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Only 3% of games shown at E3 keynotes featured exclusively female protagonists

g11

Member
Imagine someone who is a muslim as a lead.

Wasn't the lead of the original Assassin's Creed a Muslim? That's the only one I can think of offhand and even then I'm not sure.

As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.
 

MuchoMalo

Banned
see my above post. That is an excuse for the low number, but doesn't mean it'll get any better, seeing as the newly unveiled games are almost exclusively based around male characters.
We already have those male-protagonist-centric franchises, like Uncharted, Halo, CoD, God of War - so the only way to get more female protagonists, is to either change the protagonist of established franchises (*cough* Zelda) or introduce new franchises around female characters.
And both ReCore and Horizon were unveiled last year.

You're right, it might not get any better. I still disagree on Zelda or really changing anything just for the sake of doing so since it's really just going to be a PR move and nothing more, but realistically PR is the only reason publishers would ever require it (even though I know that some people are perfectly fine with that). I know that nobody wants to hear this, but the only way properly fix the problem is for more women to take the initiative in the industry. Pointing fingers obviously isn't getting anyone anywhere, and I don't personally believe that it ever will.
 
Why does it have to be exclusively female characters? Mass Effect is using the female version as default. Detroit has Kara (which wasn't shown because we already met her in the first trailer).

This is nitpicking.

Because it does nothing to challenge the status quo. As long as most men can play as a man, they'll pick that option and never experience that game as a woman. So their views won't be challenged.
 
Wasn't the lead of the original Assassin's Creed a Muslim? That's the only one I can think of offhand and even then I'm not sure.

As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.

I don't think Altair was ever depicted as being muslim. He had a muslim father and a catholic mother, but I think the creed was probably the closest thing he himself had to a religion.

And while I understand what you're saying, but they're simply saying that male characters are given pride of place through being the sole choice of a greater number of many more games that publishers feel warrant display at their press events (IE, warrant massive budgets.) I think it's a reasonable point to make.
 
Wasn't the lead of the original Assassin's Creed a Muslim? That's the only one I can think of offhand and even then I'm not sure.

As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.

So you count Mass Effect for presenting a female main character but also Detroit who only presented a male main character?
They only went over the keynotes as denoted, which is perfectly reasonable when that's the most front facing part about E3.

The worst that can be said is a clickbaitey title.
 

Spyware

Member
As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.
It's two different things. Yes it's nice that we often get to choose now. I love that. But we still need more games that are about "female stories" and "female characters". Not games where a female is randomly put into the story (games where you can choose and it ultimately doesn't matter).
As I wrote in my earlier post about those games that would count but was not shown on the big stage, it's important to point out that they are not shown. We need to put games like that on the big stage to show that there are more games with exclusively female protags. Since they exist, isn't it strange that only 3 % of the games that got time on the big stage had exclusively female protags?


Btw...
Dishonored 2 is a choose gender game I would say should actually count as a female protag game. It really sounds like it's Emily's story and Corvo is only in there because he's the old protag that people like playing as (because of awesome powers) and the devs thought the choice would be a positive thing.
 

RMI

Banned
Props to the few developers of games that do feature female lead characters. Definitely the number is lower than it should be and I know that I have enjoyed many games with female protagonists (Tomb Raider, Bayonetta, Mirror's Edge, etc). I'm very much looking forward to Horizon Zero Dawn, also.

I don't see the lack of female protagonists changing much while the industry is dominated by males and so hostile to females, but hopefully one day women in the industry will be able to speak up without getting bombarded with death and rape threats, and without having hordes of assholes mobilizing to get them fired. The industry still has a lot of growing up to do, in terms of how it often fails to shield women from this type of abuse, and the audience obviously has some sickening elements as well.
 

g11

Member
I don't think Altair was ever depicted as being muslim. He had a muslim father and a catholic mother, but I think the creed was probably the closest thing he himself had to a religion.

And while I understand what you're saying, but they're simply saying that male characters are given pride of place through being the sole choice of a greater number of many more games that publishers feel warrant display at their press events (IE, warrant massive budgets.) I think it's a reasonable point to make.

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. It's been nearly a decade so I probably was just misremembering about Altair.

And yeah I get that but I think they could have easily made that point even if you included games where playing as a female lead is an option. Even including them the number is probably what, 30%? Maybe 40%? Still plenty of room for improvement, although I think other people were making the point that minority leads are still much more rare than female leads. There was Lincoln Clay in Mafia 3 but that's the only one I can think of offhand.

So you count Mass Effect for presenting a female main character but also Detroit who only presented a male main character?
They only went over the keynotes as denoted, which is perfectly reasonable when that's the most front facing part about E3.

The worst that can be said is a clickbaitey title.

I count both because you can play a female in both, as far as we know. Detroit debut trailer was all about Kara, a female android (I guess you could argue being an android might disqualify the game, but if that's the case, an argument could be made that Deus Ex shouldn't count in either gender binary either). As for covering only keynotes, I get that they are making a point, but honestly to a woman out there desperate to play games as a female, I really doubt it matters if the game in which she can do that debuted at a press conference as long as the game is awesome and fun to play and the lead character is treated and written respectfully.
 

Gold_Loot

Member
Wasn't the lead of the original Assassin's Creed a Muslim? That's the only one I can think of offhand and even then I'm not sure.

As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.
Gaming as a whole should be enjoyed by all kinds of people from all walks of life. That's why I think it's important to have a some variety in player character color and gender.
However, we are dealing with extremists on all sides of these debates. While the general message of feminist frequency may be a positive one, number stretching and moving goalposts are to be expected sadly.
 

kiguel182

Member
So, the female only games decreased. That's a bummer. I was really hoping the industry would make good on increasing diversity but we still have a long way to go.

The fact that the choice to play as either male or female increased is good even if not ideal given the only 3 per cent for female only.
 

Shiggy

Member
What's really interesting to me is that the extremely, factually racist act of removing black people from stories has remained unchanged today - with the sole exception that we no longer call it racism. Now, it's artistic freedom. These "artists" don't have the dignity to erase black people from their works and then call it what it is, racism.

Let's first take a look at a definition of 'racism':
"Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de/definition/englisch_usa/racism

Don't you think your comment is quite a stretch? I have a hard time believing that the creative leads at Quantic Dream have the belief that they are superior to black people and thus chose two white protagonists (with a third still to be shown). Just because a story is based in Detroit, the main character does not necessarily have to be a person representing the majority in that location. The game can still be good, regardless of such questions. Again, it's a fictional story, not reality.


Are you suggesting that the reason Sony wanted Ellie off of the cover wasn't for the sake of pandering to men, and the reason why Netflix turned down a show with a black lead wasn't for the sake of pandering to whites?

So where do white males benefit from it? I certainly cannot see a benefit for myself or any other white male. Would be glad if you at least tried to explain instead of just repeating yourself.


Arguments tend to be one-sided when one side has nothing in the way of solid argument.

That's always the best way to engage in a discussion. Not trying to engage at all.


Yes, I agree, you absolutely don't care. Because you don't HAVE to care. And I really, really hope you reflect upon why you are so adamantly against the idea that people who have to constantly settle for and hope for games that represent people like them do. Because people who don't care about representation and people who complain about those who care are categorically separate.

Why do I have to care who appears in a movie, game or any other story as long as the story is enjoyable? You seriously cannot enjoy a game with a white male? Because I greatly enjoy movies and series with non-white males. And I definitely do not think that is detrimental to my joy (nor does it necessarily enhance it). Perhaps you should just try to calm down a bit and reflect on your sense of "self-justice". Maybe then you will also be able to enjoy media which do not have characters who represent yourself.


You bring up some very odd statements in your posts. White males benefitting from Sony's and Netflix' decisions to not have a female character on cover or have a show with a black cast, telling me that I am only happy because white males are overrepresented in Western media, and so on. Obviously, if you want to discuss in an orderly manner, you should explain such statements properly as they do not make too much sense at this point. And making wild assumptions about me being well-represented in games and thus not making the demands that you make, is an incredibly poor (and actually untrue) argument. I do not know you, you do not know me. You may strongly identify with your skin colour, origin, or other traits (whatever those might be), I do not. And that's certainly not due to media representation, in fact, the last thing I would feel represented by is those white male video game characters.


Are you part of this demographic and want game stories that you identify with? Or are you just shitposting?

While he is "shitposting", I don't think you necessarily have to be part of that demographic to ask for more representation of a certain group. I would be all in for more diversity in all directions. You don't necessarily have to identify with those if you think it could create better or different stories. And having the story revolve around a handicapped person could be more interesting than the poster you were quoting would think.
 
So, the female only games decreased. That's a bummer. I was really hoping the industry would make good on increasing diversity but we still have a long way to go.

The fact that the choice to play as either male or female increased is good even if not ideal given the only 3 per cent for female only.
Going by the games in press conferences mentioned in the article, the percent is lower than 3 and diversity is about the same it's always been, if we don't count indis.
 

g11

Member
It's two different things. Yes it's nice that we often get to choose now. I love that. But we still need more games that are about "female stories" and "female characters". Not games where a female is randomly put into the story (games where you can choose and it ultimately doesn't matter).
As I wrote in my earlier post about those games that would count but was not shown on the big stage, it's important to point out that they are not shown. We need to put games like that on the big stage to show that there are more games with exclusively female protags. Since they exist, isn't it strange that only 3 % of the games that got time on the big stage had exclusively female protags?
\.

A couple things here:

I get what you are trying to say, but to say female characters with "female stories" makes it sound to me like you are saying the stories need to be "girly" which would no doubt be a different look for video games and a breath of fresh air, ultimately I think there are people that would take that negatively, the tacit implication being that female characters can't save the world and the like. Case in point, you say here "Not games where a female is randomly put into the story...[and their gender doesn't matter]" and yet earlier in this thread someone said something in a similar vein about "shoehorning" in female characters, i.e. just inserting a female protag into a game that otherwise their gender doesn't matter, and they were taken to task for it.

I would venture to guess it's situations like these that also lead to dedicated female protags still being a rarity. From a business perspective, publishers look at it and think "well, no one ever went wrong making their main character male" and from a purely sales perspective, that's probably mostly accurate. On the other hand, some people who want a female protagonist just want the ability to play as a female, some want a female-specific lead where she does all the stuff a male protagonist would do (an Ellen Ripley type heroine), and some want a female protagonist in a female-centric setting or situation and each group is not thrilled at the idea of a game of the other type female lead.
 
Giving players the choice (of gender or ethnicity) does not necessarily mean that you have to branch out massively. That doesn't work for all games, obviously, not to mention that depending on the game there may be a substantial effort involved that may not be feasible.

True, though many of the games that do give you the choice fall under this category (mostly Western RPGs).

Examples of games that give you the choice that aren't Western RPGs off of the top of my head:

The Sims
Harvest Moon
Animal Crossing
Pokémon
Rock Band/Guitar Hero
Souls series
Resident Evil 1

By in large, nothing really changes in these depending on your avatar's ethnicity or gender with Resident Evil 1 being the obvious exception. RE1 is one of the few games where choosing your gender changes the story in fairly significant ways. I'd imagine Dishonored 2 is probably going this route as well.

As an aside, I'm not saying that all games should take notice of my gender or ethnicity. I'm merely stating that games that have only a female protag and build the narrative around that have a remarkably different feel to them than inserting a blank slate avatar into a preexisting narrative.

This is exactly why games with a choosable character aren't a replacement for games with a fixed main character. It's why having 49% of games where you can choose your gender doesn't make up for the 3% where you play a female, especially when you take into account that you play a male in 41% of games.

We are in agreement then.

0% of the games showed handicapt christian man with only one feet and six fingers.

Fucking gameindustry!

bGguTaR.gif


The 3% figure in the title is manipulating the stats a little to exaggerate the narrative, but yeah still an on going concern for sure.


It was 9% last year, for what it's worth. I see I'm very late on clarifying this point but I'll leave it in regardless.
 

g11

Member
When people are saying "female stories," they do not mean "girly stories." That you think in such limited terms speak more to you than anyone.

Please enlighten me what exactly makes something a "female story" then, because honestly I can't think of anything in most games or movies starring men that make them objectively "male stories". Having a penis is entirely inconsequential to pretty much every male leading character in games that I can think of besides maybe Kratos.
 

Steroyd

Member
A game can feature a character who just happens to be female, or a woman whose femininity is integral to the themes or narrative. Both of these can be fine and good things. You don't have a lot of room to explore femininity in a CoD, but the aforementioned Life is Strange affords the opportunity in a cool, positive way.

True SE claims that FFXV is about dudes on a road trip and that's fine haven't played Life is Strange but did play Left Behind Last of Us expansion and that was well done to, that said putting in a female lead where it doesn't matter what gender they are for example Elena could be the main character of Uncharted but she'd be doing the same things with the same wit that's prevelant in the game and that's not a negative in any way.
 
Please enlighten me what exactly makes something a "female story" then, because honestly I can't think of anything in most games or movies starring men that make them objectively "male stories". Having a penis is entirely inconsequential to pretty much every male leading character in games that I can think of besides maybe Kratos.

A story written explicitly for a female character, with their gender in mind. Yes, it can be modified to be a male character, just as God of War could be about a woman. Yet, it does not change that a lot of stories are written for men, and a lot written for women.
 
Yeah, I noticed while watching the conferences that there were very few "only female protag" games, especially when compared to the number of games where you could only play as a man.

Kinda disappointing after last year.

This will be solved by getting more women into game dev and allowing them to funnel their voices into products, and that will only happen if we stop pushing women away from tech fields in education + through harassment.
 

Majmun

Member
I wouldn't like the new God of War lead to be a female, or Tomb Raider getting a male lead.

There are a lot of existing franchises with a constant gender role. So it's no wonder the male percentage is higher because you can't just switch gender in some franchises.

I think switching genders in some franchises would alienate the fanbase. Heck, even changing race can cause fuss.

But yeah, there should be more NEW franchises with female leads.
 
I wouldn't like the new God of War lead to be a female, or Tomb Raider getting a male lead.

There are a lot of existing franchises with a constant gender role. So it's no wonder the male percentage is higher because you can't just switch gender in some franchises.

I think switching genders in some franchises would alienate the fanbase. Heck, even changing race can cause fuss.

Such ruckus eventually becomes all of nothing however.
 

Luigi87

Member
I certainly noticed the decrease in women protagonist games this year compared to last, but only 3%, that I didn't expect calculation wise.
 

GnawtyDog

Banned
The one that showed up, so far, is pretty good. Sony not showing Gravity Rush and Nier was a crime - we know. Sea of Thieves pirates can be females? Custom right?
 

Allonym

There should be more tampons in gaming
"Shoehorned"
You ever wonder why white males are never shoehorned into anything? Because we've been conditioned into believing that, that is the default.

I don't agree. Calling out female or minority protagonists as 'shoehorning' sounds an awful lot like assuming white males should be the default.

I understand that white males are ironically also shoehorned in games where they presence could easily be replaced with a man or woman of a differing race and it would have no impact on the narrative/game whatsoever. That's irrelevant to what I'm saying. My thing is, if a developer has a particular story in mind and they designed a story from the outset with a minority or female as the lead character or if there were creatives changes that made such a change appropriate, that's fine.

However, to add a woman or a minority as a lead to garner publicity, respect or increase consumer base and appeal to an untapped demographic is whack. I'm sorry that's how I feel. I wholeheartedly believe every sex and race deserves representation in games, I wouldn't argue the opposite but In my eyes, it's just as whack to set a quota for the number of minorities/female protagonist there are. I don't like being controlled or told what to do so how can I preside over someone I never met and tell them to alter their vision for their game to make it more appealing to me? If it's that big of a deal, I won't support their game and go play something else if I don't agree.

I don't think that I've been conditioned to believe that every protagonist in gaming should be white or accept that that is the norm. I like to think I'm not so impressionable.
 
Also it's worth noting that while 52% of games shown allow you to play as a woman... 90% of games shown allow you to play as a man.

So that "52%" on its own is a little misleading.
 
0% of the games showed handicapt christian man with only one feet and six fingers.

Fucking gameindustry!

The fact that you had to come up with some overly specific strawman to compare to a demographic that represents 50% of the human population only serves to show how ridiculous the lack of representation is.
 
I understand that white males are ironically also shoehorned in games where they presence could easily be replaced with a man or woman of a differing race and it would have no impact on the narrative/game whatsoever. That's irrelevant to what I'm saying. My thing is, if a developer has a particular story in mind and they designed a story from the outset with a minority or female as the lead character or if there were creatives changes that made such a change appropriate, that's fine.

However, to add a woman or a minority as a lead to garner publicity, respect or increase consumer base and appeal to an untapped demographic is whack. I'm sorry that's how I feel. I wholeheartedly believe every sex and race deserves representation in games, I wouldn't argue the opposite but In my eyes, it's just as whack to set a quota for the number of minorities/female protagonist there are. I don't like being controlled or told what to do so how can I preside over someone I never met and tell them to alter their vision for their game to make it more appealing to me? If it's that big of a deal, I won't support their game and go play something else if I don't agree.

I don't think that I've been conditioned to believe that every protagonist in gaming should be white or accept that that is the norm. I like to think I'm not so impressionable.

We're just saying that your energy would be better spent on real problems, not problems you think could be happening

We already know that the shoehorning of white men is happening, we can see it happening. That's worth examining.
 
I count both because you can play a female in both, as far as we know. Detroit debut trailer was all about Kara, a female android (I guess you could argue being an android might disqualify the game, but if that's the case, an argument could be made that Deus Ex shouldn't count in either gender binary either). As for covering only keynotes, I get that they are making a point, but honestly to a woman out there desperate to play games as a female, I really doubt it matters if the game in which she can do that debuted at a press conference as long as the game is awesome and fun to play and the lead character is treated and written respectfully.

But the statistic is about this E3 at which Kara was nowhere to be seen and Deus Ex was a noshow altogether anyway wasn't it?

This isn't an analysis of the industry in general, they covered what 50 games, but the games the big shots in the industry decided to highlight and how they are being presented.
 
I guess that's for games that only have a female playable character? Because otherwise the percentage should be much higher.

Regardless, its not too surprising. Overall, male protagonists sell more games more consistently, period. It's always been like that and it'll likely be like that for a long time.
 

El Topo

Member
C'mon. Where's the minority outrage article? There's only one black protagonist, from Mafia 3.

Why don't we make a thread about it? It's an interesting question that deserves its own topic. Is there a list of games shown at conferences that we could use (to keep things comparable to this)?
 

Caronte

Member
Because it does nothing to challenge the status quo. As long as most men can play as a man, they'll pick that option and never experience that game as a woman. So their views won't be challenged.

I doubt playing as Kara in Detroit is optional.
 
Watch Dogs 2 as well.

But this isn't an "outrage" article so I don't know what you're on about. The industry could do better in regards to racial minorities as well.

Yes definitely. It just seems like a disservice to mention the lack of female representation exclusively, instead of including minorities in the conversation as well. They are always usually separate articles when really they both suffer from the same underrepresentation.
 

Darkwater

Member
Wasn't the lead of the original Assassin's Creed a Muslim? That's the only one I can think of offhand and even then I'm not sure.

As for this survey, it seems they are going out of their way to make the numbers seem smaller than the are, at least going by the responses I've seen in this thread to people mentioning other games with a female lead. Nier, Bound, Gravity Rush 2? "They weren't at a press conference". Mass Effect Andromeda, Detroit, Dishonored 2, games with a character creator? "Doesn't count, you can play as a male too". Sorry but to discount all those games for such insignificant reasons and then say "3% representation for women in games at E3 2016" is downright disingenuous. If you have the option to play the entirety or majority of a game as a female, that should count.

I agree that The Verge's headline is clickbait-y. But even when you look past that, there are other numbers that simply do not lie: in 41% of games, you can only play as a male. In 3% of games, you can only play as a female. I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that's far too large of a gap.
 

Lime

Member
People don't understand that being exclusive is what men have been doing and are still doing in the vast majority of cases.

If male characters are 97% 41% exclusive, why can't there be more exclusive female characters?
 

Darkwater

Member
People don't understand that being exclusive is what men have been doing and are still doing in the vast majority of cases.

If male characters are 97% exclusive, why can't there be more exclusive female characters?

If I'm reading your post right, I don't think you are correct. 41% of games feature exclusively male protagonists, not 97%. There are other categories (either and n/a).
 

MMaRsu

Banned
Let me make one thing clear. I have nothing against women or minority's but have been called a racist on this board for not quite liking the setting the new Mafia game takes place. Has nothing to do with a black protag, but people will make up their minds and jump to conclusions.

I think it IS important for the game industry as a whole to change so that games that feature female and/or minority protags can still be huge and big ( looking at Horizon and Watch Dogs 2, Mafia 3, this is already happening ) and made by big studios.

Its a positive change that highlights parts about the game industry that its target market is mostly boys between the age of 16-28. But to be honest I still think this is the biggest market and wont change anytime soon.

Girls are just less interested in videogames, at least in my experience I've only met a handfull of women in my 29 years of living who are big into games like anyone here on GAF.

So I think that naturally there will be more male protags in the gaming industry until the actual market changes. Are youngfemale gamers not buying or enjoying games because they feature a male protag? That would be strange to me, as Id wouldnt mind playing as a female protag at all. In fact in Mass Effect and Fallout I usually play as a female.

Its good to look at issues within the game industry, and I really hate a movement like GG. And I have no issues playing as a minority character at all either, just to set the record straight.

But my point is, I'm not a big fan of condemning videogame developers because their videogame does not feature a female playable character. There is inherently nothing wrong with featuring a male protag just as there is nothing wrong with featuring a female protag.

Just my two cents
 
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