AlimNassor
Banned
I assume they shot because it was a hostage situation. She had her son held hostage and was armed and unwilling to listen to reason.
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Black Mother Killed in Her Home by Baltimore Police, Child Shot
- Thread starter bman94
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n00bsauce87
Member
So if you point a gun at the police, you have to expect one of the police officers puling the trigger. I would LOVE to see restraint on the police officer's part, but I'd have to say that is a legit reason to be in fear of your life, having a gun pointed towards you.
that being said, shooting at her with a child in the way?
Isn't that the reason why we have negotiators? You are putting the child's life at risk.
If it indeed turns out the cops shot first, I just hope they had a good reason. Because it got the child shot as well.
Nobody wins here.
that being said, shooting at her with a child in the way?
Isn't that the reason why we have negotiators? You are putting the child's life at risk.
If it indeed turns out the cops shot first, I just hope they had a good reason. Because it got the child shot as well.
Nobody wins here.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Can someone explain to me how you can hold a 5 year old in your arms and aim and fire off a shotgun at police officers? After being shot first no less?/
Something isn't adding up.
Something isn't adding up.
Just like Dallas where the local cops made sure to finish the job under 5 hours, I think the local police wants to settle issues like this on their own instead of calling for the FBI or other specialised forces (other than thier own SWAT, which is basically street cops with army guns).
I doubt she was holding a 5 year old in her arms for 4 hours, but she couldhave easily said "the police are here to kill you like I have been warning you about", making the kids cling to her like glue.
You probably wouldn't.
I probably wouldn't.
However this young mother might have felt that she had no other choice. People do crazy, unexpected, and dumb things in an effort to not be separated from their kids.
Jawbreaker
Member
What about a white father and child? I remember this story. It's as close to this situation as I can recall. Unfortunately, the girl died in this case. This one involved overdue rent/eviction.
http://abc27.com/2016/01/12/police-to-id-victims-of-shooting-near-duncannon/
http://abc27.com/2016/04/05/witnesses-ciara-meyer-pleaded-with-father-before-constable-fired/
We even had a thread about it on NeoGAF.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Even still, a shotgun is not a weapon that you can just fire off Willy nilly. Even if it was just a "long gun" whatever that means, kickback alone would suggest it's pretty had to fire without both hands.
I find it hard to believe that after already shooting her, she posed that much of a threat to fire at her indiscriminately, Also hitting the child.
FalsettoVibe
Member
IKR....after reading the OP I was like why?
Squirrel Killer
Member
As one of the "let's wait for the facts" crew, I'll say that we should wait for both sides of the story.
Of course the police narrative paints the police in a good light, that's the police narrative's job. The only thing that surprises me about their narrative is that they admit that they shot first. Not sure why we're all "if the cops allegedly shot first" and all, if there was any way they could've so much as implied she shot first, they would've been shouting that from the treetop.
One thing that really concerns me is the deletion of her social media. How is that not considered destruction of evidence?
Also, since this was a known situation (unlike, say, a random traffic stop that escalates,) there better be body cam video.
Not saying this particular incident is due to this, but I think some of the volatile interactions are because cops have lost their authority now that we know more about the shit they cover up. If cops want to be treated like the good guys, they have to start acting like the good guys.
RandomHopeInc
Member
This thread title is highly misleading, it should read something like "Woman pointing gun at officers during raid, uses her son as shield".
I mean the divisiveness between people is bad enough without misleading titles that people read, without reading further.
I mean the divisiveness between people is bad enough without misleading titles that people read, without reading further.
Your proposed title is just as misleading.
It's best that we encourage people to read the information contained, rather than try to bias people with a thread title.
The facts are: a Black Mother was killed in her home, her child was shot, while she was brandishing a gun at officers. Video taken from inside the home has surfaced of her perspective. (A short, 1 min video) But we don't have any footage from the police perspective.
What I'm more concerned about is that this was all caused by misdemeanor warrant violations.
A tragedy for everyone involved.
Alex Stroud
Banned
Hope the kid pulls through. Being used by your mother as a meat shield, getting shot because of that, and her dying anyways has to be pretty taxing on a youth.
Ordinaryundone
Member
It wasn't caused by warrant violations. They came peacefully to arrest her for that. The stand off and her eventual death were caused by her brandishing a weapon and refusing to stand down for six hours.
This isn't some case of a cop pulling and shooting someone during a traffic stop, this was a hostage situation that she escalated and was given six hours to defuse peacefully before they stormed the place. Did she really think they would back down after she had a kid involved?
"Black Mother killed her in her home; child also shot" does absolutely nothing to convey the actual content of the situation and is inflammatory to boot. It could just as easily be the title of a murder case or robbery, not a hostage situation.
Krappadizzle
Member
Who knows what she was thinking. In her mind she was between a rock and a hard place and given those choices she made a terrible decision that led to her getting killed and her son being shot.
She didn't make that awful decision on a whim, though. They were serving multiple warrants for her arrest, misdemeanor warrants that were likely extremely burdensome or even impossible for her to take care of. Another case of escalation of criminality brought on by our disproportionately targeted justice system.
It happens all the time. It just usually doesn't lead to a woman getting shot.
For example, I've had friends lose their job over having to show up in court to plead not-guilty on a minor traffic violation. That's the kind of burden that leads to people just ignoring charges and having warrants put out.
I agree, but I believe your proposed title is just as misleading. It's hard to encapsulate all of the necessary context into a short headline unfortunately.
I'm finding it hard to believe any of the character descriptions from her family if she used her kid as a bullet shield. Real click baiting title to only include "Mom shot in her own home " when she seemed to have plenty of chances to come out of this.
I'm heavily against armed militant forces as far as police goes, but that's a whole new level of stupidity
I'm heavily against armed militant forces as far as police goes, but that's a whole new level of stupidity
Netherscourge
Banned
Title should be:
Ordinaryundone
Member
"Baltimore woman shot by police after six hour standoff; child also injured"
That's all you need.
I'd be more willing to feel sympathy for her situation if she didn't drag her kid into a police shoot out. Having to pay for traffic fines sucks but it's absolutely never ever worth your life or the life of your kid.
Everyone's an angel when they're dead.
I'd be fine with that. What we should be talking about is the meat of the story, rather than the title of the article/op.
For some people, having to pay traffic fines and appear in court can be completely life altering. We don't know the specifics of this case yet so it's hard to say.
Obviously getting into a hostage situation is not the way to go about this, but I can feel nothing but sadness for the situation was she faced with and the loss of this young woman and the motherless children left behind.
She didn't deserve to die, the cop who ended up shooting her didn't deserve to have their day end like that, none of this needed to happen. We need criminal justice reforms, especially at the lowest levels when it comes to how it interacts with vulnerable groups.
What I'm saying is that, yes, she was asking to get shot when she waved a gun at cops and created a crisis situation.
But instead of simply being satisfied that she is dead, or applauding the cops, or being mad, or whatever... why can't we try to found out HOW this situation escalated and then try to prevent it in the future?
I agree that the system needs reform and I side with the BLM movement however taking a situation like this and trying to elevate it as a situation that can be used to teach Police how to treat civilians is not a good idea. There are more then enough cases where people get shot unarmed, let's not tie their plights with a woman who rather then being arrested for her crimes chose to pull out a gun and have a stand off with them and her child.
Community police interaction is about more than just situations like this, it's also about how the police serve warrants, who they choose to target for petty traffic violations, how they work with the community etc. etc.
I think a woman driven to acting completely irrationally and making a absolutely awful decision because of our broken criminal justice system is absolutely a cross worth carrying. This one isn't about the police, necessarily, but more about the system that they work within, who it targets, and how it disproportionately affects people of color and the poor.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
I mean, sure, that's what the cops said she did. Is there evidence?
Squirrel Killer
Member
The system can be so insensitive because various parts of the system only charge $100 or whatever, but that "just $100" can be a big fucking deal. Regardless, ignoring fines or not showing up in court is far more negatively life altering than just dealing with the fines.
How should we handle situations where someone refuses to show up for their court proceedings?
Yes but what happens to your argument when they research this person and find that her actions, regardless of what her family claims, weren't so surprising looking at her background. I agree that the police need to work on how they approach people but let's also not pretend that there aren't irrational people out there that when confronted, no matter how nice, may escalate it to unreasonable levels. I wouldn't be surprised if she was that kind of person. There is nothing that should drive you to have a police stand off with a gun and your child for misdemeanors. Cops are there to enforce, they can't be therapists and social workers so expecting them to have restraint and expecting civilians to react with restraint isn't unrealistic.
I don't believe the cops.
So you all are saying that you believe that a woman wanted for traffic violations and acting rowdy in public is going to go full retard and try to hold off cops with a gun in one hand, and her kid in another? Really?
Fuck that. I need to see the receipts.
So you all are saying that you believe that a woman wanted for traffic violations and acting rowdy in public is going to go full retard and try to hold off cops with a gun in one hand, and her kid in another? Really?
Fuck that. I need to see the receipts.
The Last Wizard
Member
Everyone asking why the police did what they did with a child present has not been paying attention to institutionalized racism, black kids aren't children.
That's why I'd rather take this as an opportunity to talk about what's clearly wrong with the justice system, rather than the character of this woman or the necessity of shooting her.
I'm not indicting the cops who, from the outside, seemed to try very hard for 6 hours to end this peacefully. Some would say that it would be better to leave and come back at a later hour, or attempt to catch her fleeing her house (as she was obviously going to be a flight risk), but both of those situations would likely have ended in the same kind of stand-off sadly. The cops were forced to make a difficult decision and, going by what I know now, I cannot blame them for it.
There should be a review and a full investigation to find if it was justified and how the child was shot. I look forward to hearing the results of that investigation.
It's hard for a 23 year old mother who likely already distrusts the system to understand these kinds of basic concepts. For her, "just 100" and "just a day off" could have seemed as just as onerous and burdensome as "just a few days in jail". We don't know everything about her situation and possible hardships yet, but it's quite likely that a 23 y/o mother of 2 has financial trouble.
There are a few ways to proceed. I would want for the police to attempt an arrest at home and, barring that resolving quickly, attempt an arrest outside of the home away from her children (if she is ever away from them).
Even better, though, would be for it not to escalate to an arrest at all. If we were to make the process of clearing violations more penetrable by ignorant or stubborn people, reduce fines, reduce mistrust in the community, and have open, clear, nonjudgmental communication between offenders and the system.
Again, when I got pulled over for expired registration, the back of the ticket told me that I had to deposit the full fine by mail with a signed note pleading not guilty. When I called the magistrate court however they explained that I only needed $50. You can't mail them cash, but you can give them cash if you show up. You have to show up before a certain time or you won't be seen to give your non-guilty plea... etc. etc.
It's all very archaic, anachronistic, and bureaucratic. To the point where it can seem impenetrable or even hostile, especially to poor people and especially when people of color are disproportionately targeted for these small offenses.
That's what I mean when I say "criminal justice reform". It's time to bring the system into the 21st century, and it's time to stop the targeting of black people.
formasymphonic
Member
[got posted way before i was finished, sorry. pls delete]
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
The police narrative's job should be to tell the truth, not make cops look good.
formasymphonic
Member
I don't wanna get all coli-militant on you but this is just where I'm at now,
We live in a time where if you can phrase things in the right way, you can walk away even from killing kids like Trayvon Martin and Tamir Rice. So you'll have to forgive me if I'm not willing to accept officer word without any additional video evidence.
They can shoot you in the back 8 times and plant their taser on you to claim you had it, and were a threat to them.
They can tell you to get your ID, then shoot you in front of your girl and 4yr old kid when you comply. With a good chance your girl is only still alive because she had the sense to livestream it all to Facebook.
They can stop you when you're unarmed and have no criminal record — choke you, batter you, and plant drugs on you. They will also lie and say you bit and threatened to kill one of them despite the video never showing that happening.. Then they will laugh, mock & celebrate the re-enactment of your abuse. Only a video and clean drug test later will prove your innocence.
They can pin you down and shoot THEMSELVES and take it out on you and let you bleed out like a dog in the street. Then lie in the the report and say that you managed to break free and reach for their gun as justification for your execution. (PDF link)
They can put 59 bullets into you just for "looking out of place" in an area you grew up in for 28 years. And claim that a licensed probation officer with no criminal record pointed a taser at them as false justification for them shooting him,
They can shoot you in front of a Burger King and get rid of anyone driving by who might have been a witness, then go inside BK and make the last 86 minutes of its CCTV footage disappear. The additional footage they couldn't make disappear, they fight to keep concealed for 13 months but are eventually legally compelled to release.
They can shoot you while you are lying on the ground with arms in the air, and claim that they were trying to defend you from someone YOU were protecting.
They can beat the shit out of of until they sever your spine (and you end up in a coma and die). AND THEN CLAIM YOU DID IT YOURSELF
Walter Scott
Philandro Castile
Floyd Dent
Noel Aguilar
Alex Neito
Laquan McDonald
Charles Kinsey
Freddie Gray
And thats just the ones we know of because there is footage or someone to speak in your defence and break the false narratives. How many others do we know of that never had that chance? How many others are there that we don't know of at all?
None of us know what happened in that room. Korryn Gaines may have legitimately been crazy. She may have legitimately shot at police and legitimately have been shielded by her son. But until I see indisputable footage proving that, I'm not going to accept what I've been told as fact. Its no secret that police react disproportionately whenever minorities are involved, So for now, I am not going to accept the one sided versions of events that paints this is all her fault, nor will i believe this couldn't have been played out any differently by the police if she wasn't black.
Considering all that we've seen in the last few years it shouldn't be possible for anyone to blindly accept officer narratives as gospel in 2016. Don't even get me started on her social media posts mysteriously going missing — if that doesn't set off your bullshit detectors on the police story then I don't know what else I can say to any of you.
We live in a time where if you can phrase things in the right way, you can walk away even from killing kids like Trayvon Martin and Tamir Rice. So you'll have to forgive me if I'm not willing to accept officer word without any additional video evidence.
They can shoot you in the back 8 times and plant their taser on you to claim you had it, and were a threat to them.
They can tell you to get your ID, then shoot you in front of your girl and 4yr old kid when you comply. With a good chance your girl is only still alive because she had the sense to livestream it all to Facebook.
They can stop you when you're unarmed and have no criminal record — choke you, batter you, and plant drugs on you. They will also lie and say you bit and threatened to kill one of them despite the video never showing that happening.. Then they will laugh, mock & celebrate the re-enactment of your abuse. Only a video and clean drug test later will prove your innocence.
They can pin you down and shoot THEMSELVES and take it out on you and let you bleed out like a dog in the street. Then lie in the the report and say that you managed to break free and reach for their gun as justification for your execution. (PDF link)
They can put 59 bullets into you just for "looking out of place" in an area you grew up in for 28 years. And claim that a licensed probation officer with no criminal record pointed a taser at them as false justification for them shooting him,
They can shoot you in front of a Burger King and get rid of anyone driving by who might have been a witness, then go inside BK and make the last 86 minutes of its CCTV footage disappear. The additional footage they couldn't make disappear, they fight to keep concealed for 13 months but are eventually legally compelled to release.
They can shoot you while you are lying on the ground with arms in the air, and claim that they were trying to defend you from someone YOU were protecting.
They can beat the shit out of of until they sever your spine (and you end up in a coma and die). AND THEN CLAIM YOU DID IT YOURSELF
and get acquitted too.
Walter Scott
Philandro Castile
Floyd Dent
Noel Aguilar
Alex Neito
Laquan McDonald
Charles Kinsey
Freddie Gray
And thats just the ones we know of because there is footage or someone to speak in your defence and break the false narratives. How many others do we know of that never had that chance? How many others are there that we don't know of at all?
None of us know what happened in that room. Korryn Gaines may have legitimately been crazy. She may have legitimately shot at police and legitimately have been shielded by her son. But until I see indisputable footage proving that, I'm not going to accept what I've been told as fact. Its no secret that police react disproportionately whenever minorities are involved, So for now, I am not going to accept the one sided versions of events that paints this is all her fault, nor will i believe this couldn't have been played out any differently by the police if she wasn't black.
Considering all that we've seen in the last few years it shouldn't be possible for anyone to blindly accept officer narratives as gospel in 2016. Don't even get me started on her social media posts mysteriously going missing — if that doesn't set off your bullshit detectors on the police story then I don't know what else I can say to any of you.
Prototype Viktor
Member
Your mistaking being against cops with the people here just against idiots with guns. This time again happens to be the cops. You know why the woman that got killed isn't the idiot in this situation? She didn't shoot first and died because of it. They have gear Incase they get shot to greatly increase there chance to survive. She had a baby and cloths on against multiple people with better weapons to... Ain't no way she was going to shoot at them first so no need to shoot her
That's fine, but there's also no reason to think that the cops were there as a death squad to execute her. She was clearly in a standoff with them (which is almost impossible without being armed) and the FB videos that she took show that she had no interest in surrendering peacefully. That's a recipe for disaster because the police are never just going to say "okay" and turn around and leave.
It will be interesting to see how the final moments actually played out, but the fact that the police aren't saying she shot first says something. We've seen enough hostage negotiations (and similar situations) to know that eventually they will just cut their losses and kill you.
There have been plenty of white people gunned down when they decided to get stupid and try to use their child as a shield in an armed standoff.
The woman's own videos show the police trying to talk her down and she is more interested in having her kid spout conditioned responses etc. If they were there to kill her they would not have waited 6 hours
Squirrel Killer
Member
I agree, but at the same time, a 23 y/o should know ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Agreed again. In this case, however, they started where you said (attempt to serve the warrant at home,) and her alleged response escalated the situation in to a stand off. They can't really just leave someone holding a child and a gun alone and hope to catch her when she leaves for work or groceries.
Also agreed, but you and I both know that's not going to happen in the real world. So let's accept it for what it is, a narrative of the events told from a particular point of view that we can use to compare and evaluate evidence and other narratives.
While I doubt the cops were actually there specifically to kill them, one of the depressing things about formasymphonic's list is that it makes Korryn's son's answer not exactly unreasonable.
formasymphonic
Member
Well, I don't want to say they went there with the sole intention of killing her. My point is more that what happens when the police actually get there and the stories they feed us about the events aren't something I'm willing to hear without additional evidence.
For whatever reasons, America has a cultural and institutionalised image of minorities (particularly blacks) as something simultaneously superhuman in threat, and subhuman in value leading to a lot of the outcomes we see.
The police will commonly respond with disproportionate force than they would if the people they are dealing with were white. And when you are dead, the only version of events left is the one oriented to give justify the ones that killed you. Media institutions with biases will also happily support those narratives through coded language, a choice of unflattering imagery and digging through your past to find some unpaid parking ticket or other sin to make you appear more undesirable and justify your removal from society,
Only video revealing all events will show whether your killing was unlawful or justified and its why a rollout of body cameras is so important going forward.
Claude Augario
Member
Local news is on the story, and more details are coming out.
Some interesting news that came about:
- Gaines legally owned her gun.
- Cops don't know who shot the child or where he was when the shooting started, so people saying that Gaines was holding her son as a "meat shield" for six hours either need to source their information or stop making shit up; he was freely moving about the apartment and they knew that.
Some interesting news that came about:
- Gaines suffered from lead poisoning, which is a decades long problem from shitty Baltimore housing (my mom's uncle died from lead poisoning when he was a child).
- Cop shot first, she shot back, rest of the cops unloaded on her.
- Gaines legally owned her gun.
- Cops don't know who shot the child or where he was when the shooting started, so people saying that Gaines was holding her son as a "meat shield" for six hours either need to source their information or stop making shit up; he was freely moving about the apartment and they knew that.
- Gaines recorded the situation as it unfolded inside of her house. Cops had the videos deleted. People "waiting for all the facts' or "the other side of the story" can rest easy knowing that the cops have deleted Gaines' side of the story and we may never know what ever really happened in there.
LowlySmokeGuy
Banned
So she wasn't using the child as a shield and cops started a shootout knowing there was a kid in the house, but not knowing where he was exactly. Sounds like another fuck up by the cops. What else is new.
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