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HDR 4k TV sets with lowest input lag?

B

Bleeether

Member
I got my 65 Ks8000. As far as i can tell input lag is not an issue. I tested bloodborn and couldn't tell the difference between the ks8000 and my benq 2420... then again i don't have some of those superhuman senses that some of you out there have.

This tv is amazing. Worth every penny imo.
 
P

Peltz

Member
spwolf said:
No TV's tested under 4k so far are below 36ms input lag.
99% tests out there are for 1080p mode that leo bondar test can do, it cant do 4k.

I found some polish HDTV magazine that writes their tests in forums. But these are all without HDR right now. I expect many sites to start updating their tests for 4K HDR once games are out in next month or two. Polish said they will re-test their current screens with HDR in that time too.

https://hdtvpolska.com/forum/topic/...i-jak-duże-ma-rogi-baza-input-lag-telewizory/


Dodałem info jak mierzymy laga przy Ultra HD oraz aktualna lista (którą dodam w pierwszym poście):

Samsung KS8000 21 ms / Ultra HD 39 ms
Samsung KS9000 21 ms / Ultra HD 40 ms
Philips PFS5501/PFH5501 24 ms / Ultra HD 36 ms
Philips PUS6401 29 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
Philips PUS6561 35 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
Philips PUS6501 35 ms / Ultra HD 67 ms
Panasonic DX900 35 ms / Ultra HD 52 ms
Sony XD93 35 ms / Ultra HD 59 ms
Panasonic DX800 42 ms / Ultra HD 54 ms
Panasonic DX750 44 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
LG UH8507/850V 45 ms / Ultra HD 50 ms
Panasonic DX700 52 ms / Ultra HD 64 ms
LG UH7707 57 ms / Ultra HD 54 ms

These are with NO HDR. Expect slighly or much worse with HDR, depending on set.

So when people tell you their new TV does 20ms and is great, tell them it is doing 40+ ms and is still a great TV.

In fact, what we are going to see is that cheaper sets with less picture enhancements will do better. For instance the best is PFS5501, which is very barebones as much as I know.

So input lag should not be only reason to buy TV. For instance, Eurogamer preffered Panny DX750 which likely has over 60ms with HDR enabled. They did not notice it. But what you will likely notice is better picture when tvs have some enhancements turned on under game mode vs barebones.

I expect tests to clear this up by December.
Click to expand...

Those input lag times are abysmal. Heck, I'm still accustomed to CRT gaming and would rather stick to the fastest 1080p native sets which gets at least close to CRT speeds than lag that hard.
 
P

Paz

Member
It's also worth considering motion blur in your TV purchasing decisions, my Sony set has a similar input delay to my brothers LG OLED but the complete lack of motion blur on his set makes it feel massively more responsive, particularly in fast moving 2D games.

There's a lot that goes in to a good TV.
 
Reallink

Reallink

Member
spwolf said:
No TV's tested under 4k so far are below 36ms input lag.
99% tests out there are for 1080p mode that leo bondar test can do, it cant do 4k.

I found some polish HDTV magazine that writes their tests in forums. But these are all without HDR right now. I expect many sites to start updating their tests for 4K HDR once games are out in next month or two. Polish said they will re-test their current screens with HDR in that time too.

https://hdtvpolska.com/forum/topic/...i-jak-duże-ma-rogi-baza-input-lag-telewizory/


Dodałem info jak mierzymy laga przy Ultra HD oraz aktualna lista (którą dodam w pierwszym poście):

Samsung KS8000 21 ms / Ultra HD 39 ms
Samsung KS9000 21 ms / Ultra HD 40 ms
Philips PFS5501/PFH5501 24 ms / Ultra HD 36 ms
Philips PUS6401 29 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
Philips PUS6561 35 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
Philips PUS6501 35 ms / Ultra HD 67 ms
Panasonic DX900 35 ms / Ultra HD 52 ms
Sony XD93 35 ms / Ultra HD 59 ms
Panasonic DX800 42 ms / Ultra HD 54 ms
Panasonic DX750 44 ms / Ultra HD 56 ms
LG UH8507/850V 45 ms / Ultra HD 50 ms
Panasonic DX700 52 ms / Ultra HD 64 ms
LG UH7707 57 ms / Ultra HD 54 ms

These are with NO HDR. Expect slighly or much worse with HDR, depending on set.

So when people tell you their new TV does 20ms and is great, tell them it is doing 40+ ms and is still a great TV.

In fact, what we are going to see is that cheaper sets with less picture enhancements will do better. For instance the best is PFS5501, which is very barebones as much as I know.

So input lag should not be only reason to buy TV. For instance, Eurogamer preffered Panny DX750 which likely has over 60ms with HDR enabled. They did not notice it. But what you will likely notice is better picture when tvs have some enhancements turned on under game mode vs barebones.

I expect tests to clear this up by December.
Click to expand...

Really suspect method they're using to test 4K, rigging a light to a mouse. Did they also use that method in 1080p and confirm it was returning the same results as the Bodnar? Defies reason, logic, and sense how or why 4K would be returning results so much higher than 1080p.
 
K

Kinan

Member
rtings need to test more tvs. What about Hisense, Philips, Panasonic? Sony Z9?
displaylag.com testing only at 1080p, unfortunately. :/
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
50-60ms in a display may not seem like a lot to some players (I still find it to be a lot), but they EVER play emulated content like Virtual Console or PS2 classics, even stuff like Rare Replay which includes an NES emulator, they may find the cumulative lag absolutely game breaking.

30-40ms display lag combined with emulator lag feels huge to me. One of the reasons I'm holding out for OLED (or some other per-pixel lit tech) that is closer to 20ms.
 
S

Syntsui

Member
Cyborg said:
Samsung KS9000 21 ms / Ultra HD 40 ms

Seems a lot, damn it! I realy wanted this one
Click to expand...

Unless you want to play Shooters/fighting games competitively (which you shouldn't as the internet alone makes the latency higher than this/and for fighting games you should always go with a monitor) this is not really an issue.
 
D

Durante

Member
Syntsui said:
Unless you want to play Shooters/fighting games competitively (which you shouldn't as the internet alone makes the latency higher than this/and for fighting games you should always go with a monitor) this is not really an issue.
Click to expand...
This is a misconception.

Distinct sources of input delays are cumulative, so if the network adds 40 ms and the game itself adds 30 ms and the display adds another 40 ms, then you'll be at 110 ms total input lag (and likely not very happy).
 
K

KOHIPEET

Member
I've probably just decided upon which TV I'm gonna get.
The Samsung KS7500.

rtings.com does not have it in their input lag chart, only the slightly more expensive KS8000 which has an input lag of 21.1 ms with HDR enabled at 4k - 60Hz which is really good IMO.

Now, according to flatpanelshd.com, the only difference between the KS8000 and the KS7500 is that the latrer does not have two tuners and has slightly less powerful speakers. So if the KS7500 really produces the same amount of lag, then I believe it's one of the best options.
 
I

iMax

Member
KOHIPEET said:
I've probably just decided upon which TV I'm gonna get.
The Samsung KS7500.

rtings.com does not have it in their input lag chart, only the slightly more expensive KS8000 which has an input lag of 21.1 ms with HDR enabled at 4k - 60Hz which is really good IMO.

Now, according to flatpanelshd.com, the only difference between the KS8000 and the KS7500 is that the latrer does not have two tuners and has slightly less powerful speakers. So if the KS7500 really produces the same amount of lag, then I believe it's one of the best options.
Click to expand...

The 8000 has more dimming zones too, just so you're aware.
 
S

Seth

Member
Ive been looking at the vizio P series, but input lag with 4k+hdr looks to be about 63ms.

it -sounds- high, but im wondering if i would really notice it. I don't really play compettitive games or shooters or anything, so am I really going to notice an issue if i don't care about something as fast paced as a multiplayer shooter?

Is there anything online that could demonstrate what 63ms input lag might look like?
 
R

raidersx

Member
Darklor01 said:
The first panel I got was damaged in shipping. Big dent on the underside of the metal which killed the light bar on the right of the screen. Second panel is flawless so far. The input lag on current PS4 is great, better than my previous JU6400 model which was good to begin with. Love it.

You can see the band on the right side from that first set.
image_14.jpeg
Click to expand...

Is the ks8000 a upgrade in pq from ju6400? that's what I have but thinking of upgrading to it.
 
B

bar mitzvah

Neo Member
Just hooked up my new AVS system (the NES console one that retrousb sells). Thing plays like a goddamn dream on my 65KS8000.

Also, ever since that Rtings 4K input lag report, it's weird how those folks swearing the input lag would be 30-40ms higher didn't reply. It's almost like the sky isn't falling.

Megaman 2 is still a very good game.
 
S

Sieden

Neo Member
Cyriades said:
With game mode on input lag is 22.6ms.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks8000
Click to expand...

The digital foundry review says specifically that the KS7000 (KS8000) does not display HDR while in game mode.

So either that rtings website is wrong or digital foundry is, either way, this is just making it more difficult as consumers to make a purchasing decision.
I'm assuming the rtings website didn't go back and measure the color gamut after switching to game mode.
 
G

Gitaroo

Member
Sieden said:
The digital foundry review says specifically that the KS7000 (KS8000) does not display HDR while in game mode.

So either that rtings website is wrong or digital foundry is, either way, this is just making it more difficult as consumers to make a purchasing decision.
I'm assuming the rtings website didn't go back and measure the color gamut after switching to game mode.
Click to expand...

The new firmware for the samsung were just released last week, DF reviewed it a while back.
 
M

MCD

Junior Member
Sieden said:
The digital foundry review says specifically that the KS7000 (KS8000) does not display HDR while in game mode.

So either that rtings website is wrong or digital foundry is, either way, this is just making it more difficult as consumers to make a purchasing decision.
I'm assuming the rtings website didn't go back and measure the color gamut after switching to game mode.
Click to expand...

DF review is outdated. Samsung updated the firmware to enable HDR while in game mode so Rtings and HDTV test updated their review.

Since darkx posts here he should inform DF of this.
 
G

Gunslinger

Member
Sorry to bump this but I didn't want to create a new thread for this question. Basically please help me pick out a TV between these 2.

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR43X800D-Class-Ultra-Black/dp/B01FWIEO2E/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

or

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN40KU7000-40-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01EBG6CTG/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475987282&sr=1-2&keywords=samsung+40+inch+hdr

I owned the Samsung TV for a week but it was faulty. And kept getting flashes of blue lights when playing the PS4. didn't see this issue when watching regular TV like nextflix 4k streaming. The picture of the TV was phenomenal. So now that I have an option to exchange how is the sony TV? My room is small so 43 inch is kind of pushing is as it is.
I am not very in the know when it comes to TV tech. How is the HDR for the these 2 TVs? I know its 40 inches so probably not good HDR. But oh well my room is too small.
But anyway which one you guys recommend?
 
F

farisr

Member
B

bill0527

Member
May be a ridiculous question and may be the wrong thread, but.....

I'm looking to upgrade to a 4k HDR capable TV by this Christmas.

The problem that I may have is that I have an Onkyo TX-SR333 receiver, which says that it does support 4k/60hz HDMI 2.0, but does the receiver also need to support HDR in some way? If I run it through the receiver am I likely to get additional input lag and no HDR?
 
F

Formosa

Member
Rich! said:
Do NOT buy a Sony.
Click to expand...

lol I own both Samsung ks8000 and a Sony 930D. I prefer the 930 any day. Input lag doesn't mean all, the color on the Sony is much better and real than the Samsung. As well as motion blur. This is good for watch movies. I don't feel lag at all on my 930d even it's got high input lag.
 
Pantz

Pantz

Member
Bought me a US KS8000 49" last week. Just waiting for PS4 Pro now. I'm kind of confused about which settings to put it on for HDR though. It's got Sport/Game/HDR/Normal modes but then you can also turn HDR color on for your source in another menu. So i'm guessing you turn on game mode and then turn color on for the source? Love the TV so far though and 49" seems perfect for a bedroom setup since I sit pretty close with my pc anyway.
 
T

Tommy DJ

Member
I'm looking to get a new display for my desktop and I'm really curious how well a 50"-55" UHD TV double as a computer monitor?

The main issue I'm thinking of is the viewing distance. In my case, I can get about 1m for mouse and keyboard games and 2m for anything that can use a controller. Granted its not going to look like complete shit, due to the 4K resolution, but is that too close for a 50" display?
 
V

vatstep

This poster pulses with an appeal so broad the typical restraints of our societies fall by the wayside.
CRUNT said:
Bought me a US KS8000 49" last week. Just waiting for PS4 Pro now. I'm kind of confused about which settings to put it on for HDR though. It's got Sport/Game/HDR/Normal modes but then you can also turn HDR color on for your source in another menu. So i'm guessing you turn on game mode and then turn color on for the source? Love the TV so far though and 49" seems perfect for a bedroom setup since I sit pretty close with my pc anyway.
Click to expand...
The basics are:

Turn on UHD Color for any devices/inputs that are HDR.

Either the Standard or Movie mode can display HDR content, and both will remember different picture settings for SDR and HDR content specifically; for example, you can set Input 3 to have Backlight = 13 for SDR, but Backlight = 20 for HDR. You have to configure these settings while HDR is on/off. So, for me, I would turn on my Xbox One S and confirm my SDR settings while on the dashboard, then launch Forza/Gears and confirm HDR settings. Unfortunately, if you have Game mode turned on within Standard/Movie mode, it will display HDR content, BUT it will not remember unique settings for SDR and HDR. Hopefully Samsung addresses this via a firmware update.

Opinions vary regarding which options you'll want to tweak for HDR viewing, but the general consensus is that you should set Backlight and Contrast to max level, and set Smart LED to High. I personally like Dynamic Contrast set to Low/Medium on HDR sources as well.
 
H

harz-marz

Member
HDR has me so confused!

My TV is a Samsung KS8000 (UK version) and I have an Xbox One S. I've not yet calibrated the set, has anyone got anything they would recommend I tweak? I've it set to Game mode and UHD is turned on.

I've a few questions...

1.As above, what other settings should I change?

2.When watching a 4K UHD Blu-ray, should I leave it on game mode or change this? I've not been impressed with how good they look so far (Revenant and Life of Pi)

3.On any scene where it's dark with white text (eg loading screens or subtitles) they illuminate the dark background which is very distracting. Any way to eliminate or reduce this?

Thanks!
 
O

OmegaTreeFish

Banned
Gunslinger said:
Sorry to bump this but I didn't want to create a new thread for this question. Basically please help me pick out a TV between these 2.

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR43X800D-Class-Ultra-Black/dp/B01FWIEO2E/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

or

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN40KU7000-40-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01EBG6CTG/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475987282&sr=1-2&keywords=samsung+40+inch+hdr

I owned the Samsung TV for a week but it was faulty. And kept getting flashes of blue lights when playing the PS4. didn't see this issue when watching regular TV like nextflix 4k streaming. The picture of the TV was phenomenal. So now that I have an option to exchange how is the sony TV? My room is small so 43 inch is kind of pushing is as it is.
I am not very in the know when it comes to TV tech. How is the HDR for the these 2 TVs? I know its 40 inches so probably not good HDR. But oh well my room is too small.
But anyway which one you guys recommend?
Click to expand...

I have the ku6400 but im in the uk so it ia the same tv as the ku7000

My thoughts

Picture is fantastic.

Game mode has great input delay (i have read different sources but its somewhere between 20-25ms. I can say it feels perfectly responsove to me when in game mode. This includes when playing in hdr.

Hdr in this game is not the same as the full blown hdr of the top end models. However it is still really nice. It doesnt add the insane brightness that the ks8000 can do but it has a much wider range of colours leading to much more detail in the image colours, highlights and shadows.

Hdr does activate when a game supports it. I have it working with deus ex on ps4. This is because it is designed to be able to read HDR-10 signal. It just cant output it fully but it does take advantage o it.

I got mine for £450 and it was a total bargain. I couldn't be happier with it.

Havnt seen the sony in action but the hdr is tge sane type of thing by the looks of it. Reading hdr10 but displaying it on an 8-bit panel. I would simply take what ever has the lowest input delay of these two.

Edit:

As for tv setting advice i personally turn all the processing crap off.

For games i have game mode on which disables most processing anyway. Then warm 2 colour tone. Then turn sharpness to somewhere between 0-10. Also i turn dynamic contrast off as i hate it.

I have seen people say they like to set dynamic contrast to medium or high to see the difference between SDR and HDR better but after trying it out i still hate it.

All it does is destroy details. With it off the blacks are black and the whites and bright white. With this on you are just pushing more things to these extreames and thus destroying detail. The only reason people see more of a difference with it on is because more detail is retained when HDR is on. But it doesnt stop a lot of detail being lost.

If you want a more realistic colour and detail representation then just turn dynmaic contrast off. If you like the super high contrast look then sure turn it on but you are still losing a ton of detail when you do.

For movies and tv i set to move mode. Warm 2. All extra bs off (motion plus, dynamic contrast, noise reduction etc). Back light to what ever suits the room lighting, sharpening to 10-20ish.

I get a much more acurate picture like this.

If like me you have been using standard colour tone instead of warm 2 for years then warm 2 can be kind of jaring at first. Everthing looks yellow. However this is because you have been looking at overly blue images for years. After about 1 hour warm 2 looked waaaaayyy better and much more natural. Whites look white again and if you switch back you realise how blue the old setting was.
 
E

EvB

Member
harz-marz said:
HDR has me so confused!

My TV is a Samsung KS8000 (UK version) and I have an Xbox One S. I've not yet calibrated the set, has anyone got anything they would recommend I tweak? I've it set to Game mode and UHD is turned on.

I've a few questions...

1.As above, what other settings should I change?

2.When watching a 4K UHD Blu-ray, should I leave it on game mode or change this? I've not been impressed with how good they look so far (Revenant and Life of Pi)

3.On any scene where it's dark with white text (eg loading screens or subtitles) they illuminate the dark background which is very distracting. Any way to eliminate or reduce this?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Have a look at the settings a review site has used.
http://uk.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks8000/settings

Game mode typically comes and the expense of image quality and there is a really good chance that enabling game mode disables the processing required for things like the dimming zones of your TV, which in turn are responsible for delivering the "HDR" effect you want for games . This possibly explains point 3, that sounds like the local dimming isn't working very well.
 
Aceofspades

Aceofspades

Banned
This remind me of "HD Ready" TVs in 2006. Best advise is to wait for newer generations of displays next year.

I'll stick to my 1080p for my Pro.
 
A

anddo0

Member
Aceofspades said:
This remind me of "HD Ready" TVs in 2006. Best advise is to wait for newer generations of displays next year.

I'll stick to my 1080p for my Pro.
Click to expand...

I was considering the Sony XBR43X800D, good price for entry level 4k/HDR.. However, I think Ill wait as well. Even the best HDR sets out right now aren't quite ready, or have issues you have to live with.. I'm fine with PS4 Pro super sampling to my 1080p set (Sony W900A) for now.
 
F

FarFromAnyGame

Banned
harz-marz said:
HDR has me so confused!

My TV is a Samsung KS8000 (UK version) and I have an Xbox One S. I've not yet calibrated the set, has anyone got anything they would recommend I tweak? I've it set to Game mode and UHD is turned on.

I've a few questions...

1.As above, what other settings should I change?

2.When watching a 4K UHD Blu-ray, should I leave it on game mode or change this? I've not been impressed with how good they look so far (Revenant and Life of Pi)

3.On any scene where it's dark with white text (eg loading screens or subtitles) they illuminate the dark background which is very distracting. Any way to eliminate or reduce this?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I have the same TV.

1. I used rtings settings. Just don't mess with white balance.

2. Yes, I would turn off game mode.

3. That's because the TV is edge-lit. getting bias lighting helps a lot!! google that if you don't know what it is.

Here is a link with a lot of FAQ, discussions and helpful people about this particular TV.


I'd take a picture of my settings but I'm in bed right now.
 
E

EvB

Member
Aceofspades said:
This remind me of "HD Ready" TVs in 2006. Best advise is to wait for newer generations of displays next year.

I'll stick to my 1080p for my Pro.
Click to expand...

They've done the same with with HDR

SUHD Premium is the badge. Except we keep seeing endless threads of people recommending budget TVs that can't really be considered HDR.
 
J

Jingo

Member
What the hell is sharpness and why less is better? I tought that puting more sharpness would actually increase picture definition.
 
W

WHOAguitarninja

Member
Jingo said:
What the hell is sharpness and why less is better? I tought that puting more sharpness would actually increase picture definition.
Click to expand...

No, sharpness is a post process filter that puts harsh dark edges on things. Sharpness at 0 means that no additional sharpening filter is applied, and that your tv is going to resolve images in the manner that they are sent to them.

Sharpness is somewhat akin to a cartoonist putting black borders around every object rather than just drawing in the colors natural to the object and letting the image form naturally. You're not losing any detail by setting sharpness to 0, you're actually preserving the detail at the level that it really is in the image.
 
dr_rus

dr_rus

Member
Aceofspades said:
This remind me of "HD Ready" TVs in 2006. Best advise is to wait for newer generations of displays next year.

I'll stick to my 1080p for my Pro.
Click to expand...
Yep, it's too early to jump on 4K/HDR unless you're ready to sell off and buy something new in a couple of years.
 
O

OmegaTreeFish

Banned
Jingo said:
What the hell is sharpness and why less is better? I tought that puting more sharpness would actually increase picture definition.
Click to expand...

It essentially increases the contrast in a certain way. However if your image is already sharp (native or even 1080p as it scales perfectly) it will degrade IQ. It can help a bit with lower resolutions but you get used to it being off or low really fast.

The best thing to understand is that all of these special picture setting actually lower image quality.

Up the sharpness and you add noise and artifacts.

Up the contrast and you lose details in the highlights and shadows.

Up the saturation and you destroy detail in colours.

Small amounts of these settings can add a little bit of punch to the image but personally i prefer it to look as natural as possible so it all get turned off.

I popped into a store yesterday and looked at thier SUHD tv comparison of HDR to SDR on a tv next to it and it just made me shake my head. Instead of showing the true advantage of HDR they have all the shit turned up so it pretty much becomes luminous. On one of the TVs trying to demonstrate the difference was show a picture of a flower then blurb about its colour tech comes on and shows how it can show much more true to life colours. It then switches to the hdr mode and its like all the settings are turned to high. The flower is radioactive red and the brightness is almost uncomfortable. Ends up looking not realistic at all. But guess what. High contrast and saturation "make it pop" so in the short turn it attracts the customer but after a while it just looks gross.

HDR should make everything look more natural, not more saturated and contrasty.
 
I

III-V

Member
Jingo said:
What the hell is sharpness and why less is better? I tought that puting more sharpness would actually increase picture definition.
Click to expand...

sharpness actually increases the high frequency noise (around high contrast areas) and in small amounts can improve the image. In large amounts it really distorts it completely.

Its good to get a setup disc, an play with the sharpness test patterns. You will find out very quickly what the setting is doing.

dr_rus said:
Yep, it's too early to jump on 4K/HDR unless you're ready to sell off and buy something new in a couple of years.
Click to expand...

Thats where I am at, and I am ok with this. Early adopters fee and all that.
 
K

KTS2448

Member
Renekton said:
Why are PC monitors so far behind the HDR curve here?
Click to expand...

The difference of 4K and 1080p at the distance of monitor to chair (usual comp setup) is ridiculously low. Also I imagine 144hz/low response time might be super expensive to produce in 4k as well. Idk if other factors are involved but this comes to mind first as why.
 
W

Weevilone

Member
III-V said:
Thats where I am at, and I am ok with this. Early adopters fee and all that.
Click to expand...

I think some of it is timing. I already have one early gen 4k TV and I'm about to add an early UHD display. Both circumstances amount to failure at the wrong time.

I want an OLED but I feel that's a tad early too so I'll buy a cheap UHD and give it away in a year or two.
 
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