An old lady wich is already in the menopause, goes where ?
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1st Grade Transgendered Student being barred from using Female Bathroom
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An old lady wich is already in the menopause, goes where ?
Devolution
Member
It's always annoying the narrowness people define women in order to exclude transgenders, the word becomes so slim even cis women don't apply sometimes.
I see no reason that would be limited to one side of this debate. Transgendered persons could surely be assaulted while using their gendered/counter-biological appropriate restroom, too.
I think quin's post, linked earlier, gives a pretty good metaphor for this:
i understand milestones, but you are not mentioning how do children achieve milestones. it is through their upbringing and environment. milestones are also referred to as "windows of opportunity," is is how their psychological cognitive social skills develop, as is biologically with physical brain development. some kids can miss some milestones based on their upbringing, while other kids reach milestones much sooner than the average. this is all dependent on how the child is being raised. so, i don't see why in this case, any of the child's upbringing cannot be linked to the parents.
i dont know what is frou frou, but once again, I am simply trying to state that the parents and surroundings have something to do with development. and i am sure the parents had something to do with the passport and id as well.
Now think of this crying at 3 am and not letting you sleep.
and school bills ... and dirty diapers
Don't forget that there is no medical registered case of phantom limb syndrome on transgender people who underwent genital surgery
That is what happens when people who never thinked about gender's true meaning talks about gender =P
Devolution
Member
I don't see what the parents have to do with it. The fact that the kids have to see countless professionals about the matter means the parents can't exactly manipulate the situation to whatever "biases" people love to insinuate in these threads.
Oh yes I realize this. I guess my post could be easily misconstrued. Perhaps I was also misunderstanding others, too. I realize some cant transition, for all sorts of reasons. I didn't mean to imply you couldn't identify as a woman despite not having woman parts. I guess I was musing past that and thought others had.
Link
The Autumn Wind
I think that's where the school is coming from. Do they make this decision now, or delay it til later when it will be even more awkward after she's been using the girls' bathroom for the past several years?
The phantom limb thing is completely understandable to me, and it's the disconnect I've been talking about. Great metaphor. Really struggling to explain what I'm talking about, since I'm not sure people are understanding me anymore.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Zoe
Member
It kind of blows my mind how each triplet ended up so radically different.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Really cool how you've read the thread and respected the opinions of doctors and experts who tell you how this actually works.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Kids are a wonderful blessing. Lose one and you'll understand why.
That's about enough realness for me today.
So you're so deeply concerned for her that you'll ignore her, her parents, and her medical professionals. Yeah, that's some deep concern.
You're a silly lady.
My sister had a hormone imbalance that delayed the onset of her periods. I really don't think this is as big an issue you think it is. We're also now talking about puberty where I believe the hormonal treatment can begin so her developing breasts and whatnot would probably smooth the transition from her not having much to say if some of the girls were chatting about their periods.
Which I now want to know if this is a common topic to arise in a girl's bathroom amongst strangers in the first place. It seems you're really looking for some issue here.
So the issue has more to do with educating the parents than it does forcing which bathroom she uses?
She can't sit down to pee when she's older?
How About No
Member
Well now that doctors have caught the condition this early, she won't start growing hair in odd places...or not as many places.
Try harder!
Seriously, if you have trouble accepting it, then you have trouble accepting it--just know that it's generally considered rude to intentionally not call someone by their preferred pronoun.
How can one family be so adorable? There should be legal limits on these levels of cute.
To explain what I was talking about before, I suppose I feel 'male' is in no way a part of my identity (outside of perhaps partially sexuality) I don't identify as a male. I don't feel it's incorrect, though, too. I feel like those disconnects, or incorrect bodies, or phantom limb-like feelings, are legit, an should be fixed. As such I can see now how someone with say woman parts that feels the need to have man parts would identify as a man. Used in this way it signifies that disconnect. That make sense to me now. It's outside this disconnect that gender identity outside of behavior or sexual orientation is still kind of odd to me personally.
And remember most of my musings here were prompted by that genderbread pic and its 'woman-ness' or 'man-ness' scale.
And remember most of my musings here were prompted by that genderbread pic and its 'woman-ness' or 'man-ness' scale.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Honestly, I am glad you aren't keeping it inside - at least that means you're open to discuss this, which might result in your changing your opinions.
I strongly disagree with the "Agree or shut up"-stance some people have when it comes to topics such as these.
As for the rest of your post, she won't start grow hair in odd places and change her emotions as they will most likely transition her by that time (she's already on puberty blockers). It's not just a matter of her feeling like a girl, but several years of confirmation of those feelings by professionals who know way more about this than you (or me, though I could in a year or two be qualified enough).
I'm afraid it's not really up to you whether or not this girl is a boy or not. You're entitled to an opinion on the matter, but you can't undermine her identity just because you don't agree with it. She's a biological male, but her gender is female. It's a difficult concept to grasp, especially when the 'progressive thought police' are throwing all manner of stuff about in this thread to get people on board. I agree with them, but you can't really change the perceptions of everyone.
I do hope you come around to accept it though. There are plenty of people who have to deal with not being accepted because they're transgendered. It's just a shame that you can't sympathise with a girl's personal identity being challenged by an institution that's going to be an integral part of her life for several years.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The problem is when it seems the person does not give a crap about reality and just accepts their own inexperienced viewpoint. There have been many posts in this thread quoting professionals that would dispute this person's opinion, as much as anyone can have one when it comes to another knowing themselves.
why did you bring up milestones if you are not willing to say that parents are involved in them reaching those milestones? kids have to learn from their environment.
Are there any statistics relating to how many transgendered people decide/decide not to undergo sex changes?
Devolution
Member
So then what's stopping you from questioning other parts of the environment this kid interacts with?
Than the family will sue the GROUP OF DOCTORS who allowed her to change name and receive puberty blockers and by her teens, estrogen
also, she will NOT change her mind, specialy so long after this =P
It has basicaly the same chance of you (imagining that you are a cisgender man) waking up and "you know what ? I think I'm a woman"
It was somewhat a rhetorical question, just poorly thought out (as evidenced by the quote pileup).
Basically, it doesn't matter what the situation you come up with, I think the seperation in and of itself should be done away with mostly.
I can't say I know a ton of trans people (like 10, tops), but none of them have ever told me about someone they know 'deciding' that they were the correct gender originally.
If it did happen though, I can't say the school would have been correct, because in this very moment, she identifies as female, thus she is.
Amakusa
Member
I am open to this, I just can't accept the fact a little kid can make a choice before he even hits puberty. What if this little kid just really loves his mom, wants to be like his mom because he looks up to her? Mom looks pretty in her dresses, mom looks pretty when she changes her hair color. I want to do that.. I want to wear dresses. I just feel... its a big mistake at that age. THey should wait.
Devolution
Member
The puberty blockers and gender therapy happens precisely so the child can wait and they can figure out if this is the best course of action. There's a reason so many professionals are involved in the process. People are acting like the parents can just get whatever hormones they need and force this on the child, that's not the case.
nothing has stopped me. ive stated upbringing, and environment. these factors are dependent on the caregivers. They can be parents, grandparents, foster, siblings around them, and so on. they all contribute.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Your mistake is in saying that it is a choice. It is not a choice. And in any case, the child can still change his mind by the time he or she reaches puberty. Like Devolution and many others have said, going through transitioning is not something parents can just do without teh help of medical professionals, i.e. people who have much more knowledge in the field and people who know their research well enough to judge and decide whether a child is transgendered. If a child is transgendered, waiting would only caused him or her more harm.
Gender has nothing to do with puberty. Children aren't non gendered bodies and people don't start possessing genders only when they reach puberty.
I would think medical professionals could differentiate between your scenario and real gender dysphoria.
It's not a choice. Nobody chooses to be male or female, they just are, and sometimes their biological body does not match their mental gender. There's tons of material on this subject and it gets explained in detail in every trans thread that pops up. Read it.
Getting your gender confused isn't nearly as easy as you seem to think it is. Cisgender people don't just wake up one day and think, "I must be transgender!" There are boys who want to wear dresses like their moms. My brother was one. It doesn't change your sense of internal gender identity. Feminine boys, cross-dressing boys, even boys who pretend to be girls for fun- they simply will not actually assume their gender identity is female. That's not how gender identity works.
And please use the correct pronouns for the girl, it irks me when you refer to her as "him."
CrudeDiatribe
Member
Frou-frou? Hippie-dippie herpie-derpie artsy-fartsy. Y'know.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but my impression of most posts in this thread that say "her/his parents caused this" is that they believe a little boy has been stuck in a dress, given dolls and told/conditioned to like it, and then the those parents are put one hand on their collective hip and waggle a finger on the other hand at the school and say "get in line, this is our brat, let him wear a dress and piss in the girl's bog". Am I wrong?
If that is not a reflection of your view of the situation and I just take your suggestion that parents influence development, my reply is then: Probably. So what? By this point, all the health professionals have decided that this is a little girl and have green-lighted the birth certificate (et al) to be changed accordingly.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
There are probably ways to distinguish between a desire to emulate ones mother, and a transgender condition.
For starters, it's visible on a brain level. The thing is that there are trained professionals who are well aware of these hypotheticals you might think of, and tests to confirm that she is indeed a girl rather than a boy.
You shouldn't worry, the parents and experts have already considered all things before decided on putting her on the part toward transition.
Hmm. I'm inclined to do a bit of personal research into this when I have some spare time. I may not identify as a transgender myself, but I can understand the frustration that must come with it. I'm sure you must hate people saying this sort of thing all the time, but I really do admire the bravery involved with being openly transgendered in a world filled with bigotry.
Out of interest, what's your opinion on transgendered people who eventually, for lack of a better word, 'grow out' of their chosen identity role? I know a couple of people who have been openly transgendered to the point where they won't stop advertising it and eventually just came out and said they were gay instead. Part of me thinks they googled the word and immediately decided that being a feminine male meant they were transgendered. I know a fair few people who have 'come out' as bisexual only to then decide they're straight a month later.
Sorry for that tangent, but again, I'm just interested in the sort of things encompassing transgenderism and the ways people shape their own personal identities.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You still haven't read anything in this thread and are just stubbornly sticking to an inexperienced viewpoint you made up for yourself.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Gut > brain
perfectchaos007
Member
The issue I still have here, is that the "validation" of these children's decisions seem to rely on the psychologists/psychiatrists and experts that affirm the diagnosis. Psychologists are also human and are thus imperfect. They also have long history of misdiagnosis more notably that of ADD and ADHD among adolescents. Almost any kid under his/her parents insurance can get an aderall/Ritalin prescription for an ADD diagnosis even if they are simply rambunctious kids. Do some psychologists diagnose prematurely so they can sell their drugs in a self serving manner? Of course some do, that's their business. I imagine the hormone drugs are also big business and with big business comes some sort of corruption whether there's a cash incentive for the psychiatrist to prescribe the drug or a discount on the orders.
So I guess I would be asking for assurance that these psychiatrists in particular are not in a private practice. They are under a gigantic microscope by higher ups to ensure their diagnosis isn't influenced by any outside financial factors by the drug companies.
Feel free to lol at my skepticism, call me a dumb conspiracy theorist with an accompanying avatar quote.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dresden-shumaker/raising-a-son-within-princess-culture_b_2727874.html
This article enforces the idea that maybe its not the child's opinion alone that makes her claim transgender. To rule out the possibility that outside forces are not influencing her (such as parents) is closed minded.
This article enforces the idea that maybe its not the child's opinion alone that makes her claim transgender. To rule out the possibility that outside forces are not influencing her (such as parents) is closed minded.
So who are you going to listen to? We have the experts and researchers who spend their professional careers in this field or we have some drive by posters who have little to no contact on the matter giving their opinion.
Seeing that the people who actually go through the process support this method and the parents and professionals both feel this is the best course of action I really don't think there's much else to read into this.
From my understanding, the hormone treatment for actual transitioning doesn't actually happen until puberty and before then the child is just put on hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty so the individual can make an informed, consenting decision when they are of age.
The drugs don't "make" them any more of a male or a female than they already feel.
I won't pretend to be an expert on any of this, but telling someone they can't use a bathroom because of your own beliefs, doesn't feel right, to me.
That being said, it also feels a bit odd that a child the age of my 6-yr old daughter can already have determined that they are a he/she in this instance. I'm genuinely curious how that process plays out.
Either way though, I don't agree with the school's decision in this instance.
That being said, it also feels a bit odd that a child the age of my 6-yr old daughter can already have determined that they are a he/she in this instance. I'm genuinely curious how that process plays out.
Either way though, I don't agree with the school's decision in this instance.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
That sort of skepticism is valid and understandable. The other person just refusing to use the preferred pronoun and acting like they know better than everyone else based on nothing but their own assumptions is bullshit.
Wikipedia's page on Gender Identity is long, informative, full of citations, and may be of some insight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity said:
Not speaking exactly about your issue, but my health insurance doesn't cover any of the costs of my hormones.
The vast majority of health insurance providers don't cover trans* health care of *any* kind.
For what it's worth, hormones aren't really big business because there simply aren't a whole lot of trans* people. There's no volume in it, and the medications I take have cheap generics available (which is a god-send -- and do remember that Big Pharma hates cheap generics.) A lot of trans* people, in fact, order hormones off the internet from scary offshore places just because of the failures of health care here to provide adequate care for them. There is, simply, no secret conspiracy to get people hooked on hormones.
Besides, they wouldn't give hormones to someone (Coy, here) who isn't even in puberty yet. Puberty blockers simply don't do anything for someone her age.
I really like this post. No, it's not a choice, and, even if it were a choice (if gender were fluid to some extent), that's *STILL OK*. She can decide that she's a girl, or, some day decide otherwise. It's entirely up to her. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!
I will assume that this is in good faith; but I will ask: "Why is it a big mistake?" What harm do you think will come to her because of the decisions she's made so far? I'm genuinely curious why you think this is a mistake for her.
And certainly, outwardly she appears happier for it. Keep in mind that there haven't been any irreversible changes done to her at this point.
This article enforces the idea that maybe its not the child's opinion alone that makes her claim to be GIRLY. To rule out the possibility that outside forces are not influencing her (such as parents) is closed minded.
The world needs more tomboy trans women !
FUCK THE BINARY !
=P
...the boy in the article still identifys as a boy
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