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[SneakyStephan]

I'm not "trying" to be an insider. I'm using science as an example of what to expect. A 290X is a good approximation for baseline performance in Scorpio before architectural efficiencies and direct to hardware programming. Here's the Witcher 3 running in 4K on a 290X at medium settings. Average framerate is 30 FPS:

As for Neo, it should be able to do 4K as well, but clever sacrifices will be made to achieve said goal. Finally, I believe both machines will use dynamic resolutions. But to be 100- I would much rather both Sony and MS aim for 1080p 60 FPS with a good layer of temporal AA/edge tesselation like the one in Uncharted 4 for an extremely clean image; and use the extra power to crank the effects to ultra settings.

That graph shows it to be clearly unplayable

average 30 fps does not mean sustained 30 fps, that graph shows drop into the teens for framerate, unacceptable

You need to average a lot more than 30 fps to get a game to be a locked 30 fps

 

[truth411]

Again...no it isn't.

I think folks are just going to have to agree to disagree, but for developers there is nothing about Scorpio that's related to XB1 other than there both made by AMD components.
Again new architecture based on available tech =/= Xbox 1.5. More like Xbox 2 that's backwards compatible. With die shrinks not happening at the same rate as in the past, of course your not going to see the same performance leap compared to previous gens.

 

[DagnastyEp]

1-4GB of HBM2 on the APU.

Basically the same setup as Xb1 but the HBM2 replaces the esram. Overall more ram and much faster and possibly cheaper.

I'm think that whatever memory solution they end up going with, there will only be 1 kind of use in the system: all GDDR5(x) or all HBM2, with no ES or ED RAM at all. I don't think DDR4 would be fast enough to feed the GPU.

On an APU there would have to be different memory controllers on the same die if they used 2 different types of RAM for the system. Might as well bypass that complexity and die space usage and just use one type of system memory. I don't think we'll see consoles go back to split pools of RAM ever again.

And regarding ESRAM (or EDRAM). I think it's been shown that better results are achieved using a more expensive RAM type, and not wasting die space on ESRAM.

I would love it if Scorpio got a nice big chunk of HBM2, but I'm not sure if that would be viable in the timeframe with which the console will exist.

 

[otakukidd]

I think folks are just going to have to agree to disagree, but for developers there is nothing about Scorpio that's related to XB1 other than there both made by AMD components.
Again new architecture based on available tech =/= Xbox 1.5. More like Xbox 2 that's backwards compatible. With die shrinks not happening at the same rate as in the past, of course your not going to see the same performance leap compared to previous gens.

If there is no exclusive games besides vr games it wont be next gen. That should be the biggest question about the Scorpio.

 

[mckmas8808]

12GB and 16GB of ram in 2017 should be pretty cheap.

12 GB of LPDDR4 on a 128 bit bus. 68gb/s.
16 GB of DDR4 on a 256 bit bus. 100gb/s.

Then on the GPU 1-4GB of HBM2 depending on price. 512 gb/s.

You'll have a memory setup like Xb1 but actually much faster, allows for easy BC, and potentially cheaper depending on Esram vs HBM2 costs.

You realize that the Xbox 1-2 is not a generation jump right?

 

[mugurumakensei]

1-4GB of HBM2 on the APU.

Basically the same setup as Xb1 but the HBM2 replaces the esram. Overall more ram and much faster and possibly cheaper.

Nah. The memory controller would be too complicated and expensive. Just HBM2 itself will be expensive until it becomes ubiquitous in PC gpus. So far, it looks to be reserved for the Vega line which is the *80Ti/Titan competitor (read $600+ ).
It will likely be all GDDR5 with an extra half a gig to a gig reserved for scratch space for ESRAM.

 

[mckmas8808]

This ain't no XB1.5. Much closer to/pretty much is XB1 successor than half step.

Okay so it's an Xbox 1.75 then. I seriously doubt MS will treat this as a true generation jump the same way they did with the OG Xbox One.

 

[wonderful103]

If there is no exclusive games besides vr games it wont be next gen. That should be the biggest question about the Scorpio.

There is no more generations.

 

[Withnail]

Arguing about whether it's XBO 2 or XBO 1.5 is completely pointless.

All the noises from MS indicate that the future of Xbox is as a software platform that runs on various hardware configurations.

 

[icespide]

lots of different implications of people calling it a "successor" or a "new generation". these things clearly will no longer mean what they used to

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It's literally a new generation console base on technology available at the time. If rumors are true then it's a new console that's backwards compatible.

It being new tech don't mean it's a next gen jump for some people .
Lets say Neo is 4.5 TFLOPS and Scorpio end up being 5.5 .
Are people really going to say one is next gen and the other is not in console terms .
Architecture wise yes but power wise i would say no .

I think folks are just going to have to agree to disagree, but for developers there is nothing about Scorpio that's related to XB1 other than there both made by AMD components.
Again new architecture based on available tech =/= Xbox 1.5. More like Xbox 2 that's backwards compatible. With die shrinks not happening at the same rate as in the past, of course your not going to see the same performance leap compared to previous gens.

If MS and Sony waited the normal 5 to 6 years the jump would have been the normal .
Even with die shrinks taking longer to happen .

 

[mckmas8808]

If there is no exclusive games besides vr games it wont be next gen. That should be the biggest question about the Scorpio.

I agree! If most games that come out for the Scorpio, can't be played on the Xbox One, then it is a new generation for MS.

But if the same games on the same disc can play on the Xbox Scorpio and the Xbox One.....then that's just a Xbox 1.5 (or xbox 1.75 if that makes you feel better).

 

[wonderful103]

It being new tech don't mean it's a next gen jump for some people .
Lets say Neo is 4.5 TFLOPS and Scorpio end up being 5.5 .
Are people really going to say one is next gen and the other is not in console terms .
Architecture wise yes but power wise i would say no .

Aside from the fact that your numbers are incorrect (and you're minimizing the gap as much as possible) you should read any digital foundry thread where the PS4 is providing 900p and the XB1 is providing the same game at 720p.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Aside from the fact that your numbers are incorrect (and you're minimizing the gap as much as possible) you should read any digital foundry thread where the PS4 is providing 900p and the XB1 is providing the same game at 720p.

What does that have to do with my point ?
Do people say X1 is not a next gen system comapre to PS4 ?

Also no numbers are correct cause everything base on rumors .
And if i wanted to be minimizing the gap i could have just gone with 5 TFLOP number for Scorpio which also being rumored .

 

[mckmas8808]

lots of different implications of people calling it a "successor" or a "new generation". these things clearly will no longer mean what they used to

Maybe according to MS. We don't actually know if Sony and Nintendo feel this way.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Sorry to jump in here, but you've said the X1 upclock didn't do anything to gaming performance, whereas in the Neo it will. That doesn't logically make sense. The right thing to say is that the uplock made little difference, where the 50% will make more difference.

I didn't say it didn't do anything, i said, compared to the GPU disparity performance differential, it was not significant to general gaming performance.

AKA, the GPU differential between XB1 and PS4 created far more of an impact performance wise in games than the 8%CPU upclock.

PS4 to NEO on the other hand, 30% upclock in CPU AND a stronger GPU will make the NEO's CPU far more pertinent.

Not that i think they should have gone so far with the GPU, but that's just my opinion.

 

[John Wick]

I ask because I read it several times now: what exactly is a new architecture to you and why do you say “may be able to be bc“?

From now forward I think Sony will make sure their future consoles are backwards compatible. It just makes sense to keep people in their eco system

 

[c0de]

From now forward I think Sony will make sure their future consoles are backwards compatible. It just makes sense to keep people in their eco system

Of course. It's a PC through and through. It would be ridiculous to not have bc from now on.

 

[justsomeguy]

I agree! If most games that come out for the Scorpio, can't be played on the Xbox One, then it is a new generation for MS.

But if the same games on the same disc can play on the Xbox Scorpio and the Xbox One.....then that's just a Xbox 1.5 (or xbox 1.75 if that makes you feel better).

calling it the 1.5 clearly makes you feel better

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

If PS4 Neo is close to this (it has the same amount of Compute units) it's looking like 4k gaming is not totally off the table after all.

Looking at benchmarks for GTX 970 / R9 390, they can run games @ 4k / 30fps on High Settings (not Ultra) on a lot of games, so if RX 480 is able to beat them and the PS4 Neo is close to it, then 4k is certainly more possible than I first thought.

Lots of people have been speculating about Neo's graphics and how better they could be, but it could just be a case of the standard PS4 game is 1080p/30fps or 60fps and the Neo version runs at 4k/30fps or 60fps (depending on how demanding the graphics are)

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Can't wait for these upgraded consoles that are full backward compatible. Awesomeness.

 

[wachie]

That graph shows it to be clearly unplayable

average 30 fps does not mean sustained 30 fps, that graph shows drop into the teens for framerate, unacceptable

You need to average a lot more than 30 fps to get a game to be a locked 30 fps

So that's about how TW3 performs on the current consoles.

 

[madmackem]

So that's about how TW3 performs on the current consoles.

Nope, I see warriors from both sides are drawing lines in the sand already and we know nowt but rumours and leaked documents that could be well out of date by now.

 

[dracula_x]

Of course. It's a PC through and through. It would be ridiculous to not have bc from now on.

To be fair, "PC" doesn't mean anything. For example, try to run DirectX-based game on NetBSD on the same hardware.

 

[c0de]

To be fair, "PC" doesn't mean anything. For example, try to run DirectX-based game on NetBSD on the same hardware.

Of course. But it's not a hardware problem but a software one and I think it's safe to say that this problem is solvable by Sony and MS. They both have control over hardware and software.

 

[oldergamer]

I agree! If most games that come out for the Scorpio, can't be played on the Xbox One, then it is a new generation for MS.

But if the same games on the same disc can play on the Xbox Scorpio and the Xbox One.....then that's just a Xbox 1.5 (or xbox 1.75 if that makes you feel better).

That doesn't make any sense at all. it seems you are stretching to make the difference between possible xbox hardware hardware as minimal as possible. Then again, as long as you support the base, you can make the scorpio/neo version as crazy looking as you want. Your game just needs to have a low and high detail option ( similar to PC games ) and you have the added benefit of a larger user base spanning two hardware revisions ( like PC games ).

I don't expect there to be any games that can be played on both old/new for another [X] years ( imo say 3 or 4 years ). Same thing applies to Neo. In most cases we're simply talking about, resolution framerate, lighting, and hardware graphical features used. All of which can be managed by the game executable.

If you have Xbone, the difference between it and scorpio is running in a lower resolution, frame rate or turning off graphical features ( similar to the difference between xbone and ps4 multiplat games). This won't be like the difference between ps3 and xbox 360 multiplatform games where you saw distinct differences in texturing, graphical features, geometry, frame rate and resolution on a regular basis.

After the required support period is complete, then the platform is open to be coded for without supporting the old model.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Everyone is so focused on the GPU, but the GPU will be good regardless. I'm more interested in the next xbox having great memory bandwidth, notably better than what the Xbox One does, even more system RAM, and a much advanced CPU. If this next system, whatever it's packing, has those three things then we are officially in business.

I personally would like to see a minimum of 12GB of RAM in the next Xbox, preferably 16GB, a much more advanced CPU, and at least 280GB/s of memory bandwidth, preferably 300GB/s or better..

If Microsoft ends up waiting till late 2017 then they might as well take advantage of whatever tech advancements that they can.

Your effectively describing a new generation console base on available tech at the time, that happens to be backwards compatible.

MS has to balance between tech and price .
The specs you asking for would cost a fair amount even in 2017 .
And anyone thinking MS going to eat a big lost ( meaning anything over $50 maybe).
Are kidding there self.

Seems like you want a PC...no system (ie console) is gonna have those specs for a reasonable price even in late 2017 without taking a bath in red.

I got my wish, sorta. I think 12GB minimum might be assured based on the way things are looking right now. I got better than I hoped with the over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth announcement. a more advanced cpu (possibly Zen) is looking like it really may happen when all is said and done, and we have confirmation on the 6tflop GPU. Now the question becomes, can Microsoft actually sell something like this in late 2017 for a good enough price? I think they almost certainly can.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I got my wish, sorta. I think 12GB minimum might be assured based on the way things are looking right now. I got better than I hoped with the over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth announcement. a more advanced cpu (possibly Zen) is looking like it really may happen when all is said and done, and we have confirmation on the 6tflop GPU. Now the question becomes, can Microsoft actually sell something like this in late 2017 for a good enough price? I think they almost certainly can.

With all of those components (6T GPU, 12 GB of RAM @ 320 GB/s, Zen CPU), I think we're looking at $499 minimum..which, for how powerful that is, seems like a somewhat good price for what you get...but way too expensive for the mainstream. I'd be blown away if they offer it at $399, but I seriously doubt it.

Seems to be a bit of a waste having all that power and yet be held back a bit by requiring Xbox One compatibility.

Also, I've said it before...but even at $499 I'd probably buy it IF Microsoft allows me to also use it as a PC. Could totally be what steam machines weren't. At $499, for that power, and a win10 device, I think it'd really have a lot of value.

 

[PeterLegend]

I think if Neo is considerably weaker than Scorpio it has to launch holiday 2016. Waiting until early 2017 would be a mistake

 

[BurgerDicks]

Theyll revamp the specs. Its almost impossible that Neo makes it out this holiday, even its doubtful early 20017 when it did not have some time at E3. Then again, the Saturn existed, so whatever the fuck happens, happens.

 

[ethomaz]

Theyll revamp the specs. Its almost impossible that Neo makes it out this holiday, even its doubtful early 20017 when it did not have some time at E3. Then again, the Saturn existed, so whatever the fuck happens, happens.

Sony is betting in a Apple way release with announce and out next week.

Neo will release this year.

 

[PdotMichael]

To be fair, "PC" doesn't mean anything. For example, try to run DirectX-based game on NetBSD on the same hardware.

It's not about being "PC", which is silly anyway because there isn't such a thing as PC hardware architecture but consoles and PC share the same x86 architure because ARM isn't really an alternative for the console sector right now and developing special snowflake solutions is too expensive, but there is no reason for Sony to move to something else in the future.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I got my wish, sorta. I think 12GB minimum might be assured based on the way things are looking right now. I got better than I hoped with the over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth announcement. a more advanced cpu (possibly Zen) is looking like it really may happen when all is said and done, and we have confirmation on the 6tflop GPU. Now the question becomes, can Microsoft actually sell something like this in late 2017 for a good enough price? I think they almost certainly can.

You were pretty close. Just need to see that price.

 

[Proelite]

Sony can do a upclock on the GPU to get to 1066 mhz, which is still 200mhz under the base clock for Polaris 10. That's 4.9 teraflops. Combine with the CPU, they can announce the system as having over 5 teraflops of computing power. 5 v 6 the difference is completely trivial sounding. If Sony pushes for better visuals and framerates at 1080p, combined with how much better Sony exclusives ALREADY look on the PS4, the 4k / VR marketing for Scorpio falls flat on its face when the games are shown side by side, or in videos.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Sony is betting in a Apple way release with announce and out next week.

Neo will release this year.

That seems extremely unlikely. Sony's hardware focus this year will be VR.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

That seems extremely unlikely. Sony's hardware focus this year will be VR.

Honestly I have no idea what Sony is going to do and I think they like it that way. I just hope it is out by time Horizon Zero Dawn launches(another short delay would not surprise me).

 

[Polari]

Why are they sticking with Jaguar? Price? Seems bizarre if that's going to be the bottleneck. I mean, like PC developers will just be able to create games with a PS4 and a Neo profile, right? It means things won't be as optimised, but that's a sacrifice they seem willing to make anyway.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Why are they sticking with Jaguar? Price? Seems bizarre if that's going to be the bottleneck. I mean, like PC developers will just be able to create games with a PS4 and a Neo profile, right? It means things won't be as optimised, but that's a sacrifice they seem willing to make anyway.

They are not sticking with Jaguar if OsirisBlack is to be believed. He recently said the minimum price of the Neo has increased to $499 from an earlier minimum of $399. His initial comment stated that a $499 Neo would include an upgrade in CPU(not a Jaguar).

 

[Renekton]

Sony can do a upclock on the GPU to get to 1066 mhz, which is still 200mhz under the base clock for Polaris 10. That's 4.9 teraflops. Combine with the CPU, they can announce the system as having over 5 teraflops of computing power. 5 v 6 the difference is completely trivial sounding. If Sony pushes for better visuals and framerates at 1080p, combined with how much better Sony exclusives ALREADY look on the PS4, the 4k / VR marketing for Scorpio falls flat on its face when the games are shown side by side, or in videos.

After the nutjob PS3, Sony seems to value form factor + thermals over raw performance.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

After the nutjob PS3, Sony seems to value form factor + thermals over raw performance.

What the Cell have to do with using tweaked versions of off-the-shelf parts from AMD? That is exactly what the current PS4 is. Virtually no risk involved here.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

With all of those components (6T GPU, 12 GB of RAM @ 320 GB/s, Zen CPU), I think we're looking at $499 minimum..which, for how powerful that is, seems like a somewhat good price for what you get...but way too expensive for the mainstream. I'd be blown away if they offer it at $399, but I seriously doubt it.

Seems to be a bit of a waste having all that power and yet be held back a bit by requiring Xbox One compatibility.

Also, I've said it before...but even at $499 I'd probably buy it IF Microsoft allows me to also use it as a PC. Could totally be what steam machines weren't. At $499, for that power, and a win10 device, I think it'd really have a lot of value.

Why? In late 2017 it'll be pretty much on the same relative performance/cost level as the PS4 was in 2013.

 

[Proelite]

After the nutjob PS3, Sony seems to value form factor + thermals over raw performance.

In this situation the small cost increase in cooling is easily worth it from a PR / Marking POV, imo.

 

[RedRum]

In reading some of the comments here, I believe it becomes "the next generation of consoles" when you can no longer stick a game in the PS4/Neo, XBO/Scorpio and have it play and the only means to do so is an emulator or something else.

 

[onanie]

In reading some of the comments here, I believe it becomes "the next generation of consoles" when you can no longer stick a game in the PS4/Neo, XBO/Scorpio and have it play and the only means to do so is an emulator or something else.

this is a good definition.

 

[martino]

this is a good definition.

it's because too much people live in a world where nintendo not exist anymore because since gamecabe this definition don't apply to them.

 

[samar11]

Sorry if this has been discussed yet, but can we expect the neo to run games at 1080p/60fps and perhaps some better effects etc ?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

No. Like this generation people expected 1080p60 games and developers used the extra power to make better looking 1080p30 games. It's possible but not definite.

 

[Thejackburton]

If you take in console optimisations as well you could hit 4K on neo. I really don't give a shit about 4K on consoles tbh.

 

[Three]

A new generation means sticking any game (and I mean any) designed for the new console into the old one and it doesn't work.

 

[samar11]

No. Like this generation people expected 1080p60 games and developers used the extra power to make better looking 1080p30 games. It's possible but not definite.

Well that sucks, love to play gow4,horizon,spiderman etc on 60fps