AlimNassor
Banned
I assume they shot because it was a hostage situation. She had her son held hostage and was armed and unwilling to listen to reason.
Isn't that the reason why we have negotiators?
Can someone explain to me how you can hold a 5 year old in your arms and aim and fire off a shotgun at police officers?
Something isn't adding up.
Nah, you don't go full Alamo over some unpaid traffic tickets. Not unless you have something much worse in the picture that you can't go to court over. Especially if you are going to involve your own kid as a hostage/bargaining chip.
Not only do I not trust the cops' story due to prior experience, but I have a very bad feeling about how they handled the end of this.
And straight up, I don't think it would have ended this way with a white mother and child.
I doubt she was holding a 5 year old in her arms for 4 hours, but she couldhave easily said "the police are here to kill you like I have been warning you about", making the kids cling to her like glue.
This thread title...really.
As one of the "let's wait for the facts" crew, I'll say that we should wait for both sides of the story.Does the "let's wait for all the facts 1st" crew only show up when the individual is white?
Not saying this particular incident is due to this, but I think some of the volatile interactions are because cops have lost their authority now that we know more about the shit they cover up. If cops want to be treated like the good guys, they have to start acting like the good guys.What a terrible tragedy. How do things like this keep happening? The culture in the US just seems to breed volatile police interactions and tense situations where shooting is much to easy of a solution for either side...
This thread title is highly misleading, it should read something like "Woman pointing gun at officers during raid, uses her son as shield".
I mean the divisiveness between people is bad enough without misleading titles that people read, without reading further.
Your proposed title is just as misleading.
It's best that we encourage people to read the information contained, rather than try to bias people with a thread title.
The facts are: a Black Mother was killed in her home, her child was shot, while brandishing a gun at officers. Video taken from inside the home has surfaced of her perspective. (A short, 1 min video) But we don't have any footage from the police perspective.
What I'm more concerned about is that this was all caused by misdemeanor warrant violations.
A tragedy for everyone involved.
It wasn't caused by warrant violations. They came peacefully to arrest her for that. The stand off and her eventual death were caused by her brandishing a weapon and refusing to stand down for six hours.
This isn't some case of a cop pulling and shooting someone during a traffic stop, this was a hostage situation that she escalated and was given six hours to defuse peacefully before they stormed the place. Did she really think they would back down after she had a kid involved?
"Black Mother killed her in her home; child also shot" does absolutely nothing to convey the actual content of the situation and is inflammatory to boot. It could just as easily be the title of a murder case or robbery, not a hostage situation.
It wasn't caused by warrant violations. They came peacefully to arrest her for that. The stand off and her eventual death were caused by her brandishing a weapon and refusing to stand down for six hours.
This isn't some case of a cop pulling and shooting someone during a traffic stop, this was a hostage situation that she escalated and was given six hours to defuse peacefully before they stormed the place. Did she really think they would back down after she had a kid involved?
"Black Mother killed her in her home; child also shot" does absolutely nothing to convey the actual content of the situation and is inflammatory to boot. It could just as easily be the title of a murder case or robbery, not a hostage situation.
I agree, but I believe your proposed title is just as misleading. It's hard to encapsulate all of the necessary context into a short headline unfortunately.
Everyone's an angel when they're dead.I'm finding it hard to believe any of the character descriptions from her family if she used her kid as a bullet shield. Real click baiting title to only include "Mom shot in her own home " when she seemed to have plenty of chances to come out of this.
I'm heavily against armed militant forces as far as police goes, but that's a whole new level of stupidity
"Baltimore woman shot by police after six hour standoff; child also injured"
That's all you need.
I'd be more willing to feel sympathy for her situation if she didn't drag her kid into a police shoot out. Having to pay for traffic fines sucks but it's absolutely never ever worth your life or the life of your kid.
I'd be fine with that. What we should be talking about is the meat of the story, rather than the title of the article/op.
For some people, having to pay traffic fines and appear in court can be completely life altering. We don't know the specifics of this case yet so it's hard to say.
Obviously getting into a hostage situation is not the way to go about this, but I can feel nothing but sadness for the situation was she faced with and the loss of this young woman and the motherless children left behind.
She didn't deserve to die, the cop who ended up shooting her didn't deserve to have their day end like that, none of this needed to happen. We need criminal justice reforms, especially at the lowest levels when it comes to how it interacts with vulnerable groups.
What I'm saying is that, yes, she was asking to get shot when she waved a gun at cops and created a crisis situation.
But instead of simply being satisfied that she is dead, or applauding the cops, or being mad, or whatever... why can't we try to found out HOW this situation escalated and then try to prevent it in the future?
I agree that the system needs reform and I side with the BLM movement however taking a situation like this and trying to elevate it as a situation that can be used to teach Police how to treat civilians is not a good idea. There are more then enough cases where people get shot unarmed, let's not tie their plights with a woman who rather then being arrested for her crimes chose to pull out a gun and have a stand off with them and her child.
This is a fucked up situation, but she was essentially using her son as a shield so I can't really side with her in this case. I hope her child is alright
The system can be so insensitive because various parts of the system only charge $100 or whatever, but that "just $100" can be a big fucking deal. Regardless, ignoring fines or not showing up in court is far more negatively life altering than just dealing with the fines.For some people, having to pay traffic fines and appear in court can be completely life altering.
How should we handle situations where someone refuses to show up for their court proceedings?We need criminal justice reforms, especially at the lowest levels when it comes to how it interacts with vulnerable groups.... But instead of simply being satisfied that she is dead, or applauding the cops, or being mad, or whatever... why can't we try to found out HOW this situation escalated and then try to prevent it in the future?
Community police interaction is about more than just situations like this, it's also about how the police serve warrants, who they choose to target for petty traffic violations, how they work with the community etc. etc.
I think a woman driven to acting completely irrationally and making a absolutely awful decision because of our broken criminal justice system is absolutely a cross worth carrying. This one isn't about the police, necessarily, but more about the system that they work within, who it targets, and how it disproportionately affects people of color and the poor.
Yes but what happens to your argument when they research this person and find that her actions, regardless of what her family claims, weren't so surprising looking at her background. I agree that the police need to work on how they approach people but let's also not pretend that there aren't irrational people out there that when confronted, no matter how nice, may escalate it to unreasonable levels. I wouldn't be surprised if she was that kind of person. There is nothing that should drive you to have a police stand off with a gun and your child for misdemeanors. Cops are there to enforce, they can't be therapists and social workers so expecting them to have restraint and expecting civilians to react with restraint isn't unrealistic.
The system can be so insensitive because various parts of the system only charge $100 or whatever, but that "just $100" can be a big fucking deal. Regardless, ignoring fines or not showing up in court is far more negatively life altering than just dealing with the fines.
How should we handle situations where someone refuses to show up for their court proceedings?
As one of the "let's wait for the facts" crew, I'll say that we should wait for both sides of the story.
Of course the police narrative paints the police in a good light, that's the police narrative's job. The only thing that surprises me about their narrative is that they admit that they shot first. Not sure why we're all "if the cops allegedly shot first" and all, if there was any way they could've so much as implied she shot first, they would've been shouting that from the treetop.
One thing that really concerns me is the deletion of her social media. How is that not considered destruction of evidence?
Also, since this was a known situation (unlike, say, a randomized traffic stop that escalates,) there better be body cam video.
Not saying this particular incident is due to this, but I think some of the volatile interactions are because cops have lost their authority now that we know more about the shit they cover up. If cops want to be treated like the good guys, they have to start acting like the good guys.
Your mistaking being against cops with the people here just against idiots with guns. This time again happens to be the cops. You know why the woman that got killed isn't the idiot in this situation? She didn't shoot first and died because of it. They have gear Incase they get shot to greatly increase there chance to survive. She had a baby and cloths on against multiple people with better weapons to... Ain't no way she was going to shoot at them first so no need to shoot herDoes this make sense? Cause anyone can have a gun..
And if she had a gun it's a good thing your not a cop. Gonna run in and get shot and have no way to defend yourself.
I get it that many here are definitely against cops bit these guys are dealing with people and crime all the time. I know we have issues out there with cops shooting first but there are a ton of cops who have never shot a person much less killed.
I don't believe the cops.
So you all are saying that you believe that a woman wanted for traffic violations and acting rowdy in public is going to go full retard and try to hold off cops with a gun in one hand, and her kid in another? Really?
Fuck that. I need to see the receipts.
Everyone asking why the police did what they did with a child present has not been paying attention to institutionalized racism, black kids aren't children.
I agree, but at the same time, a 23 y/o should know ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.It's hard for a 23 year old mother who likely already distrusts the system to understand these kinds of basic concepts. For her, "just 100" and "just a day off" could have seemed as just as onerous and burdensome as "just a few days in jail". We don't know everything about her situation and possible hardships yet, but it's quite likely that a 23 y/o mother of 2 has financial trouble.
Agreed again. In this case, however, they started where you said (attempt to serve the warrant at home,) and her alleged response escalated the situation in to a stand off. They can't really just leave someone holding a child and a gun alone and hope to catch her when she leaves for work or groceries.There are a few ways to proceed. I would want for the police to attempt an arrest at home and, barring that resolving quickly, attempt an arrest outside of the home away from her children (if she is ever away from them).
Even better, though, would be for it not to escalate to an arrest at all. If we were to make the process of clearing violations more penetrable by ignorant or stubborn people, reduce fines, reduce mistrust in the community, and have open, clear, nonjudgmental communication between offenders and the system.
Again, when I got pulled over for expired registration, the back of the ticket told me that I had to deposit the full fine by mail with a signed note pleading not guilty. When I called the magistrate court however they explained that I only needed $50. You can't mail them cash, but you can give them cash if you show up. You have to show up before a certain time or you won't be seen to give your non-guilty plea... etc. etc.
It's all very archaic, anachronistic, and bureaucratic. To the point where it can seem impenetrable or even hostile, especially to poor people and especially when people of color are disproportionately targeted for these small offenses.
That's what I mean when I say "criminal justice reform". It's time to bring the system into the 21st century, and it's time to stop the targeting of black people.
Also agreed, but you and I both know that's not going to happen in the real world. So let's accept it for what it is, a narrative of the events told from a particular point of view that we can use to compare and evaluate evidence and other narratives.The police narrative's job should be to tell the truth, not make cops look good.
While I doubt the cops were actually there specifically to kill them, one of the depressing things about formasymphonic's list is that it makes Korryn's son's answer not exactly unreasonable.<truth bombs>
While I doubt the cops were actually there specifically to kill them, one of the depressing things about formasymphonic's list is that it makes Korryn's son's answer not exactly unreasonable.
- Gaines suffered from lead poisoning, which is a decades long problem from shitty Baltimore housing (my mom's uncle died from lead poisoning when he was a child).According to records from a lawsuit Gaines filed against several landlords, a doctor said that "Korryn was exposed to a sea of lead when she lived in lead-contaminated houses. She does have a neurodevelopmental disability and brain damage."
- Cop shot first, she shot back, rest of the cops unloaded on her.An officer first the first and Gaines returned fire. In the shootout, she was killed and her son was shot in the arm. Johnson said it is not clear if the child was shot by police or by his mother.
"She, in turn, fired several rounds at us," Johnson said. "No officer was struck. Our personnel returned three rounds of fire, striking her and killing her."
Authorities knew the child was moving around the apartment prior to the shootout and were not aware of his position prior to when the shootout took place, Johnson said.
- Gaines recorded the situation as it unfolded inside of her house. Cops had the videos deleted. People "waiting for all the facts' or "the other side of the story" can rest easy knowing that the cops have deleted Gaines' side of the story and we may never know what ever really happened in there.Some videos on Gaines' Facebook and Instagram social media accounts depicting the standoff situation were deleted Tuesday. Johnson was asked about that during the news conference.
"Let's talk about social media accounts. We did reach out to social media authorities to deactivate her account," Johnson said.
One video that was deleted showed what appeared to be a SWAT officer at the apartment door.
While they were trying to get the child out, "I do remember her telling the kid to bite the officer. (She said), 'Bite him, bite him,'" the witness said.
Johnson said no officers involved in this incident were wearing body cameras.
Johnson said Gaines' followers encouraged her to keep the standoff going and not to surrender to police. He said that to preserve the integrity of the investigation they asked Facebook to take Gaines' account offline and the videos were not deleted.