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[Easy_D]

If you look at some of Geno's leak months ago he he/she talked about a hybrid! hate to say it but this could of had more truth than what we gave credit !

Hybrid speculation has been going on since Nintendo released the first minor details on the NX though.

 

[maxcriden]

Can anyone find a link to the article that mentions Wii U VC being folded into future systems?

I remember Iwata or someone saying something about that but I can't find the article.

Not sure if you saw, but I mentioned it as well in my post on the previous page:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213360927&postcount=4540

I haven't been able to find it ever and I'm beginning to think somehow I'm confusing it with another quote. But, as another poster has said:

3DS ports of titles like Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors with quick turnaround times from their WiiU parents, and the port of Xenoblade and release of SNES titles for 3DS would all appear to suggest that Nintendo have an existing PPC -> ARM working development chain

Yeah, I would suspect that if the NX is an ARM based console as suggested, Nintendo already have working engines that at least some of their WiiU titles were built on that can export to ARM, and already have working ARM based emulators for everything up to SNES at least in terms of VC

So, it seems the Wii U VC architecture may not be too bad to fold in to future systems, based on the above?

 

[Dark Cloud]

So I looked up Genos NX rumor and this is what he had back in February. Does any of the stuff he say make sense with the recent rumors lately?

It has a wireless HDMI dongle that attaches flush to the back of the device. A user can pull it out and insert it into any display with a normal sized HDMI output and the devices uses an evolved version of the Wii U’s streaming tech to display in HD to the TV screen.

-Allegedly the analog controls for movement has small motors in them for full haptic feedback. Meaning if you control a character and hit a wall, the sticks move away from the direction of that wall to simulate running head first into it. This can also be used for jerking when firing a gun, taking damage, moving over rough terrain, ect.

-It can literally Bluetooth synch with everything, especially smart phone and tablets to the point where one feature is that it can answer phone calls and display text messages from your phone onto the screens itself so you don’t have to stop and answer your smart device.

-The closest in terms of “power” it gets to is the Xbox One, but an app idea is Wii U x50 and Playstation Vita x100. The key is that all the tech is exactly the same hardware layout as the PS4 and Xbox One which then combine it with the OS’s strong emulation functions and compiler means that any game that can run of a Playstation 4 or Xbox One can easily run on the NX with near-zero modification to the original source code, especially if it runs in Android OS or Unreal Engine 4. This is allegedly why Nintendo has given out the dev kits so late, as one 3rd Party dev put it “It’s the easiest device we’ve ever developed for. You just take your code, compile it and it works.”

-Look to Pokemon GO to get the idea of the type of social features that will be in NX that will take multiplayer, AR and the StreetPass concept to a whole new level.
The real strengths of the device is its usability and ease of use. Developers have described to me more than once that it visually and functionally looks as if “Samsung and the Nintendo 2DS” had a baby, in that it looks friendly but unlike what most people visualize a Nintendo device to typically look. The operating system, named NintendOS alone is very powerful and has so many modern features of mobile operating systems today that Nintendo is trying to be very careful in showing it off for fear that it would be mistaken as running Android. It also has a very strong networking functions as it ties into multiple devices and services allowing a very competent and pervasive eco-system designed to constantly involve the consumer’s lives.

 

[maxcriden]

So I looked up Genos NX rumor and this is what he had back in February. Does any of the stuff he say make sense with the recent rumors lately?

In order, in my opinion:

-No to dongle.
-Maybe to haptic,
-Definitely not to Bluetooth phone calls.
-Maybe to power.
-Maybe to Go-style features.

Edit: I miscounted and accidentally wrote no to power, which I think is a maybe rather than a definite no. Edited for clarity.

 

[LordOfChaos]

So I looked up Genos NX rumor and this is what he had back in February. Does any of the stuff he say make sense with the recent rumors lately?

I think this

-The closest in terms of “power” it gets to is the Xbox One, but an app idea is Wii U x50 and Playstation Vita x100. The key is that all the tech is exactly the same hardware layout as the PS4 and Xbox One which then combine it with the OS’s strong emulation functions and compiler means that any game that can run of a Playstation 4 or Xbox One can easily run on the NX with near-zero modification to the original source code, especially if it runs in Android OS or Unreal Engine 4. This is allegedly why Nintendo has given out the dev kits so late, as one 3rd Party dev put it “It’s the easiest device we’ve ever developed for. You just take your code, compile it and it works.”

Easily marks this as the work of a bullshit artist.

Code written for GNM can't just be emulated by the NX's OS with "near zero" modification. It's not even an open system and Nintendo most certainly does not have access. Low level optimization around GCN vs Pascal already rule that out. Or Jaguar vs A53/72/whatever. Denver was cited for possibly emulating older consoles, but it definitely wouldn't be performant enough to emulate an XBO/PS4.


They have no more access to DX11.X or 12 than they do to GNM either.

Close to an XBO, 50x the Wii U? Even the XBO, heck even the PS4, is nowhere near 50X the Wii U.

 

[Rodin]

I think this



Easily marks this as the work of a bullshit artist.

Code written for GNM can't just be emulated by the NX's OS with "near zero" modification.

"Wii U 50x and Vita 100x" is also a masterpiece

For those who don't know, 100x Vita would be 2.8tflops and 50x Wii U would be 8.8tflops, which is basically a Fury X. Yes he also implied that Wii U is only 2x stronger than vita and ~50x less powerful than Xbone lmao

 

[ggx2ac]

I think this



Easily marks this as the work of a bullshit artist.

Code written for GNM can't just be emulated by the NX's OS with "near zero" modification.

Also, he made it sound like the Vita is half the power of a Wii U. Really? lol

 

[MuchoMalo]

I think this



Easily marks this as the work of a bullshit artist.

Code written for GNM can't just be emulated by the NX's OS with "near zero" modification. Low level optimization around GCN vs Pascal already rule that out. Or Jaguar vs A53/72/whatever.

Close to an XBO, 50x the Wii U? Even the XBO, heck even the PS4, is nowhere near 50X the Wii U.

NX on-par with Scor- wait, that doesn't work either. Damn.

Also, he made it sound like the Vita is half the power of a Wii U. Really? lol

That's more or less correct, at least on-paper.

 

[Rodin]

NX on-par with Scor- wait, that doesn't work either. Damn.



That's more or less correct, at least on-paper.

28gflops vs 176 is 2x?

 

[LordOfChaos]

NX on-par with Scor- wait, that doesn't work either. Damn.

A GTX 1080 gets us about there. Power8+1080 NX confirmed

 

[MuchoMalo]

28gflops vs 176 is 2x?

Maybe I had the wrong figure for Vita.

 

[KingBroly]

Wireless HDMI dongle also seems like bullshit to me

 

[blu]

The question was specifically asking about other than infotainment in automotive so that's why he talked about other points in the automotive industry.

Right. I skimmed over the question and missed the infotainment part.

And yeah he's not going to out a product that's unannounced especially with Nintendo being quite secretive about such things. It could basically ruin the whole partnership.

Of course.

 

[calc84maniac]

So, it seems the Wii U VC architecture may not be too bad to fold in to future systems, based on the above?

Perhaps, but I feel like a large part of the problem is licensing more than anything. I wonder if Nintendo thought to make future-proof licenses this time around.

And maybe they can reuse the digital manuals?

 

[the androgyne]

Also, he made it sound like the Vita is half the power of a Wii U. Really? lol

There's times when Nintendo's crappy OS makes me wonder tbh! Try loading the settings screen on both and see which one gets there first. Then go 5 screens deep and the Home button won't work. When you B-back out of it, hope you don't need to go back in there again! Pressing Home from the eShop works albeit killing the eShop in the process. Meanwhile Vita has all those things and your game still running seamlessly. I hope they take NOTHING for NX from the Wii U in this regard!

 

[ethomaz]

But if Nvidia is really involved somehow in the Nintendo NX will they annouce this at the Nvidia Tegra Presentation? And if they doesen't announce something, are the Eurogamer roumors false?

They won't says Nintendo NX will use the next-Tegra... that only will be reveled at Nintendo NX reveal in September.

But we will finally know what the next-Tegra is capable and possible specs (Hot Chips is about specs) for Nintendo NX... no more speculation on what next-Tegra will be.

BTW NX rumors are possible true... they are using next-Tegra.

 

[Eradicate]

Anyone know where is Geno from? What's his first language?

I'm just curious because I found the Dual Pixels source for that information...but that seems to be the only one saying anything about 50x, 100x, etc. in it. Foreign sites reporting on the Geno rumor never mention Dual Pixels as the source, but their speculation on things seems more "grounded." Like (Google translated, of course!):

1, NX hosts will have a wireless HDMI adapter, the adapter inserted in the back of the system. Players can pull it out any insert a standard size HDMI video output device, and then you can output HD wireless video screen.

2, the host controller will contain a small motor, the game will complete tactile feedback. For example, players control characters hit a wall, or the like players shot in the game you'll get a feedback controller.
Nintendo console Nintendo console history course

3, NX host can synchronize anything, players can let the host and synchronize your phone or tablet via Bluetooth, and receive calls through the host, or send text messages. So that players in the use of NX when the host does not have to stop to use other smart devices.

4, the power supply needs NX hosts nearly Xbox One. (Is it also has an external power adapter? Oh no!) Host hardware NX close PS4 and Xbox One, in the future NX host through coding may be running PS4, Xbox One or Android operating systems. (This is really lame!) [I love this commentary!]

5, "Pokemon: GO" will be integrated into the social characteristics of the host NX, multiplayer online.

6, the host advantage of NX is its functionality and ease of use. Developers outwardly media described, NX Samsung and more like a Nintendo 2DS combination product. Its equipped with Nintendo OS operating system is very powerful and has many of the features of mobile operating system, the network function of this system is quite powerful.

I just wonder if some of that was extrapolated onto Geno's information. I don't keep up with these things too much, but I just remember this rumor coming off differently looking around back then!

And yes, they could simply be missing that part and/or not mention Dual Pixels, but they do mention Geno. So, is anyone aware of this and whether he/she is a foreign rumor spreader? Is this Geno to Dual Pixels to Internet, Geno to foreign sites to Dual Pixels, stuff getting lost in translation, or what?

(Not that I believe the rumors and such, but he allegedly had a track record, so I'm just curious! He's the only older rumor person I can recall!)

 

[PepperJohn]

Anyone know where is Geno from? What's his first language?

I'm just curious because I found the Dual Pixels source for that information...but that seems to be the only one saying anything about 50x, 100x, etc. in it. Foreign sites reporting on the Geno rumor never mention Dual Pixels as the source, but their speculation on things seems more "grounded." Like (Google translated, of course!):



I just wonder if some of that was extrapolated onto Geno's information. I don't keep up with these things too much, but I just remember this rumor coming off differently looking around back then!

And yes, they could simply be missing that part and/or not mention Dual Pixels, but they do mention Geno. So, is anyone aware of this and whether he/she is a foreign rumor spreader? Is this Geno to Dual Pixels to Internet, Geno to foreign sites to Dual Pixels, stuff getting lost in translation, or what?

(Not that I believe the rumors and such, but he allegedly had a track record, so I'm just curious! He's the only older rumor person I can recall!)

You know all that stuff was stolen from a fake 4chan rumor from last december right?

 

[ggx2ac]

Guys, I got bored I got really bored so I saw Trev retweet the following where they claim a third article for AMD being on NX.

https://twitter.com/SMetaldave64/status/764090585384833025

So I clicked the link and its from seeking alpha: https://t.co/xMTDXqlC2M

In the article it claimed this: (Not my image)
Courtesy of: https://twitter.com/CEOofGreatness/status/764067882456129540

So I looked at the link highlighting "orders from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo."

The source of the article only "believes" that the semi-custom design wins are for the NX.

No confirmation of anything, I have already notified trev, playeressence and ceoofgreatness of my disappointment because they are wasting my patience that they can't even take the time to give a strong argument.

 

[PdotMichael]

After weeks I'm still not sure how we went from the original leak that the hardware isn't that powerful because of the handheld nature to secret sauce(tm) docking stuff.

 

[KojiKnight]

After weeks I'm still not sure how we went from the original leak that the hardware isn't that powerful because of the handheld nature to secret sauce(tm) docking stuff.

Because we were far enough back and only had the reasonable people and the surviving cynics from the WUST thread... The longer the thread goes on, the more we pick up on people with no real knowledge who want this to be greater than it is... They'll build up an ungodly hype, drag in some passerbies, who'll all be disappointed. Not that Nintendo isn't partially to blame because they have to know this happens every time and they could cut it off at the knees without spoiling the hardware gimmicks with just a couple small sentences.

 

[ggx2ac]

After weeks I'm still not sure how we went from the original leak that the hardware isn't that powerful because of the handheld nature to secret sauce(tm) docking stuff.

Courtesy of Eradicate:

__________

No, some people speculate the dock does something, others don't. You can relax for now because nothing has been confirmed about secret sauce. Until reveal I guess.

 

[calc84maniac]

The dock could be moor than we expected. But we might not know much about its ports before it ships and is up for sail.

 

[maxcriden]

Perhaps, but I feel like a large part of the problem is licensing more than anything. I wonder if Nintendo thought to make future-proof licenses this time around.

And maybe they can reuse the digital manuals?

Oh, I should have clarified, sorry--I'm only referring to first party games. Hopefully they have an easy way to assist third parties who wish to bring their games forward from Wii U/3DS VC to NX VC.

But yeah, regarding licensing for first party games, hopefully those contracts have been future-proofed.

I definitely think the digital manuals should be reusable.

 

[MuchoMalo]

No confirmation of anything, I have already notified trev, playeressence and ceoofgreatness of my disappointment because they are wasting my patience that they can't even take the time to give a strong argument.

They don't care. They're just so desperate that they jump on anything that agrees with their beliefs as definitive proof. They won't even reply to people who disagree with them anymore.

What makes me really sad is that I've seen people who practically worship them and take everything they say as absolute fact.

 

[KojiKnight]

No, some people speculate the dock does something, others don't. You can relax for now because nothing has been confirmed about secret sauce. Until reveal I guess.

This is definitely the key word... All of the big-name sites who've revealed information have only said that the dock exists, and that the dock is an HDMI passthrough. That's all we have so far, and it seems to me that if the dock did anything significant, that that would be one of the things they would have touted along with cartridge based and nvidia chip.

 

[10k]

There was an old yahoo article claiming AMD secured the NX back in the winter.

It was written like it was a fact. Probably was the writers speculation though.

 

[Davey Cakes]

So, are we assuming that NX Handheld = Nvidia and NX Console = AMD?

Or, are we removing Nvidia from the equation entirely?

 

[KojiKnight]

So, are we assuming that NX Handheld = Nvidia and NX Console = AMD?

Or, are we removing Nvidia from the equation entirely?

Other way around.

 

[Zalman]

There won't be two different architectures and all signs point to Nvidia. Not sure why people keep bringing up AMD.

 

[KAL2006]

This is definitely the key word... All of the big-name sites who've revealed information have only said that the dock exists, and that the dock is an HDMI passthrough. That's all we have so far, and it seems to me that if the dock did anything significant, that that would be one of the things they would have touted along with cartridge based and nvidia chip.

Let them dream

 

[TLZ]

Handheld is 100x vita and console is 50x Wii u.

 

[ggx2ac]

They don't care. They're just so desperate that they jump on anything that agrees with their beliefs as definitive proof. They won't even reply to people who disagree with them anymore.

Following link is the pointing out my disappointment in them.

https://twitter.com/ggx2ac/status/764098813661327361

You can see how one person immediately failed to rebuke my postings.

@ggx2ac @PlayerEssence @SMetaldave64
That doesn't link doesn't work for me now. Only what I posted shows

@CEOofGreatness @PlayerEssence @SMetaldave64
you click the link highlighting "orders from Sony... " https://t.co/jvMBcXZDoV

@ggx2ac @PlayerEssence @SMetaldave64
2 different articles.....

@CEOofGreatness @PlayerEssence @SMetaldave64
Do you understand how sourcing works?

____________

This is definitely the key word... All of the big-name sites who've revealed information have only said that the dock exists, and that the dock is an HDMI passthrough. That's all we have so far, and it seems to me that if the dock did anything significant, that that would be one of the things they would have touted along with cartridge based and nvidia chip.

Yes, that's why I went with the idea around page 60 something that the dock probably does nothing and the portable form just streams to the TV without any change.

Of course I can be wrong, if it somehow does become more powerful streaming to TV than hey, that's better than nothing I guess.

 

[LordOfChaos]

There won't be two different architectures and all signs point to Nvidia. Not sure why people keep bringing up AMD.

I think AMDs two x86 wins and one ARM win keeps throwing people. But they specifically said the ARM win goes beyond gaming. I'm thinking a compute product.

 

[Father_Brain]

They don't care. They're just so desperate that they jump on anything that agrees with their beliefs as definitive proof. They won't even reply to people who disagree with them anymore.

What makes me really sad is that I've seen people who practically worship them and take everything they say as absolute fact.

One of the funnier/sadder things about these people is that they're so desperate to believe in a powerful stationary NX console because they assume that every third-party title would logically follow, even though there's no indication that Nintendo has done anything to fix its vast deficiencies in relevant first-party IP, first-party Western development, or AAA third-party relations.

 

[Zoon]

Handheld mode being 10x Vita and docked mode being 5x Wii U would make sense. Maybe someone added a 0 by mistake.

Spoiler

or not?

 

[Dark Cloud]

They don't care. They're just so desperate that they jump on anything that agrees with their beliefs as definitive proof. They won't even reply to people who disagree with them anymore.

What makes me really sad is that I've seen people who practically worship them and take everything they say as absolute fact.

It's funny watching PlayerEssence. He'll make a video about a rumor about NX using NVidia and he'll say "remember this is a rumor and they're unproven". Then he'll make a video about any little thing that may seem like AMD is involved and he'll say "well guys here's even more proof AMD is involved and there are multiple systems". It's so hilarious how he'll talk about each different and give the AMD "rumors" more credit over the NVidia rumors.

 

[Skittzo0413]

This is definitely the key word... All of the big-name sites who've revealed information have only said that the dock exists, and that the dock is an HDMI passthrough. That's all we have so far, and it seems to me that if the dock did anything significant, that that would be one of the things they would have touted along with cartridge based and nvidia chip.

What originally had me convinced that the dock was something more was that the Eurogamer article mentioned the devkits were using stock TX1s, which consume something like 10-12W which simply isn't feasible for a handheld on a battery. If a Pascal chip can match that performance (as speculated by DF) but keep it under 2W, then that resolves that issue, but as of now we don't know if that's the case.

On the other hand, if the dock allows the SoC to upclock (not overclock) from the handheld mode, then it can reach that performance easily when on a power supply. The dock would have no secret sauce beyond a power supply and an HDMI out, and allow the handheld to do what every single laptop in existence does.

However, like you said, no one with sources has mentioned anything about "docked" power levels or processor speeds so this is all speculation, though it's not completely baseless. If a Pascal chip can indeed get 512GFlops consuming under 2W then I'd start to very much doubt the dock theory but get very excited about this beast of a handheld we're getting from Nintendo.

 

[deriks]

Wireless HDMI dongle also seems like bullshit to me

Maybe a Chromecast thing thay you can use for remote play?

 

[Rodin]

Handheld mode being 10x Vita and docked mode being 5x Wii U would make sense. Maybe someone added a 0 by mistake.

Spoiler

or not?

This makes much more sense and it's in the realm of what i'd consider possible, but i doubt it's what he meant. His "leak" is just bullshit.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Handheld mode being 10x Vita and docked mode being 5x Wii U would make sense. Maybe someone added a 0 by mistake.

Spoiler

or not?

The whole thing is abject nonsense. No need to try to make it make sense. Like, good like getting a PS4 GNM API game running on a Pascal Tegra NX with "nearly zero" modificatoin.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

There won't be two different architectures and all signs point to Nvidia. Not sure why people keep bringing up AMD.

Did you see my post earlier with the transcript from Lisa Su?

If the third of those three wins is a non-console win why wouldn't she make that clear given the amount of questioning it has raised?

 

[ggx2ac]

There was an old yahoo article claiming AMD secured the NX back in the winter.

It was written like it was a fact. Probably was the writers speculation though.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=213357210

Here you go 10k this was what I was debunking earlier in the day, Trev's second article. If you know him well, could you please talk some sense into him?

 

[MuchoMalo]

This is definitely the key word... All of the big-name sites who've revealed information have only said that the dock exists, and that the dock is an HDMI passthrough. That's all we have so far, and it seems to me that if the dock did anything significant, that that would be one of the things they would have touted along with cartridge based and nvidia chip.

To be fair, "HDMI passthrough" hasn't been a phrase used by any source, and I highly doubt that's all that it is; however, rather than adding power to the handheld, I believe that it charges the unit and adds USB ports. It would be weird if it didn't at least charge it.

 

[10k]

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=213357210

Here you go 10k this was what I was debunking earlier in the day, Trev's second article. If you know him well, could you please talk some sense into him?

There's nothing I could say to change his stance, really. He must have reasons for being so adamant on an amd x86 home console.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Did you see my post earlier with the transcript from Lisa Su?

If the third of those three wins is a non-console win why wouldn't she make that clear given the amount of questioning it has raised?

Well, the people on the AMD crazy train are convinced it is an x86 SoC while that third win is an ARM "beyond gaming" win and they are ignoring the fact that those two pieces of information greatly contradict each other.

 

[Eradicate]

Looking into Samsung more, and again, just guess work. But, in their business reports, they mention they have a contract with Global Foundries to expand the customer base of 14nm processes. They mention an anticipation for a slowdown in smartphones and tablets, but expect supplies to still remain the same with the creation of new markets, such as IoT, wearables, and health.

Still can't find anything concrete regarding any Samsung/Nintendo workings at the moment, aside from what I posted earlier!

Courtesy of Eradicate:

LOL!!! Glad that GIF is getting some mileage!

You know all that stuff was stolen from a fake 4chan rumor from last december right?

I did NOT know that, so that helps clarify it!

Guys, I got bored I got really bored so I saw Trev retweet the following where they claim a third article for NX being on AMD.

https://twitter.com/SMetaldave64/status/764090585384833025

So I clicked the link and its from seeking alpha: https://t.co/xMTDXqlC2M

In the article it claimed this:


So I looked at the link highlighting "orders from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo."



The source of the article only "believes" that the semi-custom design wins are for the NX.

No confirmation of anything, I have already notified trev, playeressence and the third guy that posted of my disappointment because they are wasting my patience that they can't even take the time to give a strong argument.

Good work, and you're right!

Also, for everyone, there is VR hardware coming out with embedded AMD GPU and such in it and it's gotten recognition at their own conferences and things. I'll see if I can dig it up, but it's definitely a "beyond gaming" win. But, it could be a number of things too regardless!

 

[joesiv]

Not sure if posted yet but apparently Nvidia cancelled the next iteratation of the Shield, for "business reasons":
http://hexus.net/mobile/news/tablets/95659-nvidia-shield-tablet-refresh-apparently-cancelled/

edit* nevermind already discussed

I could see that being good or bad for the notion of Nintendo using a next gen tegra:
1) Nvidia doesn't need the model to showcase the tegra mobile technology since they now have a deal with Nintendo
2) Tegra for mobile applications is dead, the conference call last night gaming with tegra was never mentioned, only automotive and robotics were cited as uses for tegra.

 

[The End]

Not sure if posted yet but apparently Nvidia cancelled the next iteratation of the Shield, for "business reasons":
http://hexus.net/mobile/news/tablets/95659-nvidia-shield-tablet-refresh-apparently-cancelled/

I could see that being good or bad for the notion of Nintendo using a next gen tegra:
1) Nvidia doesn't need the model to showcase the tegra mobile technology since they now have a deal with Nintendo
2) Tegra for mobile applications is dead, the conference call last night gaming with tegra was never mentioned, only automotive and robotics were cited as uses for tegra.

0) Nintendo has bought up an entire foundry run of Tegra chips, Nvidia wouldn't have SoCs until well into next year.

 

[Dystify]

Not sure if posted yet but apparently Nvidia cancelled the next iteratation of the Shield, for "business reasons":
http://hexus.net/mobile/news/tablets/95659-nvidia-shield-tablet-refresh-apparently-cancelled/

I could see that being good or bad for the notion of Nintendo using a next gen tegra:
1) Nvidia doesn't need the model to showcase the tegra mobile technology since they now have a deal with Nintendo
2) Tegra for mobile applications is dead, the conference call last night gaming with tegra was never mentioned, only automotive and robotics were cited as uses for tegra.

Well that conference call was mainly for the last and next fiscal quarter. It's not strange to not talk about Tegra there if (gaming) products using it won't be relevant until later.