There's no indication yet that PS4 locks part of its GPU power away. RAM and CPU portions being locked away is expected by both because of the OS, it's just a question of how much. But now we see that MS is locking the GPU away too and it will be given to devs eventually. That means people working on it now don't have it, that's why this is bad news. It means right now the XB1 is even weaker than it's supposed to be compared to PS4.
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Digital Foundry: Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers
- Thread starter DaSorcerer7
- Start date
There's no indication yet that PS4 locks part of its GPU power away. RAM and CPU portions being locked away is expected by both because of the OS, it's just a question of how much. But now we see that MS is locking the GPU away too and it will be given to devs eventually. That means people working on it now don't have it, that's why this is bad news. It means right now the XB1 is even weaker than it's supposed to be compared to PS4.
FeiRR
Banned
Removing the requirement to reserve that 10% of resources for apps would mean those apps won't run. Tell me if I'm wrong but basically everything outside of a game is an app:
- Skype
- streaming apps
- game DVR app
- browser
- matchmaking app
- football apps
- music app
- live TV feed
Those things would stop working in-game if they did that. Of course they can't remove all resources. The Supervisor needs to be running with a basic version of the system (friends/messaging isn't an app, I think?). But this would make X1 even less multitasking than 360 is today.
- Skype
- streaming apps
- game DVR app
- browser
- matchmaking app
- football apps
- music app
- live TV feed
Those things would stop working in-game if they did that. Of course they can't remove all resources. The Supervisor needs to be running with a basic version of the system (friends/messaging isn't an app, I think?). But this would make X1 even less multitasking than 360 is today.
MS is also using GPGPU for Kinect skeletal processing all the time as well, it isn't being reserved just for the snap mode.
silver.tongue
Member
Yet another confirmation that this console is absolutelly not ready and should not launch this november. If MS could, they would release this mid 2014 I bet.
That said, more power is more power. This is a good thing down the road.
That said, more power is more power. This is a good thing down the road.
BloodMoney
Banned
.....soooooo, they are going to phase out Kinect 2 so that they have the extra GPU resources to compete with the PS4?
How did you get that assumption? I see 95% negativity towards the article and maybe 5% saying its good news lol. I guess people see what they wanna see.
Sword Of Doom
Member
So what they're saying is they're not using 100% of the crappy hardware they have for games and maybe someday they will. So nothing is changing. It's still the same hardware as before, except now we know that 10% of the GPU is dedicated to OS
ah, so even if they'd analysed apps and they weren't using that much, they couldn't give it all back?
I guess they can free up some of that kinect resource if a game isn't using motion tracking?
anyway, this isn't 'positive' news, its 'less negative' news. The 1.31 vs 1.84 comparisons did not take into account the 10% reservation because I think it was still considered a rumour. This effectively validates that rumour so it is really 1.18 vs 1.84, with the chance of that 1.18 moving up a bit at some point in the future.
gundamkyoukai
Member
He is a dev so i take his word much better than RL who seem to just do PR for MS these days .
Edit plus this happen every gen with the console makers giving back power to the devs .
sechsterangriff
Member
Usually we only hear about the memory footprint being reduced. This is about actually freeing up GPU resources that are currently reserved for the OS.
AdmiralPain
Banned
Wait, so people really, actually believe that the PS4 devotes zero GPU resources to non-gaming stuff? At an age where even smart phones use GPU accelerated UI?
Phasing out Kinect2 to gain a few percents of the GPU when they need dozens to compete would be silly.
What about the 15min DVR? Oh, I think it runs through Gaikai
slicedmass
Banned
Because people are looking at it as if what we have seen now can be boosted by 10% when the resources are free'd up, honestly only a die hard fanboy would see this as positive.
edit:
built in encoder/decoder for that. the only issue is the memory usage it will require to store the 15mins of video.
chancellor
Member
Any specs news that I read always makes the Xbox One look bad no matter how they try to spin it. Microsoft should really focus on aspects of their console which they can arguably say are better than the PS4 rather than discussing specs.
Exactly my thoughts while reading this article.
lol, I agree.
Cerebral Assassin
Member
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
PS4 will jump out to a 2:1 install base advantage by March 2014 (worldwide) and that will prompt Microsoft to release a Kinect-less SKU bundle at $399 with a pack-in game and 6 months of XBL. The $499 SKU will remain but will probably also be packed in with 6 months of XBL and maybe a cheaper game like Kinect Sports.
Exactly what I was thinking. Not surprised it was written by Leadbetter again.
Comparing smartphones to gaming consoles is not a good idea. Mobile hardware in general is much different.
You don't need to reserve more than 0.01%* GPU time to display the occasional trophy/friendlist popup in the corner of the screen. PS4 doesn't have Snap, Kinect etc., which is what this reserve is for according to the article.
That's why everyone assumes the amount of reserved resources on PS4 will be negligible.
* Source: my ass.
The key part of your post is 'GPU accelerated UI'. When playing a game fullscreen, the OS is taking up none of the screen. so nothing to GPU accelerate
Background tasks like custom audio, cross game chat and game DVR type stuff are handled by either the CPU or the dedicated hardware for video compression.
Obviously ram is used (quite a lot it seems) but that is separate from actual GPU resources.
Why is that difficult to comprehend?
Dedicated video encoding chip.
I thought we weren't allowed to make 'first post' posts.
It isn't even news really. I believe there are gestures that can be used at an OS level even while playing games. I seem to recall a presenter making a motion with both hands that brought up the dash. That is using GPGPU. So whether a game is using it or not, Kinect is sitting there doing its thing. Another reason they did it that way is because if Kinect is always doing its thing, that input is always there for devs to use so they might as well use it. Their algorithms could get better over time and Kinect could use less resources so that is one way they could also give some of the resources back to games. Plus, they mentioned being conservative with their 10% allotment.
Background apps just need CPU to run. There are 2 cores reserved for that stuff if I recall correctly.
Red Mage
Member
What war? MS brought all of this grief upon themselves. Same with Sony during the PS3 era.
Crimson_Fate
Member
Kind of...Basically they are saying that instead of reserving the 10% GPU for the OS apps
they are going to move to a more Priority based usage. So as long as the GPU is not being used the oS can use it and if the game is using it then the OS will refresh less odten.
They still may need to reserve something to make sure the OS is responsive.
i am not sure what you are hinting at, but do you want me to show you my amazon pre orders brother ?
Have there been any instances in the past where consoles have reserved significant GPU resources for the OS in addition to the usual CPU reserve?
Well on the upside - this article makes it really easy to tell which posters possess basic reading comprehension and deduction skills and which do not :-D
killatopak
Member
Hardware architectures of both current gen systems were vastly different from each other as such it cannot be compared accurately. Also, the exotic architecture of the PS3 hindered 3rd party devs from displaying the full potential of the console. Only first party devs were able to squeeze out the potential of the console as show in the latest 1st party games Last of Us, GOW: Ascension, Gran Turismo 6 and Beyond Two Souls.
I advise you to not spout this argument again especially your second paragraph because a lot of people were banned from using the same words to hide the preference and shilling on one console.
Whiteshirt
Member
Why would it? The OS can devote the vast majority of GPU resources to whatever the active application is as it does not have a Snap feature where a game is running alongside active hardware accelerated content.
Does the PS4 use the GPU to accelerate GUI? Yes. Does it run two active hardware accelerated applications concurrently? No, as far as I can tell it does not and if it does, it won't be as extreme as what Microsoft is proposing to do with the Snap feature.
JonathanPower
Member
Actually, the rumored spec is 6GB.
http://gaminglately.com/playstation...ined-flexible-if-devs-working-closely-w-sony/
It was also rumored that PS4 reserves less than 1 core for the OS.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47871129&postcount=1620
It's closer to wiiU clone to be honest
I think the thing that confuses me the most: Why did Microsoft utilize a weaker GPU if they expected to reserve a portion for OS functions? Seems you would want MORE headroom, not less.
I would almost bet on the fact they expected Sony to go with reduced hardware given the PS3 fiasco and the companies financial situation. Only they didn't.
Or the X1 had to be produced within a budget, where Kinect was a fixed cost and all other components were added until they hit their price ceiling and still remained profitable day one.
Who the hell knows really. As an OG Xbox fan, it's a little disappointing, but financially I can understand from a business perspective.
I would almost bet on the fact they expected Sony to go with reduced hardware given the PS3 fiasco and the companies financial situation. Only they didn't.
Or the X1 had to be produced within a budget, where Kinect was a fixed cost and all other components were added until they hit their price ceiling and still remained profitable day one.
Who the hell knows really. As an OG Xbox fan, it's a little disappointing, but financially I can understand from a business perspective.
Pretty much. DF threads need a Leadbetter disclaimer nowadays; I really don't wanna give the guy any clicks.
And before folks jump down my throat, I have nothing against MS releasing PRs, transparent as their purpose may be; It's simply sad that Leadbetter has essentially allowed DF to turn into an indirect MS PR delivery service, so they can obfuscate that it's simply a means for MS reps to get their word out, under the guise of professional journalism.
To be frank, it's a canned defensive line that has pretty much lost meaning.
Chaostar
Member
Wouldn't that lead to slowdown of the Os when playing a game, much like the XMB on PS3?
DrGonzo615
Banned
I'd say this is good news but all these changes make Microsoft look like they are trying to play catch up.
Trying to chase the graphics white rabbit is the wrong move for them; they should be focusing on what their console does right and not all this BS about "balance" and unlocking more of the GPU.
The XB1 graphical power difference isn't going to be its main problem...that is going to be that extra $100. Come Christmas time its going to be a hard sell when people can buy bundles of the PS4 that come with a game and a year subscription to the online service (which gives you more games) for the price of just an XB1 with nothing to play. I'd say that's a much better place to work on then "OUR STICK IS ALMOST AS BIG AS SONY'S!"
Trying to chase the graphics white rabbit is the wrong move for them; they should be focusing on what their console does right and not all this BS about "balance" and unlocking more of the GPU.
The XB1 graphical power difference isn't going to be its main problem...that is going to be that extra $100. Come Christmas time its going to be a hard sell when people can buy bundles of the PS4 that come with a game and a year subscription to the online service (which gives you more games) for the price of just an XB1 with nothing to play. I'd say that's a much better place to work on then "OUR STICK IS ALMOST AS BIG AS SONY'S!"
Windom Earle
Member
So 10% reservation (for now) is confirmed. No surprise devs are struggling with this box.
Really though, all this talk about power is coming from MS themselves, they keep bringing the issue into the limelight. If they would just stop bringing it up or responding to loaded questions then people could focus on the games. I cant understand why they cant just shift the topic to the games and keep mum on all these insignificant changes. The average adult gamer is too well informed to believe that these things will have a impact on the overall difference (and if they don't, reading these kind of threads will paint the picture for them). The only real problem with MS is their PR is not up to par. They have made blunder after blunder and have failed to justify the price to the hardcore gamer. I don't think they have a clue on how to market it after the 180's. I agree that both will end up having good games, and even if the x1 doesn't meet sales expectations, they can still turn it around like the PS3 (the console isn't even out yet),but if they want to succeed in the short term, they need a new strategy.
LiquidSolid
Member
That's not how multitasking works.
no space. APU is full of ESRAM. It's a bigger and more expensive to produce chip than the PS4 I think. It all cascades down from wanting lots of ram. Whereas sony went with GDDR knowing they might only have 4GB (even though early kits apparantly had 2GB, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have been enough for Sony and they were confident they could go to 4GB. 8GB was the stretch)
phosphor112
Banned
That's pretty damning.
I wonder if people will realize that the boolean "AND" being there really makes this statement stand out.