apologies. The point still remains that the image quality in Uncharted 4 is uncanny and really negates the benefits of 4K in a pretty big way.
If developers use an AA method like ND's, I'd much rather they focus on throwing as many particles, NPC's, and visual effects to maximum than go for 4K.
...Scatter...
Banned
What.....I mean...what exactly did you think would be in a console? The whole PCIE graphics card you could remove and put into something else?
Sorry if missed sarcasm.
Aztechnology
Member
I think he's being facetious about not wanting the GPU because it's in the plebstation.
...Scatter...
Banned
I'm not "trying" to be an insider. I'm using science as an example of what to expect. A 290X is a good approximation for baseline performance in Scorpio before architectural efficiencies and direct to hardware programming. Here's the Witcher 3 running in 4K on a 290X at medium settings. Average framerate is 30 FPS:
As for Neo, it should be able to do 4K as well, but clever sacrifices will be made to achieve said goal. Finally, I believe both machines will use dynamic resolutions. But to be 100- I would much rather both Sony and MS aim for 1080p 60 FPS with a good layer of temporal AA/edge tesselation like the one in Uncharted 4 for an extremely clean image; and use the extra power to crank the effects to ultra settings.
4k medium is cool. What's the bench on 1080p Ultra?
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Can you really compare PC vs Console hardware directly like that though?
Uncharted 4 wouldn't be anywhere close to possible on equivilent PC specs.
I think we just have to wait and see when it comes to things like this....
I'm just saying, many here are 100% sure that Scorpio will use Zen. We don't know that for sure.
My good man, the only reason I posted these graphs were to kind of help curb the pessimism about 4K gaming on Neo/Scorpio. People are throwing out conjecture that the AMD 480X is incapable of 4K gaming- which is NOT true. Both Neo/Scorpio are capable of 4K - and if a developer is commited to it- can make the right compromises that does justice to resolution, framerate, and effects.
The post I said earlier about people being suprised about performance in 4K- was referencing that I believe we can get modern AAA game at the resolution with similar sacrifices to what we see now.
But you are right, you cannot directly compare a PC to a console and say - "SEE!"
Don't ask :/
MatthewTrujillo
Banned
I think people are way to caught up with 4K at the moment. For Neo it doesn't make much sense to waste extra resources for the resolution bump. Most gamers don't have 4K sets and if sonys listening most complaints come from framerates. If all neo games run at 60fps with extra graphical bells and whistles then it will do well. I say worry about 4K gaming when PS5 launches..... Right now it just doesn't make sense considering most consumers won't have the displays for 4K and by the time it really takes off like it is starting to with some decent priced sets then PS5 can really cater to the ultraHD consumer.
RedRedSuit
Member
4K is almost entirely worthless for the vast, vast majority of living room situations. Yes, he that remains true even if everyone buys a 4K set, which I'm sure will happen eventually. Native 4K just isn't something that most people's screen size + distance arrangements will allow to discern in any meaningful way.
30" PC monitor at one's desk? Sure, 4K has some benefit there. Living room TV? No.
Fortunately all this power can go to making 1080p (and hopefully 60fps) look particularly good.
What is slightly worrying is that people keep talking about native 4K in the context of game consoles, and by that I mean games specifically (as opposed to movies and whatever). If people keep talking about that as a desirable goal, some developers might actually think native 4K output might be a desirable PR bullet point and thus misspend resources on coding their console games to run at native 4K. *shudder*
30" PC monitor at one's desk? Sure, 4K has some benefit there. Living room TV? No.
Fortunately all this power can go to making 1080p (and hopefully 60fps) look particularly good.
What is slightly worrying is that people keep talking about native 4K in the context of game consoles, and by that I mean games specifically (as opposed to movies and whatever). If people keep talking about that as a desirable goal, some developers might actually think native 4K output might be a desirable PR bullet point and thus misspend resources on coding their console games to run at native 4K. *shudder*
Many are also sure that Sony can increase clocks like at free will.
It's a combination of hope and that we don't know anything for sure.
OsirisBlack, the person that leaked the specs in the original thread claimed that the document that he read outlined that Sony had plans in measure to change the CPU at any given time and that things were still in a state of flux.
I'd be stupid to believe Sony will clock this machine at 1.6 ghz, but the option is still on the table for Sony to change out CPUs and for them to play with clocks. Microsoft increased both CPU and GPU before they shipped X1 BTW.
If developers use temporal AA method they can tweak it to output or resolve into 4k without huge increase in needed computation power.
Yes, it will be soft when moving, but in worst case it's as good as 1080p.
MatthewTrujillo
Banned
This sums up my sentiments in regards to neo, and 4K.
Osiris replied directly to me, I know that. But again, you would change the whole apu when you change the CPU, so the whole die. This is not just putting more ram in the box and he agrees with me (obviously, because these things are not the same).
Sony has to begin production for the chip in the near future, which includes several tests of the chip itself, its behavior, predictability, stability... It's not just swapping a CPU out of the socket and a new one in.
Also the clock bump MS did was tiny and didn't change anything significantly.
To do what instead?
geordiemp
Member
Depends where the bottleneck is for that game, I recall a few DF articles where XB1 seemed to run better, but the bottlenecks for Xb1 could have been bandwidth, ESRAM size, GPU.
To hit 1080p60 consistently across different engines and games their needs to be balance between GPU / CPU / bandwidth abilities.
You would hope that they would have parallel activities as a contingency in case an option does not work out as well as expected. Lets hope sony have 2 silicon designs being tested and the opt for the better CPU.
anothertech
Member
It's as likely to happen as not for all we know. CPU be damed
wapplew
Member
PS5? 8x proper power increase for next gen.
Agreed, but at the same time, all we are doing is speculating. Sony put in 8 GB of GDDR5 and randomly announced it at a press conference to the shock of every one there. Things can happen, but I'm a natural born realist - so 4.2 TF, Jaguar, $399 is my book right now.
Sorry to jump in here, but you've said the X1 upclock didn't do anything to gaming performance, whereas in the Neo it will. That doesn't logically make sense. The right thing to say is that the uplock made little difference, where the 50% will make more difference.
geordiemp
Member
The silly thing is that a $ 399 console is not much more than the OG Ps4 now. From a business perspective it makes no sense, at all.
You have 2 consumers, one that wants cheapest price, and the premium buyer. Heck at the moment Ps4 is $ 349 on Amazon, what is the point of a premium model for $ 50 bucks in the market ?
Sony should have a $ 300 OG ps4 (slim), scaled down 500 GB HD, small form factor.
and a premium $ 450 or more and that should have scaled down Zen, big GPU, more bandwidth and SATA 3 - use same box or bigger with decent cooling. Leave out the HD and let people go nuts with SSD or 4 TB HD - its an enthusiast model. This would be more competition for Scorpio as well.
But this is not the same as we swap the CPU two weeks before deadline.
It's a bit off-topic but I was SO HAPPY last two years when the dust settled and we could all just enjoy games.
As much as I am excited about new news I HATE what it does to people and level of discussion.
All of a sudden a lot of people put on their fanboy hats and games are not the most important anymore until the dust settles again....
As much as I am excited about new news I HATE what it does to people and level of discussion.
All of a sudden a lot of people put on their fanboy hats and games are not the most important anymore until the dust settles again....
Too early for that for Sony - why kill a gem where they're making bank?
Neo seems fair sensible strategy to me at the moment.
It's clearly designed as a bridging release to next gen vs big jump and Sony no doubt hope this approach in current market will provide smoother gen transition with stronger continuity in market for their brand.
I suspect it's also intended to blunt any MS attempt to ditch XB1 as they did the OG Xbox and try and leapfrog them. I reckon Sony are banking that a moderate power boost with earlier time to market and price would erode impact of MS taking same path as they did from OG Xbox to 360.
That sad MS are, if rumours are true, taking a bit of a half way house approach themselves. Not entirely ditching XB1 but going for bigger jump with their Scorpio release.
Sony's makes sense as current market leader and MS makes sense as XB1 starts to look down YOY and remains too far behind globally.
Whether market really embraces increments at all though is s while other thing. At this point it's an unknown.
Both devices might stutter and end up selling in small quantities to a niche demographic and make little impact.
One or other might hit home while the other struggles (fan folk will already have their fantasy narrative in place for their preferred outcome in this scenario).
Both might actually work well enough in their own right (this would be funny to see on GAF).