I don't think there is anything to worry about here. They will work on another one. I wasn't a big fan of the reboot. Was pretty disappointing. I really enjoyed Rise though. It won't be mistaken for a classic TR game in any way, but I thought it was an extremely well-made action/adventure game and it at least veered back a bit towards some of the things that are important to the series (like a shift towards the adventure side of things with the expanded focus on exploration). I have decided to try and judge these games on their own merits now, but if I had one wish it would be to make the platforming challenging again. I think traps would go a long way towards helping in this regard. Even more sections like Rise's Orrery. I'd love to see a playable mansion again too though. I loved Anniverary's in particular. That was really cool.
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I hope CD gets another shot at Tomb Raider.
- Thread starter Croatoan
- Start date
The franchise certainly is not dead.
The game has been well received as well.
Poor sales are due to a bad business decision creating a total mismatch between the traditional fanbase and the platform where the game has been released.
But it's certainly not a fatal mistake and the PC version of ROTR still has a good chance at selling well.
The game has been well received as well.
Poor sales are due to a bad business decision creating a total mismatch between the traditional fanbase and the platform where the game has been released.
But it's certainly not a fatal mistake and the PC version of ROTR still has a good chance at selling well.
SolidSnakex
Member
Oddly enough they still have Keeley Hawes voicing Lara in the "Lara Croft" games. Then again that Lara is basically classic Lara. Same cocky attitude and it includes her iconic outfit and twin pistols. They won't even feature those as an unlockable extra in the new mainline games.
DarthWalden
Banned
I think they will, the reason it performed poorly had nothing to do with how the game turned out and general sentiment toward the franchise. It was just locked away to one console and released at the absolute worst time.
Eddie_Khaled
Member
I have been playing this game for the past two weeks now... been taking it very slowly and enjoying every corner it has.
you can really feel the blood, sweat and tears that CD have spent to produce this high quality of a product.
It really is a shame that this game was not marketed properly
you can really feel the blood, sweat and tears that CD have spent to produce this high quality of a product.
It really is a shame that this game was not marketed properly
Plague Doctor
Member
The bolded points was what really killed it. Bad word of mouth would have been (and was) countered by the positive gameplay reviews. Having it only bundled by two vendors at a premium price point and having no meaningful media promotion took an already rough launch window and made it a death march.
It has potential, hopefully the next TR brings Lara a little closer to the confident presentation that made her so iconic to begin with (sans ridiculously conical physical features).
Moral of the story: If you are going to pay for exclusivity and risk the bad PR, treat it like the crown jewel of your holiday line up and that you give a damn about the IP.
Lys Skygge
Member
I'd argue that the XB1 exclusivity announcement is the main offender. Pissing off more than half your fan base is not a good way to sell your game.
Really though, it's a combination of everything listed. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong. Murphys Law doing work.
I am sure the game has/will have recouped dev cost by the time the PC release comes knocking. Xbox platform sales worldwide + MS money bags = dev cost? If not, Xbox platform sales worldwide + MS money bags + PC sales = dev cost.
It still won't do significantly more than that but enough to fund a sequel. The PS4 release is going for the crowded Fall. Good luck with that. The "good reception" on Gaf will not be necessarily shared by the millions of PS users out there that can only remember "flop", "xbox exclusivity deal BS", "late". Even if they release at $40, I don't think it'll do much. Def not for Square when you slice that price into a pie.
It still won't do significantly more than that but enough to fund a sequel. The PS4 release is going for the crowded Fall. Good luck with that. The "good reception" on Gaf will not be necessarily shared by the millions of PS users out there that can only remember "flop", "xbox exclusivity deal BS", "late". Even if they release at $40, I don't think it'll do much. Def not for Square when you slice that price into a pie.
Plague Doctor
Member
Completely agree to a point and I am not attempting to excuse or downplay the prelaunch tom-fuckery from either company.
The most persistent and solid theory about why this deal even happened (that is to taking a historic ps and then multiplatorm title and making it have the appearance of being MS title) was to compete with UC 4. This on its face is kind of a wonky and ill advised reason for Square to alienate a built in fanbase.
So accepting that reason, I feel MS should have made the best of what was a risky gamble. Either be gutsy and then go all in, or don't do it at all..
To be topical, there is a classic Lando Empire quote that fits this perfectly.
I really don't expect RotTR to do well on PC or PS4 either, delayed PC ports have a dicey sales record at best and the PS4 version is going to be a year old and buried buy more recent releases.
Companies like Square Enix aren't looking to break even, they're looking for a significant multiplicative return on their investment. Unless the Microsoft deal was utterly huge I just don't see how RotTR achieves that at this point.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the end of the franchise for at least as long a time as passed between Underworld and the reboot.
Companies like Square Enix aren't looking to break even, they're looking for a significant multiplicative return on their investment. Unless the Microsoft deal was utterly huge I just don't see how RotTR achieves that at this point.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the end of the franchise for at least as long a time as passed between Underworld and the reboot.
ebullientprism
Member
I hope it bombing means they ease up on the expensive AAA game model they were working on for the last two games. If they dont have to sell 10 million copies to break even they could hopefully ditch this QTE-setpiece garbage and go back to Underworld/Anniversary type of gameplay.
Not happening though.
Not happening though.
Stallion Dan
Member
I hope they don't. Their first attempt at a reboot was TR Legend which was just a prettier classic Tomb Raider only with much less challenge.
Their next reboot attempt was TR2013 and it just ripped off Uncharted and made the challenge even worse, as well as killed off the platforming and puzzle solving (and I'm talking proper puzzles and platforming, not this ridiculous shit excuse for it they using now).
They've had five chances, move over and let someone else have a shot.
Also, I don't think they've ever actually made a HD Tomb Raider on PC or Playstation. Nixxes does all that. Totally overated developer.
Their next reboot attempt was TR2013 and it just ripped off Uncharted and made the challenge even worse, as well as killed off the platforming and puzzle solving (and I'm talking proper puzzles and platforming, not this ridiculous shit excuse for it they using now).
They've had five chances, move over and let someone else have a shot.
Also, I don't think they've ever actually made a HD Tomb Raider on PC or Playstation. Nixxes does all that. Totally overated developer.
statham
Member
nah, game is fantastic, PC and PS4 users will buy it up. I have no doubt we see another one. Microsoft Money-hats cushioned the blow.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I hope so too. Looking forward to playing RotTR when it hits PS4 or PC.
Just didn't want to buy it for my Xbox One.
Just didn't want to buy it for my Xbox One.
Sure you can if you need a scapegoat. Wouldn't be the first time it happened to a Tomb Raider developer.
SRTtoZ
Member
Obviously this all comes down to how much MS paid for the timed exclusivity. If SE thought the game was going to sell well regardless then I'm sure they made a huge mistake but if MS paid boatloads we should see another game but they for sure damaged the brand after reintroducing us to the reboot. I have my copy still sealed and am waiting until I get home to play it but I'm really looking forward to it.
So you know how much MS paid them?
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yes please
No thank you. Lara using a bow and arrow is not "Katniss pandering" - CD have made a concerted effort to redefine Lara and part of that is her new iconography. The bow and arrow and her climbing axe are as much a part of new Lara as the dual pistols were e part of old Lara. As for the gymnastics, nah. That was unrealistic. Nobody would ever climb like that irl. Less clumsy? Maybe, but no to the weird ass poses she would pull when climbing shit.
Nah. The best Tomb Raider would be one of the first 4 Tomb Raiders; I personally lean towards TR2. While the marketing certainly did go for Lara's sex appeal the games were popular because they offered great 3D platforming in awesome 3D environments. Arguably they focus more on her sex with the reboot because Lara's sex never really mattered in the old games themselves while in the reboot they're all up in your face about it. Old Lara was a strong and confident female explorer who went on adventures by herself for the fun of it. CD Lara is a woman that has to survive with the help of men and fight off rape and usually has mommy and daddy issues driving her adventures and the shit she goes through borders on torture porn.
CD has a crazy preoccupation with Lara as a character to the point that it harms gameplay. They turned a fantastic 3D platforming series into a cinematic romp driven by awful narratives and characters and crammed the gameplay into the corner.
It really is a shame that after 1 misstep with the franchise after meeting Eidos' insane demands for yearly Tomb Raider releases Core got kicked to the curb while after years of relative failure CD continues to keep the franchise. Core even pitched the idea of Tomb Raider Anniversary to Eidos and made a tech demo and Eidos basically told them "Great idea! We'll have CD make it! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!"
... I don't know. When I showed my mother the old games, she recognizes the old Lara Croft as, well, Lara Croft. When I showed her the new game, she thought it was the girl from The Hunger Games.
I'd argue she's more Rambo now, though...
DaleinCalgary
Member
I'll buy it used.
that and just like the initial reboot, wait for it to be heavily discounted.
Cause you know SE just gonna charge 60 with extras when it comes to the other platforms.
Which one?
chromatic9
Member
It's quite staggering that TR 2013 is said to have cost 100 million to make and I assume marketing included.
According to this article, Scott Amos said they got into profit at the end of 2013
http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/...t-is-in-the-black-since-the-end-of-last-year/
With what they sold in the first month and the rest of the year at discount it does seem to tally around 80-100 million in what SE actually gets from each sale.
Uncharted 2 is said to have cost around 20 million by the devs to make and I'd say that again to market but remember Sony's ad campaigns weren't that mega on first half of PS3. I read Uncharted 3 cost 25 million but I doubt that and maybe Uncharted 2 did go over a bit to what Evan Wells said. My point was these games seem like a 60 million type production/marketing. Tomb Raider 2013, yes it was multiplat adding to the cost (nixxies do the other version) but it didn't seem to be any higher in production than Uncharted 3 or 2 and actually less. Maybe the dev cost was 50 million and SE really pushed the boat out and matched that with the ad campaign? I can't remember much about the scale of it. 75m seems about the most it was worth top end if you wan to scream rising devs costs.
I read a post by one of the devs very early on saying the sequel is coming but won't be on the scale of 2013, before the Xbox deal. If this game is back to being around 60 million all in. MS may have put up most of that and the PS4 and PC versions can actually still do very well for SE even sold at mostly half price compared to the disaster of the first game trying to recoup all that. This could mean a third game could be done similar to Rise of.
Of course damage to the brand is risky but I can see why SE was tempted. This ip is well known and can sell 8.5 million units, people are interested but mainly at a discount. If they've got a good sum from MS they can easily make this work if many come back at a discount like before. It would've been a great boon if this did well for XB1 though, but seems as though it's doing less than per single platform of 2013.
According to this article, Scott Amos said they got into profit at the end of 2013
http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/...t-is-in-the-black-since-the-end-of-last-year/
With what they sold in the first month and the rest of the year at discount it does seem to tally around 80-100 million in what SE actually gets from each sale.
Uncharted 2 is said to have cost around 20 million by the devs to make and I'd say that again to market but remember Sony's ad campaigns weren't that mega on first half of PS3. I read Uncharted 3 cost 25 million but I doubt that and maybe Uncharted 2 did go over a bit to what Evan Wells said. My point was these games seem like a 60 million type production/marketing. Tomb Raider 2013, yes it was multiplat adding to the cost (nixxies do the other version) but it didn't seem to be any higher in production than Uncharted 3 or 2 and actually less. Maybe the dev cost was 50 million and SE really pushed the boat out and matched that with the ad campaign? I can't remember much about the scale of it. 75m seems about the most it was worth top end if you wan to scream rising devs costs.
I read a post by one of the devs very early on saying the sequel is coming but won't be on the scale of 2013, before the Xbox deal. If this game is back to being around 60 million all in. MS may have put up most of that and the PS4 and PC versions can actually still do very well for SE even sold at mostly half price compared to the disaster of the first game trying to recoup all that. This could mean a third game could be done similar to Rise of.
Of course damage to the brand is risky but I can see why SE was tempted. This ip is well known and can sell 8.5 million units, people are interested but mainly at a discount. If they've got a good sum from MS they can easily make this work if many come back at a discount like before. It would've been a great boon if this did well for XB1 though, but seems as though it's doing less than per single platform of 2013.
ubersticky
Member
Go back to classic Tomb Raider and enough of this dudebro Lara.
Tomb Raider never needed to go into a new more realistic direction. WTF at that excuse. CD just never knew what to do with Tomb Raider... wtf Legend and Underworld. Give the IP to someone else.
Tomb Raider never needed to go into a new more realistic direction. WTF at that excuse. CD just never knew what to do with Tomb Raider... wtf Legend and Underworld. Give the IP to someone else.
Memorabilia
Member
Ewwww.
Garrett Hawke
Member
How is this "dudebro" Lara? If anything Lara now has been designed to be less dudebro catering.
Hey from what i hear Tomb Raider Go is pretty good.
supernormal
Member
I just finished this game today. Very good overall. I'll be double dipping on the PC version, hoping that it has some nice graphical upgrades.
The old games were less character-driven. Lara was just a badass adventurer and the game focused mostly on the gameplay. Now they turned her into Rambo and have her talking constantly spouting one-liners. It feels like CD tries too hard to go "Look at this character we made! She's so badass!" while the old games focused more on making a great challenging gameplay experience. Also constant low-agency cinematic action with explosions everywhere. It caters more to people with really short attention spans. Like a popcorn summer blockbuster Michael Bay action movie remake of a classic.
Core Design, who else? (And sure, Core were not entirely innocent in the situation that resulted in the series being taken away from them but Eidos was at least as much to blame for AoD being released in an unfinished state and Core honestly didn't deserve to be treated the way Eidos treated them, even before AoD.)
To be fair, if it is true (and going off of what we've heard I do think it is), the majority of Crystal employees will not have been involved in making such a decision.
Guys I'm sure ms and SE knew very well how the game was gonna be received and so I'm sure it's gonna get a sequel. Also can't wait to to get the game when I get my xboner this week
No way did they expect it sell this poorly. There's just no way.
The sheer fact that they spent time and money making a practically non-existent Xbox 360 version is a testament to that.
There's selling less than usual, and then there's just being absolutely slaughtered at the retail market. When a franchise with as much fanfare, history, and success as Tomb Raider only sells the equivalent of The Order 1886, a brand new, critically panned game that didn't even have any last-gen port boosts, something has gone seriously, horribly wrong.
And even if Square Enix breaks even, they still poisoned the well with the franchise, angered more than half their player base, slammed the brakes on the franchise's forward momentum from the reboot, and greatly lost gamer mindshare for the series.
SolidSnakex
Member
Yeah, it was a mix in terms of blame. But i'd say most of it was on Eidos. They decided to put a new team on AoD and then had the main TR staff work on Chronicles (the fifth TR for the PSone). Then Chronicles team found a mess by the time that they finished that game and were able to move over to AoD. They had to throw out that engine and essentially start from scratch. All they had was art, character models, and a basic story.
It's still amazing that AoD sunk them. Especially since many fans feel that Chronicles ended up being the best TR from that generations. They were never given a do over. Even though their TR Anniversary game looked amazing.
Takamura-San
Member
How can you even make this connection? More so when one of the most sought out hidden "codes" related to old TR was the non existent nude code. The reason why TR had to be rebooted was that the old formula was growing stale and the state of the character lost appeal as it was. If people were buying the game as it was at that moment, they would be making more of it. They aren't.
Yeah, I know. Although Chronicles being considered the best TR game by many fans is news to me. I mean, I like it but AFAIK most fans seem to consider it to be the weakest of the PS1 classics. I still hope that their unfinished Anniversary Edition is going to see the light of day at some point. Also, just seeing the difference in tone and story quality between AoD and what Crystal is doing at the moment is just truly depressing IMO. I still wonder where the franchise would be today if it had stayed at Core and whether they would have given in to the cinematic shooter trend, as well.
ubersticky
Member
How is it not? This new Lara is less sexified, yes and idc. These new games are catered for the shooting gamer crowd. WTF else did TR2k13 offer really... this game was recieved well but I think everyone agrees that this is not Tomb Raider. Why else did people request more tombs, explorations and athmosphere. And was this really needed to be requested by the fans again? It's like CD hasn't made a TR game ever. They know what TR fans want by now because people have been telling them this since Legend and they still can't deliver? By all means, give me more TR games where the main focus is to shoot enemies to survive... not go through long ass levels with puzzles and dangerous paths that require strategies and some thought in order to clear it. Throw in some wild animals ass well or even dinosaurs, dragons or superhuman enemies. Dont put in a "hidden tomb" between all these waves of shooting enemies and expect us to smile.
Not to mention her as a character they way they rebooted HER as this innocent girl becoming this massmurderer... what! Lara killed 10 times more human enemies in this reboot than combined in all previous games Core games. Give me a TR reboot with max 5 human enemies to kill. Her persona, the one they introduced in the beginning if the reboot is completely different from what the actual game delivered. TR was never character driven like another poster said. Now it's completey the opposite and it kinda doesnt work when you have games like Uncharted doing it better because the focus was that from the beginning.
Those Lara Croft downloadable titles are more TR games than these reboot games ever will be. TR games were crazy back in the day. Long complex levels with dinosaurs, dragons, atlatians, fun puzzles, vehicles and you did all kinds of bad assery to survive. Fuck this 'realism' theyre pushing. It's so forced.
And you talk about realism with her gymnastics and climbing? Whats so realistic about her jumping between snowcovered tree branches from tree to tree, who does that irl, Lady Gaga?
That's not quite what happened. Core didn't just make a tech demo, their project was actually greenlit by Eidos so Core were working on the full game with Eidos' consent. When exactly Crystal entered the picture and how is unclear but there have been several rumours and theories. One of them is that Crystal somehow got wind of Core's project, feared that Core would try to "steal" the series back from them and ended up convincing Eidos to cancel Core's game and let Crystal develop an anniversary game instead. Another theory is that Crystal started work on their project without knowing of Core's version and Eidos had to decide which one they wanted to axe. Another possibility is that the reason Core's version was cancelled was that their sale to Rebellion was considered to be more important than them finishing the TRAE and that Crystal only started work on their anniversary game after Core's had already been cancelled (I'm not sure if the time frame of when the first media for Crystal's version was released, etc. works with this one, though). And there are quite a few more ways in which it could've happened. At the end of the day, we don't know when and why Crystal started development on their remake but Core's version was certainly far more than a tech demo. According to some estimations the game was 80% finished (All levels except the last one or two and Croft Manor had been completely remade. However, only the Peruvian ones already had enemies in them and most of the cutscenes weren't implemented, none of the sound work was done and work on the PSP version's multiplayer mode had only just begun when it got cancelled.)
I'm inclined to agree. The older TR games never threw so much cannon fodder at you and instead focused more on the traversal and puzzle elements. As the series progressed there were more human enemies, but not to the extent of the new games.
One aspect I find ridiculous in the platforming is the fact that ledges and handholds have all been marked out with super obvious repeating elements, as if some poor fool had to go ahead of Lara and paint out a path for her to follow.
the Lara Croft X titles embody more of what Tomb Raider should be than the TR20xx titles.
I find it funny how many people are saying how it's a shame they screwed this game over by making it exclusive. So much of a game's "narrative" online is written by the people who yell the loudest and then is spread outward. If the ps4 only owners would have been adults and thought to themselves "hm that's business and how the world works, besides I'll probably get to play it next year like the wording clearly reveals", then they wouldn't have caused a huge uproar that convinces others to basically boycott the game. It's only an issue because people made it an issue. I own both systems, but last gen I only had a PS3, and whenever a game was exclusive to Xbox I didn't whine...because I can see how big gaming businesses want to operate. It doesn't take much thought to step outside yourself and use your imagination to see that. Just because a game comes out on another system doesn't mean the next one will, and assuming that is the case is to be willfully immature. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how the Internet treats games as this personal business, when it's fucking entertainment and exists to make money.
ROUGE_BLOCK
Member
PS4 owners it's on you to save this game! Buy it in droves next holiday!
I'm already getting Uncharted 4.
Considering they included an incredibly irritating post-credits teaser for
, I think it's fair to say we'll see at least one more entry in this new Tomb Raider series developed by them. Mind you, i'd prefer they hire another writer for that inevitable entry since their current one just doesn't make this new Lara compelling or a worthwhile character, especially since this time around the writing regresses by framing the entire adventure as Lara doing everything she does because she has a massive amount of unresolved daddy issues instead of having her own desires (all of which are accompanied by flashbacks that feel cheap and manipulative). I've heard the Tomb Raider 2014 comic series is much more well-written but that's not the same writer (most of the time) and I haven't read them so I can't comment on them beyond what i've heard. The short version is that i'd like to see Crystal Dynamic's third try to knock it out of the park, albeit with a different writer when they get around to it.
a mystery surrounding why Lara's father was killed by Trinity that no one cares about because no one plays Tomb Raider to learn about Lara's father
StrongBlackVine
Banned
So bend over and smile? What happened was exactly what needed to happen.
LOL I've already lost all hype for this game. It's been spoiled too. Bargain bin at best.
chromatic9
Member
Tomb Raider Underworld had lots of great puzzles. If I recall most of the game was puzzles and boss fights interspersed dual pistol action on sporadic enemies and cut scenes. probably my favorite Tomb Raider game. I can see how devs are not keen though and they have the sales figures for Underworld.
It had nothing to do with uproar. Xbox owners were perfectly free to buy the game, and they still didn't. Even ignoring the exclusivity they had a poor launch strategy and outlook and it certainly didn't help that MS was also plastering Fallout 4 ads everywhere too.
