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"PS4 is like a 5 years old PC and it’s really holding developers back"

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Man, for somebody with a sweet gaming PC, it's weird how you have such a hostile tone when trying to defend HZD and UC4 as the best looking, best playing games ever.
I never said either of those games were the best looking or best playing. Please do not put words in my mouth. The only thing I said is that they were better looking than the witcher 3 which isn't an accomplishment because of how average the game looks.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I never said either of those games were the best looking or best playing. Please do not put words in my mouth. The only thing I said is that they were better looking than the witcher 3 which isn't an accomplishment because of how average the game looks.
The Witcher 3 doesn't look average at all though. Even at 1440p 60 on high settings that game makes me just sit and admire it every time I play.
 

jdstorm

Banned
None of it actually impacted the gameplay for the better. I played just cause 3 and unity on pc, both games still sucked at 60fps. Oh and mirrors edge catalyst wasn't held back by hardware, it was held back by bad game design. I suppose the same is true for you other 2 examples. Try again.

Im not talking about framerate though. In the case of Mirrors Edge, the level design seemed compromised by a lack of power. Players ran around small area's seperated by hidden loading screens. That you couldn't just run anywhere was something that fundamentally neutered catalyst's level design.

This is also true of enemies where you were only ever fighting a small number of enemies (usually 3-5) assumedly because the CPU couldnt handle any more.


If consoles can barely handle Mirrors Edge Catalyst, How do you think Anthem will run? Assumedly it will be similar, with lots of hidden loading screens, dense environments that limit draw distances, minimal amounts of enemies, reduced physics and a fair amount of pop in.
 

Sevyne

Member
Could they do more? Maybe.
Would they do more? Probably not.

We heard the same thing on the tail end of last gen and what happened when we got to next gen? We got a bunch of cross gen same old nonsense games for what felt like an eternity, so I call BS when devs make these types of comments.
 
Everyone on GAF has a 1080ti and water cooled i7.... but prefers to play on their PS4.

Get with the program!
Hmmm......
A9AUIcz.jpg
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Funny thing is even if you develop exclusively for PC, at some point you really need to stop and think about all the PC gamers who may not have the money or the will to upgrade to the latest bells and whistles, and adjust your game accordingly.

That is, if you want your game to reach the biggest possible market.

So in a way, yeah that peasant-level pc gamers are holding back games too /s
 
No it's not. All of the time and money needed to get the base consoles up to an acceptable level of performance and/or fidelity could have been used elsewhere in the game to further improve the game. If the studio would be given the same budget but only had to port to the Pro and X consoles, there's a good chance the game could have had visual or gameplay improvements.



optimisation and AAA production values on console games prove the opposite, regarding ''further improvements''.
 
God damn that was a hard read.

I mean obviously consoles are always going to be behind PC. Who the hell is going to want to buy a console over $500. I mean even $500 tag hit X1 pretty hard and X1X is still getting mixed feelings about its price.
 

jdmonmou

Member
Im not talking about framerate though. In the case of Mirrors Edge, the level design seemed compromised by a lack of power. Players ran around small area's seperated by hidden loading screens. That you couldn't just run anywhere was something that fundamentally neutered catalyst's level design.

This is also true of enemies where you were only ever fighting a small number of enemies (usually 3-5) assumedly because the CPU couldnt handle any more.


If consoles can barely handle Mirrors Edge Catalyst, How do you think Anthem will run? Assumedly it will be similar, with lots of hidden loading screens, dense environments that limit draw distances, minimal amounts of enemies, reduced physics and a fair amount of pop in.
I played Mirror's Edge Catalyst on PS4 (rented it from Gamefly) and I don't recall any of the issues you are talking about. It was an open world game and I don't recall there being any loading screens between sections. The fact that it was open world was one of the things I hated about the game. The first game was a lot better because it was linear rather than an open world filled with repetitive missions. Also, there were plenty of areas in the game where you had to do battle with or outrun numerous enemies (a lot more than 3-5). Saying consoles can barely run Mirror's Edge is extreme hyperbole.
 

aEku

Member
dont know if it was already said, got no time atm.

but dont forget, you dont need to upgrade your pc each 2-3 years now, 5 years is enough for a mid-class gamer pc.. just because of that =).
 
Im not talking about framerate though. In the case of Mirrors Edge, the level design seemed compromised by a lack of power. Players ran around small area's seperated by hidden loading screens. That you couldn't just run anywhere was something that fundamentally neutered catalyst's level design.

This is also true of enemies where you were only ever fighting a small number of enemies (usually 3-5) assumedly because the CPU couldnt handle any more.


If consoles can barely handle Mirrors Edge Catalyst, How do you think Anthem will run? Assumedly it will be similar, with lots of hidden loading screens, dense environments that limit draw distances, minimal amounts of enemies, reduced physics and a fair amount of pop in.
None of what you've mentioned will deliver a next generation jump in gameplay. On the "new" gen consoles, we're still playing games with last gen gameplay. Again, mirrors edge catalyst was a terribly designed game that had nothing to do with power. Yes, you had less enemies but that's the cost of open world and frostbite. They could've used the same engine as mirrors edge and delivered better gameplay with similar visuals. Making a bigger world does not equate to a better game.

The same is true for anthem. They've decided to place an emphasis on visuals and when you work with finite resources, there will always be compromises. Next gen, when the consoles are approximately 12tf, we'll still be having this discussion. When you work with finite resources, this happens. Remember the destruction and physics in red faction on the ps360? No games this gen have matched it despite having almost 10x more gpu resources as last gen. Why? Priorities.
 

MikeyB

Member
I am sure that artisinal cabinetmakers feel the exact same way about how small condo kitchens are affecting their market. People should get with the program and buy big homes with huge kitchens. Only then will the art thrive.
 
What's interesting is I've always been interested in budget PC's, or using yesterday's used parts. The PS4 and Xb0 are pretty good at what they do - simple, straightforward game-on-TV boxes. I approve of that.

PC is in an interesting place. Most of the games that set a PC apart from the console exclusives are the choices that are enabled on the open system. That means weird input options, higher framerates or high resolutions at the expense of graphical fidelity, mods, or a lot of releases that just wouldn't make the cut through the console gatekeeper. So I don't really agree with the developer in the article in regard to holding gamers back - what we've seen on PC is a culture that's built on top of each game. The same culture tends to build on console games too, but without the open platform it just doesn't stick around as long.

There's certainly some games that aren't possible on consoles right now - anything involving heavily simulation and CPU cycles. But I've thought that we've reached the point where any gameplay was possible on any modern platform quite a while ago, and I still think we're there. Even the Xbox 360 received a playable and largely intact port of Crysis 1, which I don't think I've seen too many shooters ever top in terms of systematic complexity.

Next-gen will have a lot to sell us on. I do like playing my games on PC at 60 fps with special ultra settings, but it's not like those will be enough for those who play the grandest AAA games. I'm sure the industry will scale up again whenever the PS5 comes around, but until then I'll enjoy the AF x16 and the fancy effects I can't pronounce or spell, even if it's only a marginal upgrade over the console versions. That's not really why I play on PC primarily though.
 

Vorg

Banned
I am sure that artisinal cabinetmakers feel the exact same way about how small condo kitchens are affecting their market. People should get with the program and buy big homes with huge kitchens. Only then will the art thrive.

Seriously. I don't understand the point they're trying to make, to be honest. Consoles are and have always been meant to be affordable mass market machines. They've also pretty much always been lagging behind PCs in graphics because of that. (except maybe when the ps2 was launched. That shit looked insane.)
 
They require both single and multithreaded performance generally beyond what the consoles put out AFAIK.




They seem rather optimised from what I have played over every Total War and COH / DOW game. *shrugs* Total War games you generally just kinda accept that the highest settings mean below 60fps on almost every PC out there. I do not think the lack of overhead on consoles can spare them the pain of highly intensive single threaded performance. Some things like AI really cannot be super parallelised...

I havent played the total war games, i just see constant complaints of poor performance and a lack of threading(And constant promises from the devs that its been fixed in the latest entry). I have played coh tho and that series was always poor from a performance standpoint. Fps just plummets randomly despite gpu and cpu usage both being low. The benchmarks for the new dawn of war game are also pretty low for such a graphically simple title. Doesnt seem to require much in the way of cpu either
 
That doesn't even make sense to what I was saying and this isn't a AAA game, so any assumptions you may have don't apply here.
ok

I say that money will bring the improvements and time for more improvements. If they had to make the game for a 1000 euros ps4 and 1000 euros one, improvements could likely not happen.
 
I guess, I mean he would know more then I do, but as long as it's spitting out games like Horizon, Uncharted 4, God of War, Spider-Man, and a bunch of other beautiful games, I don't really mind.
 

jdstorm

Banned
I played Mirror's Edge Catalyst on PS4 (rented it from Gamefly) and I don't recall any of the issues you are talking about. It was an open world game and I don't recall there being any loading screens between sections. The fact that it was open world was one of the things I hated about the game. The first game was a lot better because it was linear rather than an open world filled with repetitive missions. Also, there were plenty of areas in the game where you had to do battle with or outrun numerous enemies (a lot more than 3-5). Saying consoles can barely run Mirror's Edge is extreme hyperbole.

The loading screens are hidden . Similarly to how last gen characters would always use elevators to travel between area's. Catalyst hides its loading screens in small tightly packed coridors that seperate each zone and require you to move slowly. Or on a grapling hook swing between buildings that slows your momentum and can only be accessed at certain parts of the map. You can actually trigger a loading prompt if you are going fast enough.

When people origionally imagined an open world Mirrors Edge, they imagined a true open wold akin to Assasins Creed or Watchdogs or GTA or Infamous Second Son. A full city to run around and explore/platform. Mirrors Edge Catalyst isn't that game. Catalyst is a series of platforming orientated portal levels glued together by hidden loading screens to form the facamile of an open world.

I really like the Mirrors Edge IP, and I liked Catalyst a fair bit. However it was clearly held back by hardware. Other examples include

1. Several times during the game in linear missons you go to the top of tall buildings. At the top, the Horizon is often obscured by clouds. Assumedly this is because the PS4 cant render the draw distance required.

2. Enemy numbers. I dont remember ever fighting more then 5 enemies in the one space aside from one mission in which the environment is small and lacks natural light due to being an indoor area. I could be misremembering though.

Edit:
None of what you've mentioned will deliver a next generation jump in gameplay. On the "new" gen consoles, we're still playing games with last gen gameplay. Again, mirrors edge catalyst was a terribly designed game that had nothing to do with power. Yes, you had less enemies but that's the cost of open world and frostbite. They could've used the same engine as mirrors edge and delivered better gameplay with similar visuals. Making a bigger world does not equate to a better game.

The same is true for anthem. They've decided to place an emphasis on visuals and when you work with finite resources, there will always be compromises. Next gen, when the consoles are approximately 12tf, we'll still be having this discussion. When you work with finite resources, this happens. Remember the destruction and physics in red faction on the ps360? No games this gen have matched it despite having almost 10x more gpu resources as last gen. Why? Priorities.

This is Untrue. The proof of this is Ubisoft's Steep which essentially fulfills the promise of what an open world Mirrors Edge game should be. A Large open high fidelity platforming sandbox where you can either follow tightly scripted missions or enjoy making you own path/own fun. Its a not a new gameplay idea, we had skate last gen. Yet Steep is the best itteration this generation and uses the extra power of modern consoles to make the world larger and more detailed. In a place where atmosphere is important, this is greatly appreciated. Yet Steep for all its positives is noticeably empty and is pretty light on snow physics.

This is the issue. Right now Devs can either make large empty worlds or they can make full worlds. This directly effects gameplay. For instance Steep's chairlift is a static object. With more CPU power it could be in motion. Going from static platforms to moving platforms in a platformer is a pretty big "gameplay" change.
 
The fastest single GPU in 2012 was the HD 7970 1 GHz edition. The PS4 pro is considerably more powerful. I also don't think that XOX is that much more powerful by his standards.

No it's not. The 7970 is a little bit more powerful in boost mode. They are actually very close power wise. Not sure why you think the Pro is more powerful let alone considerably so.
 
i'm not much of a system wars dude, but it was sad seeing the reactions to cloud initiatives

cloud is part of the way to fix the non-graphics parts of this (for all platforms, including PC), but y'all be hating
 

Quasar

Member
An odd statement given there's only a niche of PCs that are ahead of what the consoles offer.

Which is why we aren't drowning in a wealth of PC games that could not run on consoles if you look past interface differences.
 

Quasar

Member
i'm not much of a system wars dude, but it was sad seeing the reactions to cloud initiatives

cloud is part of the way to fix the non-graphics parts of this (for all platforms, including PC), but y'all be hating

Well its not surprising given how that cuts out great swathes of people being able to play games. And it raises questions about how long you can even play games, given how frequently game servers are shut down. Its interesting given the clamour around here for BC, whilst pushing cloud gaming would make that seem like a hill of beans.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Yeah---I wish I had the disposable income to make a monster gaming PC. But I don't, I do game a little on my razer laptop, and it's very nice, as I can play some xbox one exclusives that aren't on PS4. Although Ryse and Quantum Break make my computer sound like a jet engine.

I am happy with my experience. I feel like his statement aren't any different than any other console generation, or other consoles. Not sure why he singled out playstation.
 
Yeah---I wish I had the disposable income to make a monster gaming PC. But I don't, I do game a little on my razer laptop, and it's very nice, as I can play some xbox one exclusives that aren't on PS4. Although Ryse and Quantum Break make my computer sound like a jet engine.

I am happy with my experience. I feel like his statement aren't any different than any other console generation, or other consoles. Not sure why he singled out playstation.

Trust me, you're not missing out on much. As long as you're able to get access to the games you like and play with reasonable performance, that's all that matters.
 

KageMaru

Member
ok

I say that money will bring the improvements and time for more improvements. If they had to make the game for a 1000 euros ps4 and 1000 euros one, improvements could likely not happen.

So are you saying more money allows for more optimization across the board?

This isn't a AAA game, so money, time, and resources are at a premium. In that situation needing to work harder for similar or lesser results could understandably be a frustration. There is no telling how the game could have turned out if they weren't limited to the base consoles because that's not an option for developers.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's a nonsensical argument because consoles can't be $900 and the market for $900 machines is smaller, so developers would be held back anyway as there wouldn't be a large enough market for massive projects on extremely powerful machines.

The Jaguar CPU's are here to stay for the rest of this decade. As late as 2015 we were still getting some major (non-sports) titles as cross-gen (The Phantom Pain, Rise of the Tomb Raider) and this guy thinks that we need a full shift now? No. Hell, Persona 5 was cross-gen and that came out in Japan last year, as did Tales of Berseria.

I'm a console gamer exclusively and would be totally fine with them becoming like phones where there's an optional new one ever year or two.

That'd be gross. No.

People can't buy 500$ consoles every two or three years.

Exactly, hardcore gamers on NeoGAF aren't most consumers.
 
I'm a console gamer exclusively and would be totally fine with them becoming like phones where there's an optional new one ever year or two.
 

jdstorm

Banned
Its worth remembering that before Gen 7 and its initially overpriced consoles. A console generation was typically 5-6 years + 2 years cross gen. The PS4/Xbox1 will have been out 6 years by holiday 2019. So this timeframe isn't at all unusual to be wanting new hardware.

For 80% of PS4 Owners their console will be 6 years old in November 2019. Thats long enough to be worth an upgrade.
 

Narroo

Member
He said: " you would see all different games."

Like what exactly? What games would we be seeing now that couldn't possibly have existed otherwise? Uncharted 4? Halo 6? Horizon Dawn?

Perhaps a more powerful, PC-like, console would allow interactive holograms? At worst, the only real genres I can think of that might have trouble with a PS4 would be large RTS'es and 2D sprite based games, like Skullgirls. The latter is more due to technical issues of 3D versus 2D to boot.

Here is his full quote:

I've never understood the bolded. Based on Steam stats alone, the majority of people don't have PCs that are as capable as current consoles, so if these consoles didn't exist then the lowest common denominator is actually lower.

Which is a very good point. People seem to think that if consoles didn't exist, we'd all be running $800 enthusiast PCs. That, or all the popular games would be geared towards that market. Nobody assumes the target mark would be lower.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Its worth remembering that before Gen 7 and its initially overpriced consoles. A console generation was typically 5-6 years + 2 years cross gen. The PS4/Xbox1 will have been out 6 years by holiday 2019. So this timeframe isn't at all unusual to be wanting new hardware.

Cross-gen wasn't really a thing then.... Not often.

Also, 360 and PS3 weren't overpriced for what they were. They were actually a bargain.


I think the question is why would you want to get rid of the standard of buying a new black box that sits under your TV and is supposed to provide years of entertainment, and move to the smartphone model instead?

Who's the target audience? A small nexus of PC gamers and console gamers who want to upgrade every year? It would suck and most people wouldn't like it or constantly having last year's model for $400.
 
Yeah, it's like a PC, except it works without losing hours updating drivers and settings, it has AAA exclusives and it doesn't cost $1000 or more.

That's why people play on that I guess. So many reasons.

Please... Can we retire this argument. It's a really annoying misconception. Pretty much none of those things are true, and haven't been for years.

It was true enough for me five years ago, which is why I switched to console only.

I could probably format my hard drive, load windows, download drivers and a sizable game in 2 hours. Yesterday I updated my bios and it took me less than 15 mins. If it takes hours to update drivers and "settings" you got issues.
 
Nah. I don't care about better graphics. I am happy with this generation, and I could stick with it for another 5 years. If developers are struggling it's because their design approach is stale.
 

Black_Wolf

Neo Member
That statement flat out ignores the whole concept of affordability that comes with consoles. Yeah, they're not outperforming high-end PCs, but they don't cost as much either.

Speaking of high-end PCs, the statement in the article is made as if PC gamers all run 1080ti's, but that simply isn't the case. Not everyone can blow $300 or more on a high-end graphics card (i.e. the price of an entire current-gen console) and Steam's PC statistics prove this. Design games strictly with that high-end consumer in mind and you won't have enough sales to breakeven.

Long story short, you'll have a hard time building a PC for the same price you'll spend on a current gen console. No PC that can be built for $250 will have the same performance as games on a PS4 Slim or Xbox One S, period. Same goes for a $500 PC vs. an Xbox One X (Scorpio). Consoles have the advantage of optimization - developers don't have to worry about five-hundred different potential permutations of hardware combos. Everyone has the same PS4 / Xbox One model. The same can't be said about PC, where you've got countless combos (AMD, NVidia, Intel, different models from each company, etc).
 
I think the question is why would you want to get rid of the standard of buying a new black box that sits under your TV and is supposed to provide years of entertainment, and move to the smartphone model instead?

Who's the target audience? A small nexus of PC gamers and console gamers who want to upgrade every year?

Well I say that as a PS4 owner who's in no hurry to purchase a PS4 Pro

Having the option is cool, I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm not a huge tech or graphics guy so I'm fine with my standard PS4, but hey maybe this time next year I'll be keen to upgrade? Can either take it or leave it, just like a phone. I still use an iPhone 5 lol.

The black box you buy will still give you entertainment for years to come. Only you'll have the option to upgrade it if you want.
 

jdstorm

Banned
Cross-gen wasn't really a thing then....

Also, 360 and PS3 weren't overpriced for what they were. They were actually a bargain.

The PS3 was almost $1000 when it launched in Australia. While it was fair value for the hardware. It was overpriced in the sense that it was filled with technology that cost more then the mass market could afford.

What i meant by Cross Gen was that previous generation platforms could reliably expect to see multiplatform support for about 2 years. They obviously wont get every game, but too much money has been invested in big AAA games to abandon the large installbase on the consoles those games were likely targeting when they entered development.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Well I say that as a PS4 owner who's in no hurry to purchase a PS4 Pro

Having the option is cool, I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm not a huge tech or graphics guy so I'm fine with my standard PS4, but hey maybe this time next year I'll be keen to upgrade? Can either take it or leave it, just like a phone. I still use an iPhone 5 lol.

I think you hit the nail on the head though, you're in no hurry to purchase a PS4 Pro. Neither are most other PS4 owners like myself.

There's just no market for annual upgrades and the people who really want that aren't like you or I (console-exclusive gamers). People who are into annual upgrades and all that and are big into "the option" as you put it, are probably on PC primarily for just that reason.

I don't want to feel like I have last year's model of PlayStation a year after it initially comes out anyway.
 

Klotera

Member
Which is a very good point. People seem to think that if consoles didn't exist, we'd all be running $800 enthusiast PCs. That, or all the popular games would be geared towards that market. Nobody assumes the target mark would be lower.

Yeah, I have a PS4 Pro and a PC with a 1070. But just over a year ago, I still had a 750Ti. A bit closer to the base PS4, relatively speaking, especially when you consider console optimization. And I had to spend a decent penny to upgrade to the 1070. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that the move to x86 on consoles has been good for both console and PC gamers.
 
Article is dumb, if you want to hit a wide enough market to be highly successful on PC, you have to cater to lower end specs. There is a reason why Overwatch, CSGO, and League of Legends are the biggest games on PC. They run on virtually anything, from your average school laptop to public use computers in a library, to gaming cafe computers, etc. The high end PC audience is too small to support AAA development on its own. Consoles aren't holding games back when Ps4 and Xbox One are more powerful than the average computer people use to play games on Steam.
 

Shin

Banned
Article is dumb, if you want to hit a wide enough market to be highly successful on PC, you have to cater to lower end specs. There is a reason why Overwatch, CSGO, and League of Legends are the biggest games on PC. They run on virtually anything, from your average school laptop to public use computers in a library, to gaming cafe computers, etc. The high end PC audience is too small to support AAA development on its own. Consoles aren't holding games back when Ps4 and Xbox One are more powerful than the average computer people use to play games on Steam.

Which is why I believe the next gen of consoles will push and make 4k more accessible and mainstream than PC's.
 
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