Support NeoGAF

[KingSnake]

Cant see the difference between handheld and docked on a 160 inch screen 🤔

This doesn't make any sense.

 

[thumb]

Or maybe.

Stop worrying about resolutions.

Play games to play them.

You're in Digital Foundry thread that exists to discuss things like resolutions. This is a weird place to offer that comment.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Or maybe.

Stop worrying about resolutions.

Play games to play them.

Or maybe...this is a forum specifically made to talk about games so people should be able to discuss issues they have without being patronized.

Especially in a thread dedicated to a video that only discusses these things. Come on...

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

PC version it is! Those resolutions are a joke.

 

[terrier]

Or maybe.

Stop worrying about resolutions.

Play games to play them.

We buy new systems to get better visuals, IQ and performance. So while we can also enjoy games that do not have the desired technical level, it is important to point it out because it may end with devs priorizing launching unfinished/unpolished games ,something that has happened many times, over quality. In fact many people some times wait until games get patches and are ploished enough to play it.

 

[Piichan]

Ahh man, kind of torn between PS4 Pro and Switch. Do I go for 60fps or a portable mode... Starting to lean towards the Switch version.

 

[orioto]

I downloaded this on Switch last night and I'm really surprised to see anybody defending this. It looks straight up bad in portable mode, it's a huge disappointment. I've not had chance to try it out docked yet, is it any better?

What ? you must be drunk, GAF insisted heavily on telling me you can't see any IQ difference on the Switch screen cause it's so small!

 

[ktroopa]

great game, can be easy can be hard. but fuck me the camera is shite :/

 

[Easy_D]

What ? you must be drunk, GAF insisted heavily on telling me you can't see any IQ difference on the Switch screen cause it's so small!

Opinions. You know when people say "I can't see" what they really mean is "I don't think it looks bad". Pls

 

[tkscz]

Sad that peoples are just seeing X resolution and then extrapolate a shitload of things out of it. Temporal AA is a huge improvement in overall visuals over just numbers, as DF mentionned.

I just thought the resolutions felt like such random numbers. The game's shader and post-processing effects are what should be getting more attention.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Ahh man, kind of torn between PS4 Pro and Switch. Do I go for 60fps or a portable mode... Starting to lean towards the Switch version.

60 FPS and slightly better image quality would be nice, but for me it's been a perfect handheld game. Other than the annoying glitch with needing an internet connection once you've booted the game while connected.
If it was really short I'd have probably gone for PC, but it feels like there's enough there that I'll want to play most of it on the go or while watching something in the background.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Game looks very good to me on the Switch screen.

 

[orioto]

Opinions. You know when people say "I can't see" what they really mean is "I don't think it looks bad". Pls

No they clearly and repetitively meant "don't judge on a computer screen youtube vid cause you won't see those details on the switch screen"

I love how people are acting like it's not a big deal and rez are just numbers. The game's resolution is the equivalent of a PS4 game that would be rendered at 702p, compared to it's normal resolution. How would people react to that.

You're all falling in a trap that makes you think portable means it's ok, we get what we can and do not complain cause it's portable. It's a dangerous state of mind for the Switch, that's all i'm saying.

At least i hope game done only for Switch will be optimized for it or have less discernible dynamic rez like Zelda or the Fast RMX.

 

[Maintenance]

Either a game is good or it isn't. I mean I know it cool to get caught up in what is the resolution and framerate. Outside of that the questions are... is the game playable, good concept, enjoyable, challenging, or fun? If it has those other things then wtf are we talking about. No one wants to play a broken game but I that doesn't seem to be the case. Man I must be too old I just remember when people enjoyed good games.

People still enjoy good games... but this is a thread about performance and graphics.

It's a Digital Foundry thread.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

I thought the whole point of their resolution and AA choices was that, in a foliage heavy game with little sharp details and soft texture work the pure definition of the image is a flawed metric, and the developers were clearly going for a CG, Pixar look.
Pixar used to render films at resolutions lower than 1080p, usually a bit below 900p just like the PS4 version. 35mm film does not resolve 1080p when projected (Usually between 720p and 900p once all is said and done, accounting for processing and optics) and neither does 2K digital projection. Fine art prints probably don't either, not that I really care when I print shit.

The point with this is, fine detail is just a metric of IQ in rendering, and this game looks super clean and fooled people into thinking it's 1080p. Post processing of images is here to stay, and we are going to see methods like this more and more going forward. I'd rather have precious GPU milliseconds devoted to great TAA that delivers a clean image than to more, extremely aliased pixels.

In other news, this bodes extremely well for multiplatform games on Switch.

 

[terrier]

People still enjoy good games... but this is a thread about performance and graphics.

It's a Digital Foundry thread.

exactly. And even if it wasn't people can complain if the game is not up to some standards.
For me this is a clearly rushed game to meet Switch launch window, they have done a nice job to hide low resolution, but the issue is there and i am sure the game at 1080p and with AA would look even better.

 

[Risk Breaker]

~844x475 [undocked]

That's lower than Vita's native resolution :x

 

[Piichan]

I'll probably just wait for a possible resolution patch for Switch. If there doesn't seem to be one in the near future, I'm getting it on PS4 Pro.

 

[delaneya]

I don't know, looks impressive to me to say the switch is a handheld device. Look at the size of it compared to a PS4.

 

[Skittzo0413]

This thread is full of some rather intense and obvious “apologoetica“ of the readily obvious switch hardware shortcomings. TAA negates resolution differnces? Yeah OK. Try that in a listwars thread, not a DF one please.
Off-topic but... Switch having so few games as a plus? That is an interesting way to view having no bc real library and a thin laznch lineup.

No, being a handheld you can play anywhere at any time makes it far easier to actually play your games than it would on a PC or console hooked up to a TV. I already have 5 games and I'm about to get this, which would be my 6th. In less than a month.

Also your point about TAA makes absolutely no sense, that's something DF explicitly mentioned as a potential reason they went with a lower resolution. I don't think this game is indicative of any "Switch hardware shortcomings" so I really have no idea what you're talking about there.

I just thought the resolutions felt like such random numbers. The game's shader and post-processing effects are what should be getting more attention.

Agreed. I made a post earlier that developers should just invent a new metric combining resolution, AA and other post processing effects. Since one of the most noticeable changes (if not the most noticeable change) with higher resolution is less aliasing.

I thought the whole point of their resolution and AA choices was that, in a foliage heavy game with little sharp details and soft texture work the pure definition of the image is a flawed metric, and the developers were clearly going for a CG, Pixar look.
Pixar used to render films at resolutions lower than 1080p, usually a bit below 900p just like the PS4 version. 35mm film does not resolve 1080p when projected (Usually between 720p and 900p once all is said and done, accounting for processing and optics) and neither does 2K digital projection. Fine art prints probably don't either, not that I really care when I print shit.

The point with this is, fine detail is just a metric of IQ in rendering, and this game looks super clean and fooled people into thinking it's 1080p. Post processing of images is here to stay, and we are going to see methods like this more and more going forward. I'd rather have precious GPU milliseconds devoted to great TAA that delivers a clean image than to more, extremely aliased pixels.

In other news, this bodes extremely well for multiplatform games on Switch.

That's an interesting perspective. The problem with this approach though is the increased blur, especially (apparently) on the Switch handheld mode.

 

[orioto]

I thought the whole point of their resolution and AA choices was that, in a foliage heavy game with little sharp details and soft texture work the pure definition of the image is a flawed metric, and the developers were clearly going for a CG, Pixar look.
Pixar used to render films at resolutions lower than 1080p, usually a bit below 900p just like the PS4 version. 35mm film does not resolve 1080p when projected (Usually between 720p and 900p once all is said and done, accounting for processing and optics) and neither does 2K digital projection. Fine art prints probably don't either, not that I really care when I print shit.

The point with this is, fine detail is just a metric of IQ in rendering, and this game looks super clean and fooled people into thinking it's 1080p. Post processing of images is here to stay, and we are going to see methods like this more and more going forward. I'd rather have precious GPU milliseconds devoted to great TAA that delivers a clean image than to more, extremely aliased pixels.

In other news, this bodes extremely well for multiplatform games on Switch.

We're not far from the killing point: "475p gives a more cinematic experience"

 

[sixteen-bit]

dark10x, any idea if Puyo Tetris is 1080p docked? Demo is on JP eShop.

 

[GhostTrick]

We're not far from the killing point: "475p gives a more cinematic experience"

I'd say it's easier to spot subnative res on a smaller screen as you're closer to it rather than it is on a big screen you're sitting far away.

 

[terrier]

We're not far from the killing point: "475p gives a more cinematic experience"

yup, plus black borders. Cinematic experience on the go guys! Game changer

I'd say it's easier to spot subnative res on a smaller screen as you're closer to it rather than it is on a big screen you're sitting far away.

yup, was one of the things criticized the most when some games on Vita ran at lower resolution than its screen. Now this issue seems to be non existant.

 

[jroc74]

This thread is full of some rather intense and obvious ”apologoetica” of the readily obvious switch hardware shortcomings. TAA negates resolution differnces? Yeah OK. Try that in a listwars thread, not a DF one please.
Off-topic but... Switch having so few games as a plus? That is an interesting way to view having no bc real library and a thin laznch lineup.

So I wasnt the only one who saw that post as ...huh? Especially since this is what they bolded:

Simply because I will actually play the game versus it just sitting in an endless list of games

What does having an endless list of games as a con even mean in this sense?

I had a Wii U with only 2 games and barely played it. My kids had two 3DS's but played my Vita and 3 home consoles alot more and all 4 had way more games than their 3DS.

Their 3DS being a handheld with less games didnt make a difference.

I guess the [insert console here] haz no gamez meme doesnt apply to the Switch...

As to the game, I wonder will there be a later patch to the resolution for PS4.

 

[Hermii]

I'd say it's easier to spot subnative res on a smaller screen as you're closer to it rather than it is on a big screen you're sitting far away.

Yea it seems to me 720p may have been overkill for how powerful the Switch is.

 

[RichiRamjag]

What ? you must be drunk, GAF insisted heavily on telling me you can't see any IQ difference on the Switch screen cause it's so small!

Nah. It's crazy obvious. You'll never really see me on gaf complaining about graphics all that often, but that handheld mode doesn't look good and it being portable doesn't excuse it. I know it was a quick port, but come on sumo...

Also, the people trying to make it about the switch's power are missing the point. This is bad optimization, simple as that. Snake Pass isn't some technical marvel. The PS4 resolution should be higher too.

 

[Liabe Brave]

I love how people are declaring that this game has to be poorly optimised or something despite the physics and animation stuff going on under the hood and the considerable amount of scene detail.

Extraordinary situations call for special explanations. Snake Pass is exceptionally low resolution for PS4. There is only a single game with worse resolution across the board, and it's in Early Access.

I think it's reasonable to have different expectations from a massive publisher like EA developing a retail game than a small studio like Sumo.

Sumo Digital is not a small studio. They're bigger than Sucker Punch, Platinum, The Coalition, etc. The internal team that worked on Snake Pass is not big, though.

35mm film does not resolve 1080p when projected (Usually between 720p and 900p once all is said and done, accounting for processing and optics) and neither does 2K digital projection. Fine art prints probably don't either, not that I really care when I print shit.

Very little of this is true, or even makes sense. Even when projected, 35mm film usually resolves a little more detail than 1080p. "Resolve 1080p" has zero meaning when applied to printing.

Also your point about TAA makes absolutely no sense, that's something DF explicitly mentioned as a potential reason they went with a lower resolution.

No, they didn't. Digital Foundry said nothing about AA being a reason for the lower resolution.

 

[Skittzo0413]

No, they didn't. Digital Foundry said nothing about AA being a reason for the lower resolution.

John said (in the video in the OP) that the low resolution might be surprising because UE4's TAA is good enough that lower resolutions with enough TAA can look better than a higher resolution with no TAA. That's literally a reason presented for why they might choose a lower resolution.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

We buy new systems to get better visuals, IQ and performance. So while we can also enjoy games that do not have the desired technical level, it is important to point it out because it may end with devs priorizing launching unfinished/unpolished games ,something that has happened many times, over quality. In fact many people some times wait until games get patches and are ploished enough to play it.

I buy them to get new games and new gameplay, preferably innovative. So please do not speak for everyone...

 

[terrier]

I buy them to get new games and new gameplay, preferably innovative. So please do not speak for everyone...

well, considering this is a technical thread and we talk about that...however games with new gameplay don't always need new hardware.You can stick with a NES if you wish. However new hardware usually means more power to bring better visuals, and soundand that includes eye candy, resolution, framerate and physics.
ALso i speak for myself, despite being sure most expect better visuals with each new generation, or maybe i am wrong and all the people waiting for scorpio just want it for new gameplay whatever that means.
If you are looking for new gameplay experiences i think you are in the wrong thread.

 

[th3sicknness]

The one takeaway I got from this is that the developer was able to port an Unreal Engine game quickly. With more time the developer might have been able to squeeze a little bit more out of the switch portable version.

 

[flozuki]

well, considering this is a technical thread and we talk about that...however games with new gameplay don't always need new hardware.You can stick with a NES if you wish. However new hardware usually means more power to bring better visuals, and that includes eye candy, resolution, framerate and physics.
ALso i speak for myself, despite being sure most expect better visuals with each new generation, or maybe i am wrong and all the people waiting for scorpio just want it for new gameplay whatever that means.

Well, different use cases can exist, I think that is not suprising. Most likely there won't be any new releases for NES and I am pretty confident that people won't be satisfied with Scorpio when all MS offers are the already familiar and known titles with a slighty better performance or IQ.

The one takeaway I got from this is that the developer was able to port an Unreal Engine game quickly. With more time the developer might have been able to squeeze a little bit more out of the switch portable version.

Yep, I haven't seen it in person yet, but since people where partly suprised about the undocked resolution (because they wouldn't guessed it is that low after seeing it on their switch) I think that is a pretty nice start for upcoming ports or use of UE.

 

[patientx]

I buy them to get new games and new gameplay, preferably innovative. So please do not speak for everyone...

I am with you on this. For example got my switch now all new and shiny but seeing Monster Hunter isn't coming to it soon -not announced at all- I finally imported XX and even modded my New3DS second stick to a PSP one to play it. Games , games games! , and innovation too of course Well if they finally made it for the Switch with better graphics I'll be there day one too. But if I think like oh! they couldn't make it run native res on this portably -if they release it for exp like this snake pass situation, would I "pass" it ? No, because it is not the graphics that is making me play this game it is the overall experience.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Or maybe.

Stop worrying about resolutions.

Play games to play them.

I play games to play them, but when the final product is blurry in handheld mode to the point where I don't want to play it that way, something is wrong. That resolution is obnoxiously low. There's no reason for switch games being released with vita level resolutions.

Also, you're in a digital foundry thread. People are going to talk about these things.

 

[Ridley327]

Yea it seems to me 720p may have been overkill for how powerful the Switch is.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, especially since this is the first case of a game that is flatly below the native resolution of the Switch's screen at all times. Granted, getting one less than a month into the life of the system isn't the most promising sign out there, but given the circumstances surrounding this port, I also don't think this is where a trend is going to start.

 

[datamage]

I think his point was that since you can play the Switch anywhere, you are more incline to actually play it.

This was indeed my point. I don't really care to sit @ my TV to play a game like Snake Pass, it's much more accessible on the Switch. The amount of games available has nothing to do with that.

 

[datamage]

Eh, the resolution definitely could be better, but for a month port that made the simultaneous release of the other platforms is pretty good.They're gonna patch the game soonish so undocked should not look blurry after that. Docked definitely looks better though. The game is fun so most of the graphical nonsense kinda goes out of the window for me.

Is this a confirmed thing, or wishful thinking?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Yea it seems to me 720p may have been overkill for how powerful the Switch is.

And people wanted a 1080p screen lmao.

 

[terrier]

Well, different use cases can exist, I think that is not suprising. Most likely there won't be any new releases for NES and I am pretty confident that people won't be satisfied with Scorpio when all MS offers are the already familiar and known titles with a slighty better performance or IQ.

oh of course, but pretending that each new generation (that usually implies updated hw) doesn't mainly point to better visuals/sound and physics is kind of ridiculous.
If people didn't want better visuals wouldn't spend their money toward new consoles and nes would still get games.
And i am sure most people waiting for scorpio, as well as those that bought a ps4 PRo , are looking exactly that: better visuals in one form or another. (and not sure but people with pro seem really satisfied for the most part)

No, because it is not the graphics that is making me play this game it is the overall experience.

it is always the overall experience, but that overall includes visuals, and despise them is just ridiculous.

And as already said, this is a technical thread, and this game's resolution is bad on both ps4 and switch no matter how you spin it. Oh, and despite that is also playable of course, nobody as said otherwise.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

Hadn't seen anything about this game before this analysis, looks really relaxing! They didn't really go into much detail with the Pro version, unless I missed something?

 

[Zedark]

Is this a confirmed thing, or wishful thinking?

https://twitter.com/SumoDigitalLtd/status/847032633011982340

I believe this confirms they are working on fixing the blurry look on Switch.

And people wanted a 1080p screen lmao.

People only wanted it because their phones had it. Seemed like a highly ridiculous argument for a dedicated gaming device.

Hadn't seen anything about this game before this analysis, looks really relaxing! They didn't really go into much detail with the Pro version, unless I missed something?

John has said in this thread that they had to hurry to get this out before going to EGX, so they decided on doing a partial analysis, with more to come after EGX.

 

[datamage]

https://twitter.com/SumoDigitalLtd/status/847032633011982340

I believe this confirms they are working on fixing the blurry look on Switch.

Hmm, my cynicism tells me they were referring to the HD Rumble issue and not the blur, since a patch for the rumble just came out. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[tkscz]

No, they didn't. Digital Foundry said nothing about AA being a reason for the lower resolution.

Literally said that in the video.

 

[Skittzo0413]

https://twitter.com/SumoDigitalLtd/status/847032633011982340

I believe this confirms they are working on fixing the blurry look on Switch.

This tweet and the others a few pages back talking about the resolution overall being different for them is so weird. They provided the handheld mode footage to DF, so that should be the same resolution for them.

This is all very strange. It would be quite odd if the resolutions were all greatly increased in a patch shortly.

Hmm, my cynicism tells me they were referring to the HD Rumble issue and not the blur, since a patch for the rumble just came out. I hope I'm wrong though.

I would buy that, yeah.

 

[JBourne]

Thanks, I'll probably get that then. Googled around to make sure it has R2/L2 and it does.

Good stuff.

Battery life is okay?

I'm tempted to get this in case I get an iPad or tablet.
-apparently doesn't work with iPad.

Your one looks better though.

Battery life is great. It's a decent controller. Feels cheap enough that I don't feel the need to baby it, while also not the standard flimsy POS that you usually get for that price. Has a nice rubber coating. It's a totally adequate bluetooth controller that I feel comfortable leaving in my bag every day.

 

[flozuki]

oh of course, but pretending that each new generation (that usually implies updated hw) doesn't mainly point to better visuals/sound and physics is kind of ridiculous.
If people didn't want better visuals wouldn't bspend their money toward new consoles and nes would still get games.
And i am sure most people waiting for scorpio, as well as those that bought a ps4 PRo , are looking exactly that: better visuals in one form or another. (and not sure but people with pro seem really satisfied for the most part)
it is always the overall experience, but that overall includes visuals, and despise them is just ridiculous.

Haven't they gotten better visuals on a handheld yet still have the possibility to use it docked? No console can do this, of course not everyone needs it. Switch delivers far more progress in certain areas/ niches that MS and Sony currently can't and won't. I for one am slightly dissappointed in what I received until now on PS4 Pro (especially the noise level is disappointing but that is another story) and if MS is just releasing their usual new Forza and Crackdown stuff I won't spend a penny for another XBox iteration (especially since I can get a much better visual performance on PC)... that would really be disappointing but I don't expect much regarding interesting new game concepts or IPs from them.
To summarize, people don't want just better visuals, they want new experiences and visuals can be a part of that.

 

[Cmerrill]

https://twitter.com/SumoDigitalLtd/status/847032633011982340

I believe this confirms they are working on fixing the blurry look on Switch.

They need to work on the blurry looking ps4 version.

It annoys how casual John is about the sub 900p resolution on the ps4, as if it's just acceptable. It's a little indie game, and the resolution is embarrassing.

I wish John would have called the developers out on this. It's a technical analysis, so call out the bullshit resolution. All the great AA in the world doesn't make up for the lack of proper optimization and native 1080p resolution.

 

[terrier]

Haven't they gotten better visuals on a handheld yet still have the possibility to use it docked? No console can do this, of course not everyone needs it. Switch delivers far more progress in certain areas/ niches that MS and Sony currently can't and won't. I for one am slightly dissappointed in what I received until now on PS4 Pro (especially the noise level is dissappointing but that is another story) and if MS is just releasing their usual new Forza and Crackdown stuff I won't spend a penny for another XBox iteration (especially since I can get a much better visual performance on PC)... that would really be disappointing but I don't expect much regarding interesting new game concepts or IPs from them.

i am not discussing the point of switch hybrid nature (yet not the first one to being able to being able to play on the go and connect to a tv). Not sure what you mean by delivering more progress in certain areas, but this discussion belongs to another thread.
And sorry if you feel disappointed with pro (noise levels is a hw issue, hope you aren't disappointed with many issues switch has had too ), but i think the main selling point of the pro was basically better visuals/iq and that is what seems to deliver so far for supported games. Kinda what you would expect for docked Switch i suppose.

vTo summarize, people don't want just better visuals, they want new experiences and visuals can be a part of that.

People want new games, want better visuals, and if new gameplay or experiences are part of that the better. That is what has moved the market so far.
And please, this is a technical thread, for new experiences maybe a new thread is required. (interesting that this game isn't exactly a new experience only available on switch)

 

[Zedark]

They need to work on the blurry looking ps4 version.

It annoys how casual John is about the sub 900p resolution on the ps4, as if it's just acceptable. It's a little indie game, and the resolution is embarrassing.

I wish John would have called the developers out on this. It's a technical analysis, so call out the bullshit resolution. All the great AA in the world doesn't make up for the lack of proper optimization and native 1080p resolution.

I got the impression John was rather pleased with the end results of the game, what with his praise of the TAA and of several effects like water caustics. He doesn't seem to consider the resolution to be a damning thing for the game, at least judging from the video.