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AMD/DICE unveil Mantle, a console-like low-level PC graphics API used by Frostbite 3
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
For now you can threat is as GLIDE. If you had Voodoo back in day each game that supported Glide was awesome performance wise on Voodoo accelerators.
Giant Panda
Member
I don't get why people think this is a good thing then.
Axonometri
Member
I've been building and playing PC games for so long I don't want to tell you... I am also a bit confused as to what is going on for sure.
Future PhaZe
Member
At the edge of my seat for Mantle and STEAMOS benchmarks in comparison to DX.
Shits about to get real
Shits about to get real
I noticed that people calling it now "more complex". It is not complex. IT is an option for GCN GPUs. If you won't have GCN GPU you will be still able to play game in DirectX.
I am the only one here who loved Glide ?
It still can be open. Of course Nvidia cards wont benefit from custom GCN fuctions, so games will be generally better optimized for GCN AMD cards because consoles have GCN cards.
But Nvidia cards would benefit from all general improvements like decreased drawcall overheads, better CPU utilization, better/more direct memory management, lower level api [many functions are supported in both vendors] and they also could include their own GPU family [for example Kepler] specific custom functions in API, so if developer desire, it could use them - good example would be Grid 2 and its exclusive features for Intel Iris Pro - for general Nvidia GPU it would be for example direct access to CSAA/SGSSAA buffers.
The idea that OpenGL is somehow magically faster than DirectX because it's "open" is misguided. Just like DirectX, OpenGL in OS'es like Linux and OSX is no longer used by one very demanding application exclusively and needs to deal with several applications (including the OS itself) wishing to use GPU resources at the same time.
An API that isn't neither used nor curated by the OS itself and talks directly to the driver is indeed going to allow a game to get priority access to GPU resources, but even if it's open I doubt NVidia would simply bow and add it to their drivers like that instead of simply creating their own API just to discourage devs from using Mantle.
An API that isn't neither used nor curated by the OS itself and talks directly to the driver is indeed going to allow a game to get priority access to GPU resources, but even if it's open I doubt NVidia would simply bow and add it to their drivers like that instead of simply creating their own API just to discourage devs from using Mantle.
I was also considering this but i can't believe they introduce new API to take most of GCN GPUs which will be standard for Ati in next 5-6 years.
Axonometri
Member
Yeah, Glide was awesome, and I supported it with multiple cards. My issue is it was limited to those cards, and even though it was far superior, it ended up being swallowed and DirectX is what it is today.
angular graphics
Banned
Future PhaZe
Member
This is the hope. Competition between AMD and Nvidia from an API standpoint is a huge win for PC gamers based on performance gains.
GameSeeker
Member
Repi, I assume that Mantle addresses the Parallel Dispatch problems in DX11 you mentioned in various GDC presentations? Your slides states that Mantle will be cross-platform. Does that include the next-gen consoles or just Windows/Linux?
Hugh Buelow
Member
I don't know how I feel about this.
If Nvidia release a similar API, will we see software "Only for <manufacturer>"? Also, if this API is really low-level, will older games have issues on upcoming GPU (if the architecture changes)?
If Nvidia release a similar API, will we see software "Only for <manufacturer>"? Also, if this API is really low-level, will older games have issues on upcoming GPU (if the architecture changes)?
angular graphics
Banned
Of course, eventually. You'll have to fall back to DX11.
This may be fine for you as a consumer, but I can't imagine developers being very happy to have to support so many standards and achieve feature parity/debugging between all of them. Especially when the use of stuff like shading languages and more complex effects is a whole magnitude of bigger when compared to the days of Glide. May not be a problem for teams with highly technical staff like DICE, but I sure ain't looking forward to seeing most of the open-source stuff I use to have to implement yet another renderer. Yet another shading language to support if you're using CG alone.
Nvidia did an entire shading language (CG) to keep that consistent across two DirectX and OpenGL. Are they going to even add support for Mantle? We need more info on this thing before assuming it's a Glide-like situation tho.
Seriously, i don't see them in position now to do that. AMD has GCN in every new next gen console + their market share on PC which according to Steam is around 33% to 50-55% nvidia.
Considering most of AAA studios do multiplats they will choose GCN as their primary lead platform. This is where mantle comes into play and how AMD will try to sell it to devs and what is most important with hight chance that mantle won't be psychX supportwise.
Hey what up dude!
Since you are here, you mind cutting through all the bullshit and PR mumbo jumbo and just tell us what sort of improvement we are talking about compared to Dx11.2? Are we looking at 10% FPS? 20%? What is it?
I will also assume that you guys aren't being payed "a truckload of money" by AMD to gimp your Dx11 version of the game, or delaying/withholding some optimizations.
So come on man, let us have some real info, all of these PR slides will just end up confusing people, because they leave way too much room for speculation.
mhayze
Member
We'll see. I think it's about more than average performance increases - it will be a way to optionally use new features (things like the optional hair animation in Tomb Raider PC) in some games. No one can afford to release a PC game that doesn't work for the entire nVidia / intel HD integrated market. So PC games now need to be developed that work with both DX and this API. Some of that extra performance will be used to implement some graphical niceties, I'm betting, rather than just raising frame rate 10% or 20% or whatever.
Being proprietary isn't a good thing - on the other hand, the whole point here has to be building an API uniquely suited to GCN architecture. If it worked just as well on nVidia hardware, it would just be yet another alternative to DX and OGL. I am quite curious to see if Intel and nVidia bite on developing drivers, or just ignore this completely.
Glide was awesome - and dumb and eventually obsolete (because it was so proprietary). This reminds me a lot of glide.
Future PhaZe
Member
You have to wonder how much the guys at STEAM knew about this. With Mantle on the horizon they kind of shit in their lunchbox in their performance argument for switching to STEAM OS.
I love glide, but i dont want to see that segregation crap again, even though families and technologies do not change as fast as they were in those days.
Because of Directx You can play games from 10 years ago without a problem, that was huge win for PC gaming.
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Yeah, it would be the best solution, but it would also had to be controlled, so we could play those games in 15 years too.
Felix Lighter
Member
I guess the fact that this is being implemented in Frostbite 3 makes it a little more legitimate right out of the gate since so many EA titles are using it.
It is an option to customers and devs as well. No one has gun pointing at devs and make them work with Mantle.
Engine Devs are curious creatures and they like to poke things a bit from time to time. New API and fast API will definetely interest a lot of gaming industry engine veterans. Next what will be important is ease of use. If Mantle will be easy to implement then developers probably will use it if not it will die.
You can't fall back to d3d unless the developer provides that option (by porting their code). Likewise, you probably liked Glide because you had a voodoo card, while everyone else was limited to games that chose to give a d3d/ogl option or stuck with software rendering (or questionable 3rd party wrappers)
Hugh Buelow
Member
Yeah, that's what I think too. Right now, as Nvidia have no equivalent, a game would need a DX / OpenGL renderer anyway. But if Nvidia releases their own low-level api, wouldn't some studio skip the general api in favor of the low-level ones to save costs?
You can play still all glide games because glide was always an option. I don't see Mantle being primary platform instead of DX. People who will have GCN will have option to boost their graphic people who don't will use DX.
Future PhaZe
Member
Seems about right. You can easily see EA/Origin moving in Mantle/AMD's direction.
I wonder what Ubisofts thinking at the moment..
Maybe Nvidia will support Mantle, maybe not. As it stands right now, a developer making a PC version of a game has to make a DirectX version in order to make any money. If they feel like it, they can make an OpenGL version so they can support OS X and Linux. If they really want to, or if they get some money/help from AMD, they can make a Mantle version. If they instead want to get some money/help from Nvidia, it is unlikely that Nvidia will give them any if they are supporting AMD's Mantle, and will instead "encourage" them to focus their efforts on optimizing for Nvidia GPUs and adding things like PhysX.
angular graphics
Banned
Stuff like that is why I worry this is a bad idea.
Its an option now, but i would love it to become a standard for both Vendors. Sure if game will still support DX11 next to Mantle than there wont be a problem, but i would rather have one, low level API thats being worked by both vendors and with both custom function GPU families from those vendors, than several different ones.
Are you suggesting because of Mantle developers won't include now DX ? Come on.
Almost all Glide games were created with DX or OpenGL as standard and Glide was an option.
Vestal
Gold Member
So now we are going to have developers devoting time to 2-3-4 maybe 5 APIs to get performance out of them.
NVIDIA supporting Mantle is probably the dumbest thing I could imagine them doing. They'd pretty much be handing the complete control of the future over to AMD.
It might be an Open API but do the other companies implementing it have any influence on its direction? Is it in AMDs best interest to keep NVIDIA in the loop? Pretty sure the answer to both is no.
It is unfortunate that APIs like Open GL and Direct X have a lot of overhead, but anyone that has been around long enough to know what things were like before they existed know that they are a necessary evil.
It might be an Open API but do the other companies implementing it have any influence on its direction? Is it in AMDs best interest to keep NVIDIA in the loop? Pretty sure the answer to both is no.
It is unfortunate that APIs like Open GL and Direct X have a lot of overhead, but anyone that has been around long enough to know what things were like before they existed know that they are a necessary evil.
So it is full low level api for everybody or nothing ? Come on. Mantle could be much needed shoot to get universal low level API down the line. So far it is GCN only who knows what will be in few years.
angular graphics
Banned
If that happens then likely PC developers will say "just use whichever works everywhere as if we care if it's a bit slower with the monster hardware that is available."
I don't know if it is even possible to combine low level and universal. The fact that something is universal implies a certain level of abstraction which means its not low level
Future PhaZe
Member
Most devs are already coding for Mantle in the form of consoles though
Did Nvidia just get hit by AMD's trap card?
Imo this is big win for Ati, especially considering that big player like EA will support it and even developing it. If it is like we think it is. AMD cards will smoke more expensive Nvidia GPUs in their games.
How are console developers coding for Mantle when they are using Sony and Microsoft provided APIs, not AMD? Or am I missing something here
I think it is a given that EA is being paid for these optimizations. I don't know how many money hats they will be handing out, but we will see.
Edit: Nevermind just saw it was co-developed by EA
(for results/numbers)If you look at slides Mantle is not completely code to metal. It is just way lower than DirectX which alone should be big boost for performance.
Carmack must be in seven heaven now considering that he was bitching a lot about overhead of PC
rudieboy77
Member
I see vague mentions about AMD cpu's FX 8 core etc... How would this benefit an AMD cpu more than an Intel?
I think the point of Mantle is bringing the optimizations from the consoles to PC. The fact that it only works on GCN cards means DirectX/OpenGL will still be around for AMDs older cards.