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Only 3% of games shown at E3 keynotes featured exclusively female protagonists
- Thread starter Spring Drive
- Start date
I feel it's a little disingenuous to gloss over games that let you choose a gender (and thus fall under 'either'), but have a female as default. I get that you don't want to overcomplicate your pie chart, but those games, like ME: Andromeda, should still count in my opinion. There was a lady protagonist in the trailer and everything. Giving players a default female protagonist but also giving them the option of going male should not be seen as feminist-neutral or feminist-unfriendly, but right now it seems like it is viewed as neutral at best.
Was really proud of the other thread where someone pointed out that there are minority leads from major publishers this year.
Obviously 3% is bad when you quantify it this way, but we shouldn't lose sight of all of the inclusion being added into games. That a lot of games allow you to be who you want to be. More representation is happening.
Obviously 3% is bad when you quantify it this way, but we shouldn't lose sight of all of the inclusion being added into games. That a lot of games allow you to be who you want to be. More representation is happening.
tareqsalah1
Member
Well said.
I think those who complain about games not including female prot or minorities or people with different sexual orientation should go make games themselves and include who ever they want.
Im arab, i have been playing games staring white protagonists for 20 years and im 100% ok.
That is ridiculous
Not saying there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't think that comparison makes sense. You should compare the amount of female players vs games with female leads, not women in general. You would still be right, and it would make more sense.
MMaRsu
Banned
I know there are many female gamers. Its just that the number of male gamers probably vastly outnumbers the female gamers.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I just think females on the whole are less interested in videogames, at least in my 29 years of living this has been my experience.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's not because one of the main points is that in Andromeda, men still have an option of being men. This is not a problem, but it does not count for the sake of this discussion because it's focusing on how much more often games only offer a man as an option vs. games that only offer a woman as an option.
But they don't. The variance between male and female gamers is like, eight percent, at best.
Depends on what you think is good. Having playable female leads or having games where you only can play a female.
One sounds reasonable, the other kinda extreme.
Do you have any source for that? (especially in terms of the type of games that appeared at E3).
AFAICT the problem is more that most E3 games tend to be 'action movies', and have a horribly lopsided gender-bias in their markets.
Well some would argue that this has a lot to do with the way games are designed and presented. A lot of women play videogames but perhaps even more would if they had stories and characters they could relate to more.
MMaRsu
Banned
Any source for that? If that's truly the case then I'm very surprised there are not more games that feature female protagonists.
And maybe it has something to do with the country I live in ( The Netherlands ) but I've not met a lot of women who are into videogames. Doesnt mean they dont exist, just that in my experience almost every guy plays videogames but women rarely do.
And yeah obviously not talking about mobile games and facebook games.
Are you including casual mobile gamers? Because I don't think they should count, since that market is not interested in events like these.
MMaRsu
Banned
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Extreme? Does "Having games where you can only play as a male" sound extreme to you as well? Because that's probably 95% of games.
Gee one might wonder why this is the case.
Thanks, misread the OP.
……forgetit
Member
Question, is it possible that it's not the overall industry, but the kind of games showcased at E3? A quick google tells me the split is incredibly skewed toward a male audience in FPS's and action games, the main showcase at E3. Not sure how accurate this study id though.
http://toucharcade.com/2015/11/17/men-and-women-love-endless-runners/
Character driven games like those that get shown at conferences tend to skew action, sports and FPS-y
http://toucharcade.com/2015/11/17/men-and-women-love-endless-runners/
Character driven games like those that get shown at conferences tend to skew action, sports and FPS-y
okay, you realize that every single game character ever created (outside of explicit adaptations from other mediums) is created from scratch for that game, right?
There is no such thing as a "natural" game character, or a game character that isn't "shoehorned" into a game to some degree.
You don't get white male characters for free, and female/minority characters don't cost extra. You have to create them all from the ground up, design them all visually, model and texture them all, etc.
This idea that white male video game characters are "natural" is nothing but a cultural bias favoring white men.
I don't don't take issue with the counting. it is pretty obvious what this means is there is still a large void where there should be women story tellers, developers, artists and project managers in the gaming industry. Until then you may see the unisex games percentage increase and that 3 percent may get to 10 but the landscape won't be truely diverse enough.
And that is not to say male authors cannot write great female characters, because they can. It just means that these projects will not have enough creative influence to make them more believable visually. Because at the end of the day reading a book still uses the readers imagination to fill in the gaps. Movies and tv do not. Games are more like those than books so representation needs to fundamentally be treated as such.
Robert Martin, aka Uncle Bob in the programming world, did a few sessions this year In the UK about the future of programming. It started with a long, long introduction with the history of programming. Women were 50/50 seen in the computing rooms and job market at the inception of the industry. It wasn't until the late 70s and early 80s that middle management and bottom line was created and in turn needed a highly competitive environment with lowered pay for young people who could thrive in that highly competitive environment. And so began the exodus of the woman from the industry.
It is pervasive to this very day and there are a lot of questions we need to ask ourselves to course correct it.
Here is a link to the video. He does this topic often rallying for older programmers and women to not leave the industry.
https://skillsmatter.com/skillscasts/8016-the-future-of-programming
And that is not to say male authors cannot write great female characters, because they can. It just means that these projects will not have enough creative influence to make them more believable visually. Because at the end of the day reading a book still uses the readers imagination to fill in the gaps. Movies and tv do not. Games are more like those than books so representation needs to fundamentally be treated as such.
Robert Martin, aka Uncle Bob in the programming world, did a few sessions this year In the UK about the future of programming. It started with a long, long introduction with the history of programming. Women were 50/50 seen in the computing rooms and job market at the inception of the industry. It wasn't until the late 70s and early 80s that middle management and bottom line was created and in turn needed a highly competitive environment with lowered pay for young people who could thrive in that highly competitive environment. And so began the exodus of the woman from the industry.
It is pervasive to this very day and there are a lot of questions we need to ask ourselves to course correct it.
Here is a link to the video. He does this topic often rallying for older programmers and women to not leave the industry.
https://skillsmatter.com/skillscasts/8016-the-future-of-programming
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
So looking at the overall big picture, plenty of games allow you to play as a female character.
Moreso then what we received in the past.
Moreso then what we received in the past.
A Link to the Past
Banned
If we're talking about console owners, there is actually a five percent difference between men and women
Except that more console owners are women
http://www.themarysue.com/game-console-demographics/
Except that more console owners are women
http://www.themarysue.com/game-console-demographics/
As I said, it's great that we have so many games where it's a choice. I even said that i LOVE that. In half of the games shown on the big stage it's completely up to you what you want to play as (binary gender wise). The "doesn't matter" part is just about how it's shown in the game. There is no difference at all between a female protag and a male protag, it's just a skin. Of course it matters to me that I can choose to play a female, but the choice is just what skin I want to put onto Protag X.
But, we also need female perspectives in games, and we don't get that when the character is not made with a specific gender in mind. Female perspective and stories from a female point of view is what I mean when I say female stories. It definitely does not mean "girly" or anything else stereotypical.
We might want our society to be equal but the fact is that it isn't, and as long as it isn't, we need stories told from the perpective of minorities too. Naughty Dog said that they wanted to make a game about a father and a girl. That dynamic was important to them. We might want the dynamic to be completely the same if we switched their genders to a mother and a boy, but in reality today that normally isn't the case.
It doesn't mean a woman can't save the universe or that some women can't be the exact "same people" as some men, those stories already exist due to games where you can choose your gender. And a story from a female perspective can still be a story about saving the universe.
We need all of those categories of female protags you mentioned, and we need to make sure publishers know that we will buy games about and with leading female characters and other minorities so that they stop being stupid by erasing everything but the white man from AAA gaming.
You know, posting over and over that dubious poll doesn't really help anybody, since if women were actually 52% of gamers, it would imply they are more than fine with the status quo and the current industry.
MMaRsu
Banned
This is US only, and what is the sample size?
The world is not just the US, and neither is the market where videogames sell.
MMaRsu
Banned
I dont know, why dont't you tell me?
Dragon Puncher
Member
Isn't being able to choose gender at least as good a sign of equality than having only a female protagonist? It seems to me that we have actually come a long way in that regard. Games like Dishonered 2 and Mass Effect: Andromeda having both, but focusing on the female lead are good examples of this.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Uh, okay? Most people, regardless of gender, race, whatever, are people who work to upheave the status quo. I've no idea why you think this inherently implies a negative thing, or makes women look worse. It's reflective of people usually not caring.
All right? If you had a figure to compare that to, that'd be great.
We cannot call it equality, because it ain't equal. Better is great, but I'd take comparable any day. :v
I get that when you look at gender-exclusive games, there's a very large gap that needs adressing. However, not counting Mass Effect: Andromeda, a game that features a female protagonist and still offers the option of playing as a man, is being far too strict. What's not good enough about the way Andromeda does it? That game is including men. That is in no way unfriendly to women and it deserves mentioning by both Feminist Frequency and The Verge.
No prob.
A Link to the Past
Banned
But it doesn't fit the criteria, so it isn't included. The point is to address the massive disparity.
Don't telephone polls skew towards household ownership?
So only American women play video games? What?
TropicalFish
Member
I have never in my life encountered a POC or female character being 'shoehorned' into a game.
Not like being shoehorned is wrong. I'm all for POC and female character shoehorning. Shoehorning FTW.
Not like being shoehorned is wrong. I'm all for POC and female character shoehorning. Shoehorning FTW.
Foldedpencil
Banned
The thing is, some gender select games do a very good job making the protagonist into a fleshed out character both ways. I played all of the Mass Effects as Fem Shep and it never made a difference to me that there was a Male Shep. I will always think of the main character in that game as a badass woman who didn't take any crap, saved the galaxy, and flirted up some aliens. I think the real issue is that these games often market the male character, and therefore don't defy the norm that we often think of heroes as male. But to say that gender selectable characters are only "avatars" is overlooking some really great work being done in the industry. Not every game is Skyrim.
Does it ultimately matter what percentage of gamers worldwide is female and what percentage is male? It seems to me that neither gender is more predisposed to liking video games than the other gender. So let's leave those numbers by the wayside and simply start including women characters just as much as men.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Wouldn't that contradict the fact that the biggest age group is the least likely to be the owner/operator of a household?
Because if we really went from an industry with very little female players (SNES era) to an industry where most players (and apparently console owners) are women (Current era), then it means the industry is on the right track to pander to women? So they are fine with the majority of playable character being males like this E3 and the current releases?
I understand that, but by glossing over games like ME:A (again: default female protag, male optional), you are painting a bleaker total picture than the reality of the situation.
EDIT: I won't say it's much bleaker, but I still feel you're looking at the situation in a way that makes it look more woman-unfriendly than it is. Tipping the scales ever-so-slightly, as it were.
If it leads to lost revenues then, can you blame the publishers?
It's not just marketing the male character, but giving the option of a male character gives the publishers an excuse to cater to people that refuse to play as a woman.
Dishonored 2 is a perfect example, why is there a male lead in that game when the game was clearly designed around Emily? Very simple, they didn't want to make the protagonist exclusively female, which would alienate a lot of misogynists. As it is now they get to have the cake and eat it too.
Mass Effect makes sense because it's an RPG, Dishonored is just a case of the publisher getting cold feet.
……forgetit
Member
The big issue in this study is that it doesn't really go into who's using the console. Anecdotal, but if you were to ask my mom in 2005 if she owned a game console she'd say yes, but me and my brother were the ones who used them. It doesn't account for family ownership.
You can enjoy something and still think it and the stuff around it is a bit problematic. I can enjoy games and at the same time try to express that I would love more games made with a female perspective in mind (without changing the current games to be that, just making even more games).
A Link to the Past
Banned
The answer is an empathetic "no." It uses synthesis to form a connection that is not shown to exist as of yet. You cannot say "the majority of gamers are women, and thus women are okay with the status quo" - and this is especially true because that thread is not inherently being made about the opposite scenario (with men being the majority). You take "no comment" as a default "I'm okay with this." Refer to the thread about a video where Japanese citizens were okay with Motoko Kusanagi being white, though for several answers they were kind of "whatever" about it. When they were informed of problematic stuff, and asked questions about significantly more problematic issues (like the casting call for Light in Death Note only seeking white actors), they were less okay with stuff like that. You are inventing the reason for why people are okay with the status quo, when ignorance is the simplest answer.
They gloss over it for the same reason they gloss over a lot of things that are off-topic
The article is about the issue of how many games only star men vs. how many games only star women. I would just as soon expect them to bring up MEA as I would expect them to bring up dental floss. The subject does not relate to MEA, so when you make it seem unfair, you're essentially asking that they misrepresent the reality of the situation.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
I'm not favoring white men, I could careless who I play as in a videogame. I think there's a lot bigger problems in my life to concern myself with, I was just giving my opinion on the matter. Still, you're misconstruing my words to try and suit your argument but yes every character is created from scratch, this I understand but there have been instances where characters undergo somewhat radical changes because of outcries from the fans and game community at large and my point is I don't want to see that happen in terms of there being an influx of minorities/females as game leads because of backlash from fervent fans or fans pushing that or executives pushing that to try and generate more sales and publicity for a title.
People fail to realize that fans hold near domineering power over a lot of design choices that ostensibly they are the ones creating the game and not the developer. Anyway I'll say this, I am all for a more diverse assortment of game characters, different races, religions, species, colors, male, female, whatever, inclusion is never a bad thing. If you took the time to read my posts throughout this thread instead of telling how I'm conditioned and putting words in my mouth you'd see I never said anything like you suggested.
1. You're assuming that white dudes only want to play games featuring themselves and cannot relate.
2. You're assuming that the current overwhelming dominance of white dudes is the most profitable one
3. You're assuming that profits justify immoral behavior. If the majority of consumers wanted racist and sexist content, does that mean that companies are justified in producing racist and sexist content
A Link to the Past
Banned
It doesn't though. The idea that it hurts sales is the product of the belief that it hurts sales. It's a self-fulfilling worry.
People keep talking about sales, but GTA: San Andreas was the best selling non-bundled game ever for a very very long time, right now the best selling games ever are Minecraft and GTAV, one features pixel-y cubes and the other has a PoC as a protagonist (the best protagonist in the game as well).
Sorry I'm not an expert, I just remember reading this post from a guy who is actually an expert on these things
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=184280399&postcount=2035
The blogs you posted just edited the image to fit their narrative since the margin of error is so huge.
I understand that the core of this topic is games with an exclusively gendered protagonist.
However, to say that ME:A, with its default female protagonist and optional male one, is as irrelevant to this discussion as dental floss is a gross exaggeration. At worst it is not off-topic, it is a perfectly relevant side note.
When ME:A is released, players that opt to play as a woman will only be confronted with the optional male protagonist in the damn character creation screen for all of one minute. That is what makes this game completely irrelevant to this discussion?! Get outta here.