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[RoboPlato]

I have to ask, has Neogaf had a confirmed incident where people were making accounts just to try and muddy the water and the general message on this boards? It seems a lot of people suspect of "astroturfing" (first time I've heard it in this context) and it seems crazy for a company to do that in any official capacity.

The mods have been tracking email addresses used for registering and a lot of them are from marketing companies linked to Microsoft. Many of them seem to be posting from scripts as well.

 

[Piggus]

I have to ask, has Neogaf had a confirmed incident where people were making accounts just to try and muddy the water and the general message on this boards? It seems a lot of people suspect of "astroturfing" (first time I've heard it in this context) and it seems crazy for a company to do that in any official capacity.

Official? Of course not. But it does happen, and apparently the number of MS shills Bish has banned is significantly higher than those associated with Sony or Nintendo. Which really isn't surprising.

 

[KidBeta]

The Xbox One, as per all publicly available information, has a number of dedicated hardware units that I see devs getting better at making use of for their specific purposes over time. This isn't about secret sauce bs, which I'm pretty sure is where trolls want to take this one.

-- The 3 display planes, 2 of which I think are available to devs. They seem pretty helpful for dynamic resolutions and could possibly have interesting uses for LOD purpose.

-- The 4 move engines, 2 of which comes with hardware specifically designed for LZ decompression and compression. Beyond that they seem pretty crucial for better leveraging the system's ESRAM and saving bandwidth wherever possible, so this seems like one of the more obvious aspects of the Xbox One that devs will possibly become better at making use of as they get more experience with the system. 3 of these are directly available to developers, whereas one is reserved for use by the system and appears automatically managed through Direct3D helping with specific game operations.

-- The SHAPE audio block, something devs have full access to, is another thing I can see devs using better with time, especially since it can help by offloading from the CPU some processing requirements as it pertains to audio. The LZ compression and decompression hardware on the move engines are also something that can help the CPU.

So no matter how you look at it, this is a fair bit of dedicated hardware that's directly under the control of game developers. Common sense suggests that developers will become smarter about how they use these things over the life of the Xbox One. To think otherwise would be ludicrous, and this in no way suggests a belief in magical, secret sauce hardware. Fact is they're all in there and available to developers for a reason. Expecting Xbox One developers to have a full grasp on how best to use all of this on day one would be like expecting PS4 developers to make full use of the PS4's 8 ACEs and all that potential for Compute on day one. Beyond the customizations available on both machines, devs won't even have it all figured out on the best way to take advantage of the CPU, GPU and memory system of each machine. It just so happens that on the Xbox One in particular, one of the main customizations of the hardware seems especially crucial to getting the most out of the memory system. PS4 devs obviously have far less of a challenge in that regard, but it's a challenge that I think Xbox One devs will manage to easily come to grips with.




I'm reminded of why threads like these tend to be cesspools. It's like watching Fox News. Anyone with any sense knows that isn't the Xbox One version of the game. That shit looks just about passable for current gen based on those shots. Even GTA V on 360 and PS3 has superior looking water. Anyway, last post in this thread. It has dissolved into blatantly misleading comparisons.

The display planes are nice and can be used to render a HUD at a higher resolution then the games native resolution, but aside from that I don't really see it having a large amount of uses, people seem to think that they will be used to render a part of the screen in a higher resolution then the rest. But it would be appear to me (and my limited understanding of graphics and graphics engines) that this not a good idea, the first (and at the moment, only) issue which I can see with doing this. Is that you'll end up with jarring seams with regards to texture filtering as, there is a chance you'll sample a higher mipmap of a given texture for the higher resolution area (due to it having multiple pixels for the same texture area). Furthermore, its interesting that Ryse isn't using them to upscale the game, which is interesting from a tech perspective.

The move engines are nothing special, the best thing Microsoft did was talk about these when they are little more then DMA engines (which, hint, GCN already has 2 DMA engines per video cards). The LZ encode and decode aren't bad, but the PS4 has something comparable( if not the same) so this will not really bring a big advantage. Also the move engines do not save bandwidth what they do is move data without the interaction of the CPU/GPU this doesn't mean the movement is free it just means it happens without using up CPU/GPU cycles.

The one reserved by DX is there to do behind the scenes DX stuff that needs to happen (or should) transparently to the dev.

SHAPE is a clear win, worth ~1 core at full pelt for all effects.

The main problem I see with you saying that there is a fair amount of dedicated hardware is that a large amount of it isn't going to make much of a difference (if any) such as the display planes, or is there only because it needs to be to leverage the system well (move engines) and as such isn't a perf advantage over the PS4 but moreso a necessity on the XBONE.

SHAPE you can't argue about though.

 

[Jabba]

Neri had to light a candle for MichaelC.

 

[soapinmouth]

God I hate that tin-foilhatters like you guys are trying so hard to hold technology back so agent Smith didn't find out how often you call your mom. It's like the new age version of Christians in the dark ages.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

God I hate that tin-foilhatters like you guys are trying so hard to hold technology back so agent Smith didn't find out how often you call your mom. It's like the new age version of Christians in the dark ages.

Off to a great start on NeoGAF. Just a tip, getting banned as a junior is permanent. So you may want to chill out until you get your wings.

 

[DragonNC]

Parity confirmed. In the future. Which is when this will be beta tested. -.-

Wouldn't this mess with the Kinect and snap mode features that are using that extra GPU power? Since unlocking 10% won't get them to match the PlayStation anyway, I hope they don't nerf unique features chasing that goal.

Well games what dont use kinect at all dont need that 10% power

 

[BigDug13]

A minority of early adopters, considering that if Microsoft is forced to drop Kinect it will be because people will send the clear message that they're not interested in it and would prefer a lower price.
So I'm really not seeing this as a problem. Microsoft is of course backing Kinect but not at the cost of the success of the whole platform. Just like they did with their DRM strategy. With Kinect the interests and investements are much bigger so they're not gonna react until they're proven to be wrong by the numbers (but internally they are surely preparing themselves for such outcome, they would be fool not to).

So pissing off their biggest supporters to try to appease the more casual and lower attach-rate crowd is a good thing and will somehow beat the clear and consistent message of their competitor?

This isn't like buying a first generation HD-DVD player which ends up as obsolete technology. Nobody is walking into an XBO purchase with the mentality that Microsoft might pull the Kinect rug out from under them.

 

[KidBeta]

Well games what dont use kinect at all dont need that 10% power

Isn't there OS level interaction that (can)requires the use of Kinect?.

 

[DBT85]

God I hate that tin-foilhatters like you guys are trying so hard to hold technology back so agent Smith didn't find out how often you call your mom. It's like the new age version of Christians in the dark ages.

Welcome to neogaf, it appears you have spelt foot wrong in your username.

 

[SwiftDeath]

I have to ask, has Neogaf had a confirmed incident where people were making accounts just to try and muddy the water and the general message on this boards? It seems a lot of people suspect of "astroturfing" (first time I've heard it in this context) and it seems crazy for a company to do that in any official capacity.

Yeah no

All big companies will participate in what industries will term "reputation management" what is commonly referred to as "astroturfing"

Microsoft has been caught at it before but so has Samsung and several other big corps

It takes many forms one of which is forum posting

There are 3rd party "marketing" companies that specialize in astroturfing and I'm sure MS has hired several specifically for the XB1

Sony likely has less simply because it doesn't need them

Edit: I just found this terrible site that covers the basics

I don't think mods will mind it as I'm certainly not trying to advertise or endorse their services

http://www.brand.com/?source=Google&subid=1F&gclid=CM2Vk_qf_7kCFWFBQgodr1kABA

In basic terms, online reputation management (ORM) is the practice of giving people and businesses full control over their online search results. As the internet grows and technology progresses, protecting your good name may feel like a daunting task. To combat negative press, rip off reports, social media attacks,forum posts and other negative search results pertaining to your name or business, you need a leader in online reputation management with time-tested results.

Edit 2: Just found a list of the top 50 reputation management companies

http://reputation-management-services.topseosrankings.com/#

Something I find funny?

You can commend or report the company to increase its stance

But the company literally exists to manage companies online reputations

Doesn't seem like a good system

 

[coolasj19]

Welcome to neogaf, it appears you have spelt foot wrong in your username.

Goddamn that's clever. Has any good information I need to read come out of this thread? It's hard keeping up sometimes.

 

[mrklaw]

The display planes are nice and can be used to render a HUD at a higher resolution then the games native resolution, but aside from that I don't really see it having a large amount of uses, people seem to think that they will be used to render a part of the screen in a higher resolution then the rest. But it would be appear to me (and my limited understanding of graphics and graphics engines) that this not a good idea, the first (and at the moment, only) issue which I can see with doing this. Is that you'll end up with jarring seams with regards to texture filtering as, there is a chance you'll sample a higher mipmap of a given texture for the higher resolution area (due to it having multiple pixels for the same texture area). Furthermore, its interesting that Ryse isn't using them to upscale the game, which is interesting from a tech perspective.

The move engines are nothing special, the best thing Microsoft did was talk about these when they are little more then DMA engines (which, hint, GCN already has 2 DMA engines per video cards). The LZ encode and decode aren't bad, but the PS4 has something comparable( if not the same) so this will not really bring a big advantage. Also the move engines do not save bandwidth what they do is move data without the interaction of the CPU/GPU this doesn't mean the movement is free it just means it happens without using up CPU/GPU cycles.

The one reserved by DX is there to do behind the scenes DX stuff that needs to happen (or should) transparently to the dev.

SHAPE is a clear win, worth ~1 core at full pelt for all effects.

The main problem I see with you saying that there is a fair amount of dedicated hardware is that a large amount of it isn't going to make much of a difference (if any) such as the display planes, or is there only because it needs to be to leverage the system well (move engines) and as such isn't a perf advantage over the PS4 but moreso a necessity on the XBONE.

SHAPE you can't argue about though.

Thanks,interesting info. I didn't realise SHAPE was such a clear win. So it looks like the PS4 audio support is limited purely to decompression of mp3 streams, and devs are still responsible for mixing and adding any effects - something hat SHAPE would do for free in Xbox?

The display planes are interesting. When you look at something like watchdogs or the division, where the HUD is partly absorbed into the game world, that'd be less able to use display planes, right? They'd literally be for simple overlays

 

[KidBeta]

Thanks,interesting info. I didn't realise SHAPE was such a clear win. So it looks like the PS4 audio support is limited purely to decompression of mp3 streams, and devs are still responsible for mixing and adding any effects - something hat SHAPE would do for free in Xbox?

The display planes are interesting. When you look at something like watchdogs or the division, where the HUD is partly absorbed into the game world, that'd be less able to use display planes, right? They'd literally be for simple overlays

If SHAPE does what you want to do, then you can use it (and it will a lot of the time), and it looks like the PS4 audio chip is purely decompression yeah.

I won't comment on hud elements embedded into game worlds as I don't know enough to give a good answer without stretching my knowledge further then I would like to.

 

[vcc]

Thanks,interesting info. I didn't realise SHAPE was such a clear win. So it looks like the PS4 audio support is limited purely to decompression of mp3 streams, and devs are still responsible for mixing and adding any effects - something hat SHAPE would do for free in Xbox?

The display planes are interesting. When you look at something like watchdogs or the division, where the HUD is partly absorbed into the game world, that'd be less able to use display planes, right? They'd literally be for simple overlays

According to MS devs the SHAPE audio block and the 'other one' are mostly kinect. For games they will be doing the wonderful job of coding and decoding and maybe a little bit more. Shape is there to make kinect voice commands nearly free and that's about it, it seems.

The 3 panes (XBO) versus 2 (PS4) is simply for the snap feature. Both of them will render the HUD separately from the scene. The XBO will render another area that has what ever snap apps are running as well. At the expense of about 10% of the GPU power. According to their DF interview.

 

[DBT85]

Has anyone else noticed that misterxmedia, when said aloud, can easily sound like misdirects media?

 

[KidBeta]

According to MS devs the SHAPE audio block and the 'other one' are mostly kinect. For games they will be doing the wonderful job of coding and decoding and maybe a little bit more. Shape is there to make kinect voice commands nearly free and that's about it, it seems.

The 3 panes (XBO) versus 2 (PS4) is simply for the snap feature. Both of them will render the HUD separately from the scene. The XBO will render another area that has what ever snap apps are running as well. At the expense of about 10% of the GPU power. According to their DF interview.

You are confusing the SHAPE Audio block to the rest of the audio functionality in there. the SHAPE block is entirely for games / apps, whilst there is a bunch of other stuff in there for Kinect voice processing and other Kinect tasks.

 

[vcc]

You are confusing the SHAPE Audio block to the rest of the audio functionality in there. the SHAPE block is entirely for games / apps, whilst there is a bunch of other stuff in there for Kinect voice processing and other Kinect tasks.

Perhaps. I can't find the interview at the moment and the person may have misspoke. I'm a little skeptical that a sound chip will make much of a difference either way. Kinect is probably where more hardware would help CPU performance most. Normal mixing shouldn't be all than intensive and 'ray casting' audio isn't possible unless there is some SHAPE audio chip to main memory bus no one has pointed out.

 

[KidBeta]

Perhaps. I can't find the interview at the moment and the person may have misspoke. I'm a little skeptical that a sound chip will make much of a difference either way. Kinect is probably where more hardware would help CPU performance most. Normal mixing shouldn't be all than intensive and 'ray casting' audio isn't possible unless there is some SHAPE audio chip to main memory bus no one has pointed out.

its ~ 1 core of the Jaguar CPU (a little more) worth at full pelt for everything. Its not that unbelievable its just for mixing / reverbs / etc.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Perhaps. I can't find the interview at the moment and the person may have misspoke. I'm a little skeptical that a sound chip will make much of a difference either way. Kinect is probably where more hardware would help CPU performance most. Normal mixing shouldn't be all than intensive and 'ray casting' audio isn't possible unless there is some SHAPE audio chip to main memory bus no one has pointed out.

Shape =/= Raycasting

 

[Chobel]

If SHAPE does what you want to do, then you can use it (and it will a lot of the time), and it looks like the PS4 audio chip is purely decompression yeah.

How much CPU resources does mp3 decompression take? Because I wanna know why Sony choose include mp3 decompression chip and not any other audio function.

 

[Chobel]

it's up guys the full article

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview

And it's fucking long one.

 

[shinra-bansho]

EDIT: Why didn't they publish the full interview to begin with instead of editorialisation with misleading headlines like "unlocking power."

How much CPU resources does mp3 decompression take? Because I wanna know why Sony choose include mp3 decompression chip and not any other audio function.

Presumably, they found that it was the most resource intensive function, that could be inexpensively (in terms of additional BoM) off-loaded to dedicated hardware. There's a good post from gofreak with a real world example:

That kind of depends on whether a game would otherwise need more power for audio codec vs dsp.

Looking at Killzone 2's breakdown of SPU usage, they used on aggregate about 10% of one SPU for audio (and bear in mind, they could have used a lot more if they wanted/needed). Over half that time seems to have related to MP3 decoding, the rest for effects. In a case like that, if you had a chip to offload mp3 decoding to, that chip would be handling 'most' of the burden.

 

[DBT85]

it's up guys the full article

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview

And it's fucking long one.

Balance pops up 25 times. Damn.

reading now.

 

[NTIETS13A_Superiority]

This is not first time devs would miss some button prompt change. It could be running on ps4 devkit or most likely it is a pc version. I suspect all 3rd party games are running on pc:s until proven otherwise.

 

[Chobel]

So in the latest DF article they're saying that Coherent memory bandwidth in Xbox One is higher than PS4, is this true? I thought Xbox One and PS4 have the same bandwidth for coherent memory access, 30GB/s.

Also, another bullshit from MS, higher ACEs will make performance worse.

 

[2345425]

Pretty much, there is no scenario I see bone being able to come close to PS4 sales when all is said and done.

They could take PS3-esque losses on the Xbone to undercut Sony in price (the shareholders would revolt), or start buying up major publishers (the shareholders would revolt).

Welcome to neogaf, it appears you have spelt foot wrong in your username.

 

[spatenfloot]

PS4

XBone

The problem here is that you are just posting screenshot that have no audio. Obviously, this discounts the Xbone's audio processor's ability to offload tasks which free up the CPU. I assume you can use the MUTE button on your TV as a TURBO button was previously used in PCs.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

The problem here is that you are just posting screenshot that have no audio. Obviously, this discounts the Xbone's audio processor's ability to offload tasks which free up the CPU. I assume you can use the MUTE button on your TV as a TURBO button was previously used in PCs.

I just put a shell to my ear. The both sound pretty good.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

What are the links to those AC videos btw I didnt get to really watch them for myself. :/

 

[Insane Metal]

What are the links to those AC videos btw I didnt get to really watch them for myself. :/

Don't bother, apparently they are showing the PC version for both and the difference is because of different scenes/settings.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Don't bother, apparently they are showing the PC version for both and the difference is because of different scenes/settings.

What in the hell ubisoft.. ok. So theres still no real comparisons in the wild..

 

[artist]

What are the links to those AC videos btw I didnt get to really watch them for myself. :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wR04gSLPnI&hd=1

 

[SwiftDeath]

Nevermind missed the other new thread

 

[malfcn]

Who knows exactly what screens are from what system. And there are no perfect side-by-sides either. Xbox 360 controller and dpad in the screens.