Support NeoGAF

[Vice]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

An author's view and a character's view don't always line up. Someone can create a horrible monster of a person and still be a wonderful person.

With that said I have no idea how Suda 51 views women but to say his games represent his entire view on women is a bit silly when everything in his games seems to be some bizarre parody of reality.

 

[dubq]

I do find it funny the mode is named 'Male escort/prostitute' basically

Which is bizarre since he's the one giving the woman money. If it were true Gigolo mode, shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[Gun Animal]

 

[LordJim]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

'Everything that appears in the game is representative of the views and beliefs of creators and sponsors. EVERYTHING'
Yeah, nah.

 

[saveweyard]

Discussion shouldn't be dismissed but people are barking up the wrong tree here. This IS exploitative, no question, but that's the point. It's trashy anime exploitation. Asking for anything more from this game is like asking for movies of the same ilk to not be exploitative or objectify women/men as sex objects. It's tongue in cheek, it's ridiculous, it's cheap, it's B movie, it's dumb. This game doesn't mean the downfall of Suda 51 nor should it necessarily be a target for this feminist uprising we've seen in recent years. It's a niche title for a niche market that has just as much right as any other immature toned game to exist.

You want to argue woman's roles and how they're treated in games, go look at games trying to be even slightly serious but still objectify the female characters or dress them up in nonsensically sexual clothing. I'd love to see female characters treated with the same "respect" that male ones are, but Killer Is Dead is not the kind of game I'm going to take up arms against.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up my feelings as well. Most of Suda 51's games feel like poorly executed, way too heavy-handed satire. Although I thought the one redeeming quality of Lollipop Chainsaw was the portrayal of the high school jock. Nice role reversal, with him being completely helpless.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I don't think he was saying that at all... He was presenting a hypothetical scenario where that was the case and saying that it would be better for someone to mimic this shit than to go out and murder people. I'm pretty sure his point was just that it's ridiculous to make a fuss over things like this while ignoring the masses of games that allow for and even glorify mass killing and murder and other gratuitous violence.

But even in that case, you have a powerful law and societal understand that "killing is wrong". The problem with his scenario is that "treating women as objects is wrong" is nowhere near as ubiquitous of a sentiment as the former. Do I think it's silly the way our society puts sexuality on the same level as violence? Of course, but the scenario doesn't work.

 

[TheSpoiler]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

This is a perfect example.

This person has no idea if Suda actually thinks of women that way. This person has no idea if he's pushing a sexualized agenda on the world with his game.

But yet, through one campy mini-game in a game full of campiness, Suda is labeled as a sexist without pause. No real research. Just assumptions, and that really holds no water.

And honestly, going off the argument of what he thinks of women, you could flip the coin and see that the blondie girl saves Mondo's ass quite a bit and the younger lady is a necessity towards healing.

But then we'd get all into that Damsel In Distress bullshit and nobody wants that.

 

[Romars202129]

Discussion shouldn't be dismissed but people are barking up the wrong tree here. This IS exploitative, no question, but that's the point. It's trashy anime exploitation. Asking for anything more from this game is like asking for movies of the same ilk to not be exploitative or objectify women/men as sex objects. It's tongue in cheek, it's ridiculous, it's cheap, it's B movie, it's dumb. This game doesn't mean the downfall of Suda 51 nor should it necessarily be a target for this feminist uprising we've seen in recent years. It's a niche title for a niche market that has just as much right as any other immature toned game to exist.

You want to argue woman's roles and how they're treated in games, go look at games trying to be even slightly serious but still objectify the female characters or dress them up in nonsensically sexual clothing. I'd love to see female characters treated with the same "respect" that male ones are, but Killer Is Dead is not the kind of game I'm going to take up arms against.

We need to have a thumbs upping option here on Neogat, cause this is pretty much all that needs to be said on the subject.

 

[PK Gaming]

A part of me feels like this is just people getting caught up and riding on the bandwagon of the Sarkeesian video series. Because we haven't seen anywhere near of the knee-jerk and vocal reactions from people regarding sexism in games before those videos came out (which I enjoy, btw).

I don't see a problem with Anita starting the conversation for this kind of thing. People are finally starting to catch on and realize that the "status quo" isn't fine at all.

 

[Ratrat]

'well respected'? 'career dead'? Guy makes niche games for a certain audience. Yeah, it's pretty bad but is it that much worse than other games to garner this outrage? sounds like Fable.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

A part of me feels like this is just people getting caught up and riding on the bandwagon of the Sarkeesian video series. Because we haven't seen anywhere near of the knee-jerk and vocal reactions from people regarding sexism in games before those videos came out (which I enjoy, btw).

Where the hell where you guys back when Killer7 was released? Which should I remind you had a woman beating and raping a physically handicapped man, a serial killer that beheaded and stuffed his female victims, and female characters that were pretty sexualized for the sake of it.

Suda51 was never an auteur or whatever people wanted to call him in defense of the medium, so I find it a bit amusing when people are lashing out at him for making a side mission that is pretty tasteless, but ultimately harmless.

Definitely part of it. And at least now people are actually starting to have a conversation on it.

 

[BocoDragon]

With women climbing in the entertainment industry, not only video games, but movies, music videos, and artists are starting to have to cater to the criticism of their growing female audience. It's just the way the world is moving.

This is exactly why the heat should be taken off such niche releases like Suda's games.

More games are being made by females, and more games will made for females. Content that pleases these audiences will arise.... and it will turn out that criticizing niche Japanese macho content will have nothing at all to do with that struggle.

I understand that you are also just saying more women gamers = more criticism, in a simple cause and effect manner, which is fine and normal and I get it.

I suppose this industry is just small enough that people get the idea that these tiny Japanese releases are "representative of the industry" instead of this medium's version of Heavy Metal magazine. But it will grow, and soon it will seem silly to beat up on niche interests like Suda games.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

This coupled with your gore covered rendition of the villager as an avatar is just irony in it's best form.

You don't understand! It's so over the top and wacky that nobody is supposed to take it seriously!

 

[dubq]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

Is every fictional character that is written a representation of what an author thinks or believes about a given subject? Is Bret Easton Ellis really Patrick Bateman, chainsaw and all?

In case you needed help, the answer is NO.

 

[Nags]

Oh wait some of you are actually serious...

This is Suda we're talking about... uh, never seen his other work?

 

[Deified Data]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as trying to date Hostesses in the Yakuza games? Even that has a "mini game" where you answer one of their questions by looking at their face, hair, hands, breasts, etc, and if you choose correctly, she likes you more. Doesn't really sound like anything new as far as Japanese gaming goes.

I recall having to memorize their interests and personalities to woo them in Yakuza. I agree that reducing courtship to a trivial mini-game is sort of silly regardless of how you do it, but I wouldn't say there's any comparison to Gigolo Mode and Yakuza's hostesses.

 

[Gbraga]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

Also, even if this is just an extension of "exaggeration" of what really happens in bars - which I highly doubt considering the ones I go to don't have men staring at women's breasts the entire time - it really doesn't paint a nice picture. Why even do it really, is it just the shock value?

This is what bothers me. How the hell do you know that? It might be, sure, but there is no evidence AT ALL. It's a work of fiction, he's allowed to write whatever kind of character he wants. He could've made Mondo a cannibal who eats little children, that doesn't make Suda a cannibal who eats little children, this is ridiculous.

You can hate the game as much as you want for having this kind of stuff, but stop accusing authors of being their characters. Every serial killer novel writer is a serial killer? If you direct a movie where someone is raped, are you a rapist? That doesn't make any sense. It's even worse when Matt extends to the entire team, where some people might not even like what they're doing with the game, but it's a job like any other for those people.

 

[Kurod]

What kind of weak X-ray specs can't view beyond underwear?

 

[reptilescorpio]

Can you fail the mode? Like get slapped out of the game?

 

[NotLiquid]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

This is absolutely hilarious to read considering the entirety of the plot of the first No More Heroes was about the protagonist expecting to get laid by the female lead while she uses his otaku virgin desperation as a means to con the fuck out of him and mock him for being so stupid and pathetic.

 

[TheSpoiler]

This is exactly why the heat should be taken off such niche releases like Suda's games.

More games are being made by females, and more games will made for females. Content that pleases these audiences will arise.... and it will turn out that criticizing niche Japanese macho content will have nothing at all to do with that struggle.

I understand that you are also just saying more women gamers = more criticism, in a simple cause and effect manner, which is fine and normal and I get it.

I suppose this industry is just small enough that people get the idea that these tiny Japanese releases are "representative of the industry" instead of this medium's version of Heavy Metal magazine. But it will grow, and soon it will seem silly to beat up on niche interests like Suda games.

I'd love to add that while people get up in arms over some small title that's really not aiming to be hurtful at all, the ones that are purposefully being shitheads get away.

 

[Ikael]

Because the person I quoted was saying that both would lead to behavior that mimics what the medium portrays. That line of thought doesn't make much sense, since people are dissuaded from becoming serial murders like in every FPS because it's clearly against the law, whereas no such law exists that condemns the objectification of women. It's not hard to understand.

Yes, let's all pretend that if we go into a bar mimicking this Gigolo mode, then we are not going to be arrested accused of assault, public scandal nor molestation. That argument is fallacious and simply doesn't applies to this particular case. This game sexuality is as subtle as Duke Nukem's, and that's pretty much the point. And the whole "inducing criminal behaviour trought media exposure" is the cornerstone argument of every single censor known to man (and yet to be scientifically prooved, mind you).

Is this going to be a game like Catherine where you don't want anyone to walk in whilst you play it because there's what looks like a underage cartoon character with her tits out? Just need to know so I can lock the door in advance.

Since I am an adult, I couldn't give a jetpack propelled flying fuck about what other people thinks about the media that I consume. I didn't asked anyone's permission for reading The Boys or watching Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, thank you very much.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

But even in that case, you have a powerful law and societal understand that "killing is wrong". The problem with his scenario is that "treating women as objects is wrong" is nowhere near as ubiquitous of a sentiment as the former. Do I think it's silly the way our society puts sexuality on the same level as violence? Of course, but the scenario doesn't work.

But didn't you just say in your last post that it doesn't make much sense to assume that stuff done in video games will lead to mimicking behavior in real life?

Because the person I quoted was saying that both would lead to behavior that mimics what the medium portrays. That line of thought doesn't make much sense, since people are dissuaded from becoming serial murders like in every FPS because it's clearly against the law, whereas no such law exists that condemns the objectification of women. It's not hard to understand.

Am I misunderstanding what you meant? Are you actually saying that people are only dissuaded from murder because its against the law, but everything else they do in video games can potentially affect their behavior in real life (as long as it's legal)?

 

[MormaPope]

How so? They clearly thought this would be fine, that's why they made it. It represents what Suda51 thinks of women and sexualises them in a way that they are only good for the objective of getting sex. If this is the game industry "growing up" then it is quite a sad approach.

Real talk, I don't give a shit where this industry should go or where its supposed to go. I buy and support products that I enjoy and make me use my brain. More variety would be great, better storytelling and narrative in general would be great.

But as of now I'm perfectly fine with what this industry is artistically. Many others probably don't feel the same, so whatever. Sometimes something isn't for everybody, country music makes me bored to the point of comatose.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Let's play a game. Every time someone complains about 'male feminists' or mentions 'white knights' rather than accept that something they might like could possibly have some sexist connotations, take a drink.

Maybe ten drinks are necessary when people start getting confused on the issue entirely and think the people who are complaining about sexism are puritans who hate women being able to look sexy or something.

 

[Karkador]

Sorry.

Either games are art or they aren't. Let's make up our minds on this here and now.

Because if they are, they aren't subject to PC and complaints such as these. It's the directors vision and whether you wanna partake in his vision (i.e. purchasing the game).

If they aren't art, then they do indeed need to be PC and this entire discussion has merit.

So which is it everyone?

art is absolutely subject to criticism, it's not "political correctness and complaints" just because you don't care for the criticism. "art" is not some protected class of expression that can't be touched.

 

[SousedLouse]

This is some bullshit, there's no way Kojima's David.

 

[dubq]

I recall having to memorize their interests and personalities to woo them in Yakuza. I agree that reducing courtship to a trivial mini-game is sort of silly regardless of how you do it, but I wouldn't say there's any comparison to Gigolo Mode and Yakuza's hostesses.

You oogle their tits. You give them gifts. You can even take them on dates to play ping pong, and aim the ball to hit their tits so that they miss their shot, thus giving you a chance to zoom in on said tits and oogle some more. Outside of the x-ray specs, it's essentially the same thing.

 

[ezekial45]

I don't see a problem with Anita starting the conversation. People are finally starting to catch on and realize that the "status quo" isn't fine.

I don't either, but I do have problems with the fact that people are suddenly trying to be feminist or vocal about sexism while focusing on single elements in upcoming games, when previous games before were guilty of it as well.

Much like this situation here.

 

[Seik]

I'm going to play this game before calling it a disaster

Word.

 

[Himself]

This is what bothers me. How the hell do you know that? It might be, sure, but there is no evidence AT ALL. It's a work of fiction, he's allowed to write whatever kind of character he wants. He could've made Mondo a cannibal who eats little children, that doesn't make Suda a cannibal who eats little children, this is ridiculous.

You can hate the game as much as you want for having this kind of stuff, but stop accusing authors of being their characters. Every serial killer novel writer is a serial killer? If you direct a movie where someone is raped, are you a rapist? That doesn't make any sense. It's even worse when Matt extends to the entire team, where some people might not even like what they're doing with the game, but it's a job like any other for those people.

Exactamundo.

Oh, and some folks need learn to have some fun.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

you say that and go on to describe how it is satire man

The main character is fucking pathetic, and this is his idea of being a badass. Creeping on girls in a club. It's ridiculous, and the fact that you seem to disagree even moreso.

Apart from in this context that's clearly the badass thing to do given he gets what he wants at the end? Though maybe it's just me, I don't see the value of an attempt at satire that does nothing other than promote the thing it's targeting. Maybe there's some hugely witty payoff in the end, I'm just not seeing it with how they're marketing this right now.

 

[Tomat]

Too much hyperbole up in this.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't even see why people are defending this mode; it seems like just another pointlessly long minigame that is just dumb.

I bristle at the urge to censor/ban/change* more than I love the idea of the mode itself.

*I know they're just putting their criticism out there, and aren't the government. But they are implying "this shouldn't exist"... when I think it is just fine for it to exist, for the audience that wants it. I want all audiences to be served, including women and all subgroups thereof.

 

[Alienous]

This is a perfect example.

This person has no idea if Suda actually thinks of women that way. This person has no idea if he's pushing a sexualized agenda on the world with his game.

But yet, through one campy mini-game in a game full of campiness, Suda is labeled as a sexist without pause. No real research. Just assumptions, and that really holds no water.

And honestly, going off the argument of what he thinks of women, you could flip the coin and see that the blondie girl saves Mondo's ass quite a bit and the younger lady is a necessity towards healing.

But then we'd get all into that Damsel In Distress bullshit and nobody wants that.

I don't understand how it could be seen as sexist just against females.

The idea that a guy (a killer, badass-assassin as it happens) is reduced to fawning, pathetically ogling whilst an 'ideal' woman isn't looking, isn't flattering to males.

The 'sexism' label is used too often.

In general, I find it difficult to view the mini-game as anything other than a silly parody of dating.

 

[Knux-Future]

You know I was surprised this game avoided the whole witch hunt as long as it did.

Look I get it..I really do. People want better roles for females in gaming. Both in games and behind games.

But they almost constantly attack the wrong shit. This is satire. Suda is almost never serious. And hell this is consistent and not even the most "sexist" thing he's done.

I really wish people would stop attacking niche ass Japanese games for some misguided crusade for equality.

It ironically...destroys any equality by censoring the creators creativity.

This is harmless

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Oh wait some of you are actually serious...

This is Suda we're talking about... uh, never seen his other work?

Despite my own discomfort with this single mode, yes, I don't understand why people are somehow now outraged about a work of Suda51. This is what he does. He's a niche dev, who makes weird games for his audience. Has no one seen Lollipop Chainsaw? Genuine question: Was there a huge outrage on Gaf when this game came out? Now if this was a hugely marketed Ubisoft IP with this kind of content and massive exposure, that would be a little troubling, but that's clearly not the case.

 

[Visualante2]

Lost in translation

I doubt the game would have sold very well anyway.

Genuine question: Was there a huge outrage on Gaf when this game came out? Now if this was a huge Ubisoft IP with this kind of content, that would be a little troubling, but that's clearly not the case.

Probably in the thread where the cosplayer got kicked out of PAX

 

[TheSpoiler]

Let's play a game. Every time someone complains about 'male feminists' or mentions 'white knights' rather than accept that something they might like could possibly have some sexist connotations, take a drink.

Maybe ten drinks are necessary when people start getting confused on the issue entirely and think the people who are complaining about sexism are puritans who hate women being able to look sexy or something.

Let's play a game. Every time someone tries to shut out the other side without any explanation in a "hilarious" attempt to be passive aggressive, take a drink.

Maybe ten if the person has not added to the conversation in any decent way or form.

 

[Astarte]

White Knights aren't feminists. They put women on pedestals, which is the exact opposite of feminism.

White knights and feminism CAN go hand in hand. I recall my brother trying to argue for the side of feminism, when feminists called him a "feminist poser white knight faggot". It's all down to interpretation.

 

[dubq]

Between this thread and the PS4 RAM thread, it's been quite a day, GAF. Just.. Just..

 

[Ingueferroque]

This guy is extremely annoying.
Why does he even get bothered by it? It's a Suda game.. not some educational tool for young men on how to approach women, the main goal of the game is... shooting people in the face.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Maybe ten drinks are necessary when people start getting confused on the issue entirely and think the people who are complaining about sexism are puritans who hate women being able to look sexy or something.

Do you think that club going women are perpetuating in sexism by letting themselves be picked up by dudes in clubs? Because that's all that's happening in the game. Saying that women shouldn't be going to clubs is puritanical.

 

[BocoDragon]

I also say this: women, get thee into a game programming class and make what you want to make. As I said on a previous page, more than half the students in my game programming class are women. No excuses: join that coming wave.

And male designers, if you agree with the criticism of this game... make the progressive game you want to make. Please. The big studios want inclusive games that grow the audience.

Add to the world of art. We don't need to subtract from it.

 

[Riposte]

I find it a little weird how much how a show he makes out of saying he doesn't respect Suda51. Almost like he is trying to elevate his status in the process. That being said, I don't think Suda is all that special to begin with. At least in whatever capacity he is making games now. These days I'm rarely excited for his games, although they always seem to have a hook that gets me looking in their direction. In this case it is the art style. I don't think this game will be much good though.

As for the mode itself, I don't think you should treat it as anything more than it is. It is just a pervy toy which relishes in its own pervertedness to the point of being outrageously humorous (if one's palate can contain it). Trying to say it is satire or something insidious seems like a waste of effort on either part. The game isn't interested in appeasing to whoever may not be into that, even if that means most women. It is exactly what it says on the tin and somehow fits in this awkwardly old-fashion James Bond on the moon world of Suda51 nonsense. Personally, I think it is unappealing and it does nothing for me - just seems like a short-lived novelty, if that (not unlike the pervy dating elements of the Yakuza series). If you want to call it porn, then you can call it porn and move on to more relevant and common stuff, unless you plan on waging a war against porn.

The thread seems to be quite a war zone over this though.

 

[Christhor]

Seems like I'm buying this game entirely because of the online debacle. The exact same reason I bought Lollipop Chainsaw. This game was barely even on my radar until now, gotta support creative freedom.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Let's play a game. Every time someone tries to shut out the other side without any explanation in a "hilarious" attempt to be passive aggressive, take a drink.

Maybe ten if the person has not added to the conversation in any decent way or form.

I don't really think there's any need to 'explain' what's wrong with people who rant against feminists or try to paint any man who objects to sexism as a 'white knight'. I've had my fill with trying to argue with the anti-feminism brigade who are simply unwilling to accept that sexism exists or that any man could actually be angry about it and not just trying to win points.

Do you think that club going women are perpetuating in sexism by letting themselves be picked up by dudes in clubs?

I think those women have a right to choose how to live their life. If they enjoy going to clubs and hooking up with guys, then more power to them. I don't have any right to judge or justify their life choices.

 

[Alienous]

I actually face palmed at this moment.

It was going to be a full boob shot, but that was deemed too sexualised.

You got off easy.

 

[Karkador]

White knights and feminism CAN go hand in hand. I recall my brother trying to argue for the side of feminism, when feminists called him a "feminist poser white knight faggot". It's all down to interpretation.

between this and you thinking people pick each other up at bars like in Gigolo Mode, i have a feeling you're not living in the same world as the rest of us

 

[dimb]

This guy is extremely annoying.

He certainly has a schtick.