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[SpicyKeychain]

I would certainly much prefer that the playing field in video games was more level (less emphasis on sexy/pointless,disproportionately endowed women), but there are all kinds of audiences and there is one for this kind of mini-game. Some people like sex, some like boobs and titillating fantasy. If it wasn't so frustratingly prevalent in this form of entertainment, I don't think there would be such a reaction, so it's definitely not a bad thing to be more aware of content like this. It'd be great for that passion to be applied to making other kinds of games too, though.

I agree with this. Regardless of what I think about this gigolo mode (don't think it's really in good taste, tbh), I think a crucial aspect to the evolution of a medium for widespread acceptance is its ability to offer dimensions while catering to different demographics and audiences. Michael Bay exists comfortably within the same medium as Lars Von Trier and Alfonso Cuaron, for example.

And by acceptance, I don't mean "approval", I mean acceptance into everyday life to a point where people don't second-guess why they like a certain thing. They simply like it.

I don't know. I think movies and books reached their respective evolutionary apexes before the advent of social media, where any content deemed objectionable wouldn't have been pushed into the limelight with such immediacy via systems that incentivize quick looks and snap judgments.

The creators within their respective mediums came under scrutiny by other creators (ie. Richardson's "Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded" getting lampooned by Henry Fielding's "Shamela") first, allowing for more of a reflexive dialogue as opposed to the quick fire execution squads we have now. That's not to imply there's no room for critics, quite the opposite. I just wish critics could take the entire spectrum of the medium they analyze as a whole, which doesn't seem to be happening.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I would certainly much prefer that the playing field in video games was more level (less emphasis on sexy/pointless,disproportionately endowed women), but there are all kinds of audiences and there is one for this kind of mini-game. Some people like sex, some like boobs and titillating fantasy. If it wasn't so frustratingly prevalent in this form of entertainment, I don't think there would be such a reaction, so it's definitely not a bad thing to be more aware of content like this. It'd be great for that passion to be applied to making other kinds of games too, though.

And, yes, my involvement does definitely suggest a grain of salt (which is why my affiliation is front and center), but the misinformation was bothering me. I do understand the dislike for it, and it's a valid reaction. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't unduly turning people off for the wrong reasons.

EDIT to add: I think you're the only one who saw my post, though, so it probably won't matter in the end.

That's fair. I definitely respect your stance on the matter. I just don't know if a Suda51 game, which are over the top and greatly exaggerated by nature (and not just in the case of social views on women), is really the place to open up to the wider discussion about sexism in games that's been going on for a bit.

 

[eorl]

So he's calling the game shit because of an optional mode about mondo wanting to have sex with women. A mode that mirrors what takes place in real life bars where people regularly go to meet people of the opposite sex and have indiscriminate sex afterwards.
I don't fucking understand this dude.

No. Just no at this whole reply. You can't say this is alright, not in the slightest. Even if it is "optional" the developer still went out of their way to put it in the damn game, making it clear that this is what they thought was right in terms of sexulasing the opposite sex and saying "hey this is fine!"

This is in no way a good thing for our industry, and I really hope we get out of these stupid design decisions that make gamers look like pigs and sexual criminals. Its absurd that anyone even thought this was a good idea, especially the whole looking at someone to make them like you? The hell? This doesn't happen at all in real life, and the notion that its fine to do so and you get rewarded for it is just...wow.

 

[Crash55118]

Also, in one of the trailers Mondo is on the moon, so saying it can "Fuck off into space" is something that it actually does!

 

[Coffee Dog]

Where's the satire in that?

Right about here

it seems like you're just gawking at a women's privates, then gawking at their privates again in an even more disturbing way, then giving them some crude gift to get an awkward clothed sex scene and power-up.

The main character is fucking pathetic, and this is his idea of being a badass. Creeping on girls in a club. It's ridiculous, and the fact that you seem to disagree even moreso.

 

[RSLAEV]

You know when his video started I was worried that there was something wrong with the game, like shitty controls or something. Thank god it's just him being offended for women.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

But being a murderer is illegal, while being a chauvinistic ass isn't.

I'm curious as to why you think that matters at all.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

Agreed.



Thanks. Games journalism needs to move past their reactionary view of sexuality and come to grips with it's existence. Be more European about it and stop with the slut shaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw63pdPIyVg

So sexual harassment is something to be socially accepted. Nice to know and nice to know you completely ignored my post.

 

[antitrop]

Even if it is "optional" the developer still went out of their way to put it in the damn game, making it clear that this is what they thought was right in terms of sexulasing the opposite sex and saying "hey this is fine!"

Fallacious as fuck.

 

[RangerBAD]

Suda didn't direct the game, and I'm not sure he even wrote it.

Who directed it? I've been wanting to know this for a while.

 

[Principate]

Murder acceptable, gross sexism not... mmkay.

Sorry folks, but I can't really understand why one thing is problematic and the other isn't, and I really don't understand where this notion that all games now have to be socially responsible has come from.

Being a chauvinistic jerk is less of a problem than being a murderous sociopath, a role that many titles are built around. Honestly if imitation is the concern I'd far rather see some fool ape the former than the latter, especially if I got to watch the (likely painful) rejection of this cavemen seduction technique.

TBF it's kind of a flawed comparison, Soldiers go to war that normally involves killing, sometimes a lot, unless it wasn't moral or justified people don't mind it as they are aiding their country of helping another. Your not demonised by society for being a soldier. You are rightly demonized for being a sexist pig.

Starts not to say all murder in videogames is like that (lot is not) but it's flawed generalization your using.

 

[Sword Familiar]

Is this going to be a game like Catherine where you don't want anyone to walk in whilst you play it because there's what looks like a underage cartoon character with her tits out? Just need to know so I can lock the door in advance.

Wait wat? What character in Catherine looks underage? Did we even play the same game? I don't remember any scenes being remotely embarrasing in that game. Are you sure you didn't accidentally play some doujin game instead?

 

[velociraptor]

I actually face palmed at this moment.

 

[MormaPope]

What gets me are the "typical game devs, being immature and making this medium look bad" comments, because anyone that's followed Suda's team knows how obscure or playfully shallow his games can be.

Suda has an audience, Killer is Dead isn't going to put up insanely strong numbers. This game was made for a specific audience in mind, an audience that expects Suda's team to be blunt and playful along with a layer of bizarre themes thrown in.

Sure, you can make observations or assertions based on anything, but the merit of those assertions depends on the context. Assertions by themselves have no power, the power comes from presenting ideas that some may not have developed.

 

[Nags]

So the mandatory, pre-release, Suda game witch-hunt is in full effect I see.

So no one is complaining about the ultra violence? Got some sick fuckers here.

Spoiler

Day 1

 

[Astarte]

No. Just no at this whole reply. You can't say this is alright, not in the slightest. Even if it is "optional" the developer still went out of their way to put it in the damn game, making it clear that this is what they thought was right in terms of sexulasing the opposite sex and saying "hey this is fine!"

This is in no way a good thing for our industry, and I really hope we get out of these stupid design decisions that make gamers look like pigs and sexual criminals. Its absurd that anyone even thought this was a good idea, especially the whole looking at someone to make them like you? The hell? This doesn't happen at all in real life, and the notion that its fine to do so and you get rewarded for it is just...wow.

Clarified in other responses.

Wouldn't that be
knife
in
eye
?

Knife in everywhere

 

[Alienous]

Holy shit, Matt.

I'm disappointed in this level of overreaction, particularly after the great analysis of Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us.

It's practically a parody at its level of implementation. And "talk to these ladies"? Would you prefer if they tried to distill an entire beginning of a relationship into a few words? Do you want the weeks, months or perhaps even years to be included? "Flowers, booze, money" ... ? What would you prefer? Honestly? A book on Confucius as a gift?

They made a silly mini-game within a much broader game. They made a smaller mini-game, which is clearly not a serious commentary on the 'roles of women within dating', but rather saying "Hey, look at this guy. Oogling. And this girl, image perfect. Isn't this a bizzare, twisted version of dating nobody has experienced?". You made a point, condemning an entire game based on a smaller element because ... sexism? Fuck off into space.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

sexual harassment is something to be socially accepted.

I disagree. That's quite an extreme opinion you have.

 

[Deified Data]

See, you not having played killer 7 or flower sun and rain puts your opinion of 'all his games are terrible and perverted' straight to shit. What the hell is up with male feminists and social justice brigades?

The hell is a "male feminist"? Answer is obvious, I know, but I just want you to clarify why you feel the need to specify a feminist's gender. Is the opinion of a male feminist less valuable to you? Does his gender prevent him from earnestly believing in gender equality? I'm genuinely curious.

Anyway...

Yeah, Gigolo Mode sounds pretty moronic. It wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if I were a fan of his games, but I'm sure it would keep my eyes rolling throughout. No one really finds this shit funny anymore.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I'm curious as to why you think that matters at all.

Because the person I quoted was saying that both would lead to behavior that mimics what the medium portrays. That line of thought doesn't make much sense, since people are dissuaded from becoming serial murders like in every FPS because it's clearly against the law, whereas no such law exists that condemns the objectification of women. It's not hard to understand.

 

[mikeGFG]

Sounds like a japanese video game to me.

 

[tirkaroKujo]

Yawn, more faux outrage about fictional tits. There seems to be a new one every week at this point.

Really, I still generally consider myself a feminist, but this is getting increasingly hard to do when it's being represented by chuckleheads like these who believe displaying a smidgen of sexuality in a video game will cause mass assault sprees all across the country and bring the women's rights movement back several decades.

But what really rustles my jimmies is that all this political correctness gone mad further reduces the chances of Senran Kagura Burst getting a localization, and that just ain't ballin'.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

It is disappointing that people can seemingly dismiss discussion about this mode and anything of this nature by saying "oh, it's a Japanese game, what do you expect?" Whether it's to be expected is irrelevant when the argument is over whether it's exploitative or even offensive. As a fan of Suda you obviously have to accept that at times there is going to be questionable content but at the same time I haven't seen enough of this to know whether it's as self aware as people are claiming. Judging by the article the video was based on however, that isn't the case.

I like Matt Lees a lot, and while he might have been a little over the top in his use of language I think he's in a totally understandable position. The article deals with things a bit more in-depth for anyone that hasn't glanced at it yet, though it is basically reiteration of what is said in the video (or the other way around, I suppose.)

Discussion shouldn't be dismissed but people are barking up the wrong tree here. This IS exploitative, no question, but that's the point. It's trashy anime exploitation. Asking for anything more from this game is like asking for movies of the same ilk to not be exploitative or objectify women/men as sex objects. It's tongue in cheek, it's ridiculous, it's cheap, it's B movie, it's dumb. This game doesn't mean the downfall of Suda 51 nor should it necessarily be a target for this feminist uprising we've seen in recent years. It's a niche title for a niche market that has just as much right as any other immature toned game to exist.

You want to argue woman's roles and how they're treated in games, go look at games trying to be even slightly serious but still objectify the female characters or dress them up in nonsensically sexual clothing. I'd love to see female characters treated with the same "respect" that male ones are, but Killer Is Dead is not the kind of game I'm going to take up arms against.

 

[Astarte]

The hell is a "male feminist"? Answer is obvious, I know, but I just want you to clarify why you feel the need to specify a feminist's gender. Is the opinion of a male feminist less valuable to you? Does his gender prevent him from earnestly believing in gender equality? I'm genuinely curious.

Anyway...

Yeah, Gigolo Mode sounds pretty moronic. It wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if I were a fan of his games, but I'm sure it would keep my eyes rolling throughout. No one really finds this shit funny anymore.

Fine, want me to clarify? I meant white knights. I'm sorry for the confusion, matey.

 

[dubq]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as trying to date Hostesses in the Yakuza games? Even that has a "mini game" where you answer one of their questions by looking at their face, hair, hands, breasts, etc, and if you choose correctly, she likes you more. Doesn't really sound like anything new as far as Japanese gaming goes.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Holy shit it's a fucking video game. I guess every time you try to seduce a fictional character it's rape, dehumanizing, sexist, objectionable, and some short of shaming.

We forget that context matters quite a bit, and I doubt Suda felt the need to be an ass like that. It's his vision, let him preform the way he wants.

Wait, nevermind. Fuck you freedom of speech. If I feel offended, even without doing any research or just cause (heh) then I have every right to not fuck off and instead spend time bitchin' about it!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Because the person I quoted was saying that both would lead to behavior that mimics what the medium portrays. That line of thought doesn't make much sense, since people are dissuaded from becoming serial murders like in every FPS because it's clearly against the law, whereas no such law exists that condemns the objectification of women. It's not hard to understand.

I don't think he was saying that at all... He was presenting a hypothetical scenario where that was the case and saying that it would be better for someone to mimic this shit than to go out and murder people. I'm pretty sure his point was just that it's ridiculous to make a fuss over things like this while ignoring the masses of games that allow for and even glorify mass killing and murder and other gratuitous violence.

 

[survivor]

Well, that does sound awful. Glad Matt Lees brought it up.

 

[Romars202129]

Matt Lees vagina is so butthurt!
Honestly though, I just think the mode is funny. I mean, what's offensive about it? It's obviously not supposed to be taken serious, it's a frickin mini game. If this was in a south park game or a GTA, you'd all be calling it hilarious.
And on that note, how about we tell GTA4 to fuck off into space, because of the hooker stuff. Who was that for? The original thing could be written off as a joke, but why was it so expanded upon in GTA4? Or let's talk about hot coffee in San Andreas?
It's ballsy to write of a japanese game with a small audience for misogyny, or presumed misogyny, but it's being 'worldy' to ignore it in big popular western games.
This whole thing is stupid.

[Oh wait, I just saw the whole thing, now I get it, this game can go fuck off into space! Women don't give you shit after one night stands! Except maybe an STD! Go fuck yourself SUDA, and crazy weirdo fantasies about dating! lol]

 

[Delusibeta]

I know, but I just want you to clarify why you feel the need to specify a feminist's gender. Is the opinion of a male feminist less valuable to you? Does his gender prevent him from earnestly believing in gender equality? I'm genuinely curious.

I suppose it's pretty much using the phrase "straight white male" to dismiss an argument, although I'd admit it's the first time I've seen someone dismiss a "yeah this is sexist" argument using that phrase. Normally it's used to dismiss "no this isn't sexist" arguments.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

I disagree. That's quite an extreme opinion you have.

So you don't actually aim to have any conversation, then? Troll away, good sir.

 

[Gbraga]

Eh. Not even. The Killer7 scene with Curtis and Pedro was more fucked up than this. This is just sort of quirky in comparison that plays to the character's interest in having James Bond-style fling, only turned up to eleven.

Wow, that was REALLY fucked up, I hated Killer7 the first time I played it, I guess I should try it again.

 

[MormaPope]

Discussion shouldn't be dismissed but people are barking up the wrong tree here. This IS exploitative, no question, but that's the point. It's trashy anime exploitation. Asking for anything more from this game is like asking for movies of the same ilk to not be exploitative, and objectify women/men as sex objects. It's tongue in cheek, it's ridiculous, it's cheap, it's B movie, it's dumb. This game doesn't mean the downfall of Suda 51 nor should it necessarily be a target for this feminist uprising we've seen in recent years. It's a niche title for a niche market that has just as much right as any other immature toned game to exist.

You want to argue woman's roles and how they're treated in games, go look at games trying to be even slightly serious but still objectify the female characters or dress them up in nonsensically sexual clothing. I'd love to see female characters treated with the same "respect" that male ones are, but Killer Is Dead is not the kind of game I'm going to take up arms against.

This right here.

 

[SousedLouse]

No. Just no at this whole reply. You can't say this is alright, not in the slightest. Even if it is "optional" the developer still went out of their way to put it in the damn game, making it clear that this is what they thought was right in terms of sexulasing the opposite sex and saying "hey this is fine!"

This is in no way a good thing for our industry, and I really hope we get out of these stupid design decisions that make gamers look like pigs and sexual criminals. Its absurd that anyone even thought this was a good idea, especially the whole looking at someone to make them like you? The hell? This doesn't happen at all in real life, and the notion that its fine to do so and you get rewarded for it is just...wow.

Where do you people keep getting authorial approval from? There's nothing to suggest that Suda or anyone involved in the game sees this sort of behavior as a good thing. Hell, there's nothing in the post you replied to that suggests that Astarte thinks that it's OK - he only acknowledged that it's an exaggeration of real life sleazy barhopping. It really just seems like your reaching, honestly. Actually, considering that the opinions of artists in the critique of their work's impact on society haven't been relevant in such a long time, I'm surprised that most people aren't arguing that it's harmful in spite of whether or not he approves of this stuff. I guess I can't afford to post via flowchart, either.

 

[PK Gaming]

Matt Lees's reaction is justified.

Gigolo mode is fucking awful. Satirical my ass, it's no different than creeper cam.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

But he is, and you're asking how can people defend it against this video, that's why.



HAHAHAHA WTF, how can people take this game seriously???

And damn, you met Troy Baker? He seems like the kind of person who smells nice.

That was weird.

Who is?

 

[Kandrick]

The hell is a "male feminist"? Answer is obvious, I know, but I just want you to clarify why you feel the need to specify a feminist's gender. Is the opinion of a male feminist less valuable to you? Does his gender prevent him from earnestly believing in gender equality? I'm genuinely curious.

Anyway...

Yeah, Gigolo Mode sounds pretty moronic. It wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if I were a fan of his games, but I'm sure it would keep my eyes rolling throughout. No one really finds this shit funny anymore.

I think it's pretty funny.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

Well, that wasn't the brightest video preview to grace our beloved internet.

 

[vulva]

So if RapeLay had x-ray glasses, would it be acceptable?

So you're convinced the only thing about this discussion is the x-ray glasses and not how they're just an example directly related to how this is all very different fantasy from reality?

 

[DC1]

I'll hold off any real judgements until I can actually see the part of the game for myself.

For now I think this guy is kind of making a big deal about nothing.

Win.

I've read the series of a Song of Ice and Fire to date.

I'm a self anointed genius

And

I love S51 games. The pre-review is full of reach and I hope no one takes.

 

[abadguy]

Whatever, buying it anyways.

Yup, day 1.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Need more to go on than "it's a bit creepy" before I get worked up.

As far as I can tell It's not promoting some view of killing women who look sexually active like some idealised version of jack the ripper. So it's a step forward for gaming I guess.

 

[Deified Data]

I think it's pretty funny.

Well, I suppose it's not up to me to dictate taste to others.

Fine, want me to clarify? I meant white knights. I'm sorry for the confusion, matey.

White Knights aren't feminists. They put women on pedestals, which is the exact opposite of feminism.

 

[RangerBAD]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as trying to date Hostesses in the Yakuza games? Even that has a "mini game" where you answer one of their questions by looking at their face, hair, hands, breasts, etc, and if you choose correctly, she likes you more. Doesn't really sound like anything new as far as Japanese gaming goes.

Pretty much, but in this the main character has glasses that can see through the women's clothes to their underwear.

 

[eorl]

Fallacious as fuck.

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

Also, even if this is just an extension of "exaggeration" of what really happens in bars - which I highly doubt considering the ones I go to don't have men staring at women's breasts the entire time - it really doesn't paint a nice picture. Why even do it really, is it just the shock value?

 

[ezekial45]

A part of me feels like this is just people getting caught up and riding on the bandwagon of the Sarkeesian video series. Because we haven't seen anywhere near of the knee-jerk and vocal reactions from people regarding sexism in games before those videos came out (which I enjoy, btw).

Where the hell where you guys back when Killer7 was released? Which should I remind you had a woman beating and raping a physically handicapped man, a serial killer that beheaded and stuffed his female victims, and female characters that were pretty sexualized for the sake of it.

Suda51 was never an auteur or whatever people wanted to call him in defense of the medium, so I find it a bit amusing when people are lashing out at him for making a side mission that is pretty tasteless, but ultimately harmless. Much like the rest of his games.

 

[LordJim]

I do find it funny the mode is named 'Male escort/prostitute' basically

 

[fabricated backlash]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

This coupled with your gore covered rendition of the villager as an avatar is just irony in it's best form.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah, there goes my purchase. It's not because I'm offended, it's because this isn't even funny, it's just stupid and weird. I liked No More Heroes because it was funny. Travis Touchdown is a creeper, but it works in No More Heroes because he's a loser, and it's funny to see the "hero" be one of those complete losers who ogles anime chick posters in his spare time.

Just being weird isn't enough. Suda 51 is good when there's genuine humor and the gameplay is acceptable (Which is one of the areas that they always seem to fuck up at).

I don't even see why people are defending this mode; it seems like just another pointlessly long minigame that is just dumb. I'm sure tilting the control stick and giving the object Simon Says style sounds really entertaining, right up there with mowing a lawn or picking up coconuts.

 

[Gbraga]

Who is?

Matt Lees. If you weren't talking about his video, my apologies.