JumpJeff84
Member
Is 'untasteful' a word?
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Rumor: Bravely Second's "Tomahawk" class changed to a cowboy one (+ costume edit)
- Thread starter Eolz
- Start date
theprodigy
Member
So, this isn't even confirmed yet?
lol
lol
"Distasteful" is what you're looking for.
Yes. The person that sent this "tip" thinks they can pull a fast one.
charlequin
Banned
The character job in question was about as embarrassing and poorly-thought-out an example of cultural appropriation as you can get these days. It doesn't even have the excuse of being called something like "Warrior" and just using a Native style; it's literally named something intended to convey this idea of a magical Indian warrior to an audience that doesn't know anything about indigenous American people beyond offensive 50s-era movie stereotypes. It is, to be blunt, hot garbage.
Now when Nintendo sits down to bring over this game to the US -- the country where the people being stereotyped here actually live, and a country where awareness of how shit these stereotypes are and how widely misused they are has grown dramatically in the last couple decades -- they're stuck looking at the fact that while the rest of the content in the game might be just fine, this costume is going to be offensive (and just disruptive to the experience) for a big part of their audience. And not for any particular reason -- this isn't a major storyline point that might be offensive to some but nonetheless is central to the narrative, or a callback to some external reference that people are expecting to see, it's just the video game equivalent of the Sexy Indian Squaw costumes shitty people wear to Halloween parties.
Given all that, making this choice is a slam dunk. If you keep it, you give actual, real offense to people who are a part of your audience, just to preserve something minor and unimportant in the game; if you get rid of it, the only people you offend are the ones working themselves up into an artificial froth over how any and every localization change is "censorship." The former is a real concern for an actual; business reliant on long term customer dedication for success; the latter is an audience you're better off actively pissing off early on in the hopes that you don't have to hear about it from them every time you do your job.
Also, these statements from the article quoted in the OP are outlandishly foolish:
The former reads like something someone who doesn't actually understand what people are complaining about in these situations trying to imagine how being offended works, and the second one is a bullshit excuse given disingenuously by people who never wanted to include minority characters in the first place.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
As someone with Canadian First Nation's ancestry, this kind of stuff really rubs me the wrong way. It's such a half hearted effort when they're only changing the costume for some regions and not all.
Sadly being black doesn't exempt one from being a privileged asshole.
You don't kill them. They just teach you the ability after you beat them.
I don't think he's ever said exactly, but he definitely looks part black at least.
Eolz
Member
Hence the "Rumor" at the start of the OP.
At least, it's still nice to talk about this and raise the issue rather than discovering everything at the last moment when they can't change anything anymore like it has been the case with NOA/8-4 (XCX, Fire Emblem, etc) and S-E (Bravely Default, DQVIII) lately...
GlassEmpires
Member
All I can think is Sniper, Hunter, Survivalist, Woodsman as replacements
meltingparappa
Member
So is a viable alternative to simply erase them from all representation in media?
Gotdatmoney
Member
As a side note is there ever a time where people feel wearing the native american costume in this game could be appropriate? I dunno if I could come up with one. If jobs were kind of like Final Fantasy 3 where you visit different regions in the world and they live amd train as different classes? So there is a village of dark knights, village of geomancers, village of bards etc? I dunno. You gotta be culturally sensitive when you have things like this in games.
I like that they are changing it though. Why offend people over something so irrelevant to the experience? I havent played the game but I imagine it isnt a big part?
I like that they are changing it though. Why offend people over something so irrelevant to the experience? I havent played the game but I imagine it isnt a big part?
Linkstrikesback
Member
I mean, they can't magically go back in time and fix the japanese version. I'm sure this change will be in both the EU and NA versions, presuming it's real. (I hope it is, cowgirl costume looks a lot better)
chaobreaker
Member
It's pretty clear that the tipster was trying to push some "reverse racism" agenda with comments like that.
Bearpowers
Neo Member
I'm a quarter native and honestly find the change annoying.
Cultural Appropriation can be a thing, but when it's a simple nod like a character design I see no issue.
If anything I think it's a good thing, it exposes people to the beauty of Native culture and art.
This stuff aside, the old outfit was significantly better looking.
Cultural Appropriation can be a thing, but when it's a simple nod like a character design I see no issue.
If anything I think it's a good thing, it exposes people to the beauty of Native culture and art.
This stuff aside, the old outfit was significantly better looking.
GlassEmpires
Member
You can put a native American inspired class in a game, just don't label it something stereotypically associated with it. Tomahawk is tasteless, the class it represents is fine imo
Modest Mauser
Member
A viable alternative is respectful representation rather than being a silly stereotype maybe? Like the guy in the new inFamous for an example? Goodness, people.
Psst. There is a middle ground between sexy g-string costume on non-native character and zero representation at all. Like, you know, having a native american character in a video game.
I always assumed he was mixed-race. Either way, he should know better.
i'm trying to think about how this "exposes people to the beauty of Native culture and art" and i'm coming up with nothing
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Wait, Indian costumes on Halloween are bad? Not American so I don't get it
LordGorchnik
Member
Out of curiosity do you find Shantae's outfit tasteless?
You find native americans wearing tribal headresses and face paint insulting? What?
Bearpowers
Neo Member
It's clearly native themed and looks nice.
But then again you have people who can't appreciate fanservice, people get so offended at these days it's annoying.
I don't see how a sexy native inspired outfit is in bad taste at all.
Sexuality is not bad and I don't see how it takes away from games.
entremet
Member
I have no problems with this.
Companies do this all the time when localizing products for broader international appeal. They're just being sensitive toward individual audiences and political sensibilities.
This is especially prescient today in the light of the Washington Redskins ongoing controversy.
Companies do this all the time when localizing products for broader international appeal. They're just being sensitive toward individual audiences and political sensibilities.
This is especially prescient today in the light of the Washington Redskins ongoing controversy.
If your game has a village of natives that does the Native American trope, at least either:
a) be faithful to the tribe you're adapting to
or
b) make it stylistically unique and original as possible.
I think Breath of Fire IV did B very well with the Worent clan.
Sexuality is not bad, no. Bastardizing an already troped-to-hell culture is shitty, none the less. It's 2015, and believe it or not most game developers have grown out of the 'sexy native american' garbage that grew out of american culture.
PixyJunket
Member
Progressives are becoming the modern day book burners.
I am a quarter (or so) Native American.
Dear white college kids, stop telling everybody else what to be offended by.
I am a quarter (or so) Native American.
Dear white college kids, stop telling everybody else what to be offended by.
I guess I'm a bit desensitized since I live near an Indian Reservation (and worked there in the past as well, New Mexico) who seem to be diehead Washington Redskins fans (stickers are everywhere) so I wonder if this tribe would find this the least bit offensive, but whatever.
However, changing it to a Cowboy? You beat the Indian Boss and become a Cowboy? Is this right? Like, really? That's the change? Which is worse here?
However, changing it to a Cowboy? You beat the Indian Boss and become a Cowboy? Is this right? Like, really? That's the change? Which is worse here?
Nintendo doesn't want the problems turning a culture into a sexual fetish entails. That is why they scrapped the Mandingo class
Bearpowers
Neo Member
As a native, I don't how it's bad at all
Nintendo changing something on their own without anyone outside saying anything before said decision is not book burning.
maybe you should try reading my comment again without your outrage glasses on
if you want sexy native american costumes, whatever, but don't try and pretend that it's going to serve a larger purpose than sexy native american costumes
Considering a bunch of native americans were the ones caling for the Washington's team to change their name. Maybe they would be, don't generalize all native Americans because you knew some once. They aren't a damn hive mind. This goes for all peoples, by the way.
Well, do you. It's a good thing an entire culture isn't a collective thought process.
First off you being a quarter native is irrelevant to this issue and second "exposes people to the beauty of Native culture and art" how by using literally the most stereotypical depiction of a Native American that exists?
meltingparappa
Member
The post I was quoting was -
Obviously "Tomahawk" is one step beyond the tastelessness of a pro football team, but there's indeed a middleground and essentially removing the character instead of making tasteful changes while staying Native American is exactly at the 'zero representation' end of the spectrum.NinjaCoachZ said:
chaobreaker
Member
My problem is not with the outfit itself (I think Shantae's awesome).
My only problem with how in Bravely Default the female characters usually get more scantily clad or "cute" costumes when male characters are typically exempt from that. This is especially shown in some of the jobs in the game and bonus outfits you can get. The spell fencer is just the most egregious example of this.
I think OP got confused. The costume itself would be appropriation, not its removal.
LOL are you serious? If people can't write a minority character without going deep on the stereotypes, sometimes to the point of offense, they need to become better writers and take a minute to do some research or just take the time to fucking talk to some people of the ethnicity in question. If the only way you can think to write a Native American person is to dress them tribal "Cowboys and Indians" attire, you've done goofed (though in this case its a costume and not so much a character). Minority X is just as much a human being as any other person and can be written as such.
LOL are you serious? If people can't write a minority character without going deep on the stereotypes, sometimes to the point of offense, they need to become better writers and take a minute to do some research or just take the time to fucking talk to some people of the ethnicity in question. If the only way you can think to write a Native American person is to dress them tribal "Cowboys and Indians" attire, you've done goofed (though in this case its a costume and not so much a character). Minority X is just as much a human being as any other person and can be written as such.
Bearpowers
Neo Member
Humans are inherently sexual, out main purpose for existing to literally to make humans.
There's nothing wrong with feeling sexual attraction towards things, I honestly have a few fetishes myself like glasses and stockings.
Sexualizing clothing is harmless
I imagine that they're not stopping at just the job costume itself.
Bearpowers
Neo Member
It's fanservice, the purpose it serves is to be eye candy and there's nothing wrong with that.
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