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[Reg]

There is warping if the surface of the water is disturbed, just like in the UC4 pic.
Case in point, the reflection of the guy's face is that real pic you quoted is completely warped near where his face comes out of the water.

edit: mkay you're actually not even following your own arguments. Nevermind this is not gonna go anywhere.
.

Welcome to the entire thread, hehe.

 

[RoboPlato]

There is warping if the surface of the water is disturbed, just like in the UC4 pic.
Case in point, the reflection of the guy's face is that real pic you quoted is completely warped near where his face comes out of the water.

edit: mkay you're actually not even following your own arguments. Nevermind this is not gonna go anywhere.



Because must insist on massive downgrade by using a insanely touched up screen (contrast and lighting) of the first teaser vs a direct capture of the gameplay demo, of course.

VFX has no consistency. He bashes console games for not being 60fps but often says that 60fps is the wrong choice since they can push visuals. He pretends to only be focused on tech but many of his arguments boil down to art arguments.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

With and without SSS pass (for the doubters or pretenders of the opposite) :

Anyone else wants to try harder?

Spoiler

NVM, everyone knows there is only one.

 

[Neff]

All which are finish , i mean if anything DC should be a perfect eg of how gfx can change with effects and that was added to a game after it came out .
Just few months ago people were saying the The order did not look so good or was downgraded when they switch uniforms .

I'm not so sure. I've always thought The Order looked several steps of everything else for pure detail and lighting.

 

[Dictator93]

With and without SSS pass (for the doubters or pretenders of the opposite) :

Anyone else wants to try harder?

Spoiler

NVM, everyone knows there is only one.

Did they mention what type of SS technique they are using at all? I have yet to watch the bringing drake video because it was focusing primarily on "popular-science" kind of stuff instead of talking about what and how they do things.

 

[RoboPlato]

Did they mention what type of SS technique they are using at all? I have yet to watch the bringing drake video because it was focusing primarily on "popular-science" kind of stuff instead of talking about what and how they do things.

We'll probably have to wait until at least GDC for that. This was a presentation for laymen at PSX

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Some written infos from the panel for those who didn't watch the panel yet: http://goo.gl/BsjPxY

http://gamingbolt.com/uncharted-4-h...ed-by-naughty-dog-reveals-their-secret-weapon

 

[Dictator93]

We'll probably have to wait until at least GDC for that. This was a presentation for laymen at PSX

I will have to wait. darn!

Some written infos from the panel for those who didn't watch the panel yet: http://goo.gl/BsjPxY

http://gamingbolt.com/uncharted-4-h...ed-by-naughty-dog-reveals-their-secret-weapon

Banned site. And the wording in the second article makes me a sad panda Fuel for warrior stuff.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Did they mention what type of SS technique they are using at all? I have yet to watch the bringing drake video because it was focusing primarily on "popular-science" kind of stuff instead of talking about what and how they do things.

They talk how they used something call a shader package .
It don't go into great detail but you get a idea of what they doing at least with drake and the engine.

 

[gamerMan]

Has anyone compared the gameplay sequences to the Drake presentation? Presentation looks a bit better to me. Wouldn't surprised me if some things were turned down for purpose of a steady framerate on stage.

I think you are right. In the presentation, Frank from Naughty Dog says the images shown at the panel have perfect lighting. Here is what he says: "I want to remind you guys. This is what we call a staged lighting room for the characters. Basically, this is basically like a perfect lighting for us to show off our model. But you guys might notice in game, there will be different lighting situations, you probably won't be able to see all the detail he has under those situations."

So basically, while the model is the same, the lighting is not. In the panel, they said this time around most of the detail is in the shaders and not in model. Since they showed they have the ability to scale the detail on the shaders, I think that is what they are doing based on different situations in the game. Naughty Dog showed the model going from looking like plastic to looking very realistic just by changing the level of detail on the shaders.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I've decided after last night's epic scramble game with some GAFers that I'm going to approach discussion on gaming graphics much differently.

There seems to be this general consensus to show screenshots of real-time cutscene renders that either are used for talks, or used in about 10% of the game without any control from the gamer. It's very misleading to people who don't know much difference between in-game footage and actual gameplay footage. The two aren't alike at all.

So.. here's to me showing only images and discussing actual gameplay footage where the user/gamer has full control of the character...

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

I think you are right. In the presentation, Frank from Naughty Dog says the images shown at the panel have perfect lighting. Here is what he says: "I want to remind you guys. This is what we call a staged lighting room for the characters. Basically, this is basically like a perfect lighting for us to show off our model. But you guys might notice in game, there will be different lighting situations, you probably won't be able to see all the detail he has under those situations."

So basically, while the model is the same, the lighting is not. In the panel, they said this time around most of the detail is in the shaders and not in model. Since they showed they have the ability to scale the detail on the shaders, I think that is what they are doing based on different situations in the game. Naughty Dog showed the model going from looking like plastic to looking very realistic just by changing the level of detail on the shaders.

Yep . I saw that. This is true. In some certain ligthing conditions, taking photos even of a top model will differ, some instances will make her look very pretty, others will make her look like a wet scared fox. I also saw the occlusion and shadows caused by the eyelid on the eyeglobe just wow !

 

[theapg]

What does DF mean?

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

What does DF mean?

Digital Foundry: Eurogamer's" technical analysis site"

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

ATT came back and updated my internet so the first thing I did was watch the hires Gamersyde video LOL. From what I watched, I think there's quite a bit of room for improvement between now and release. The major offender is the environments still retain that blocky, angular look from the PS3 games and it just looks low poly. I wouldn't be surprised if the game looked quite a bit better upon release.

The guy who said the leap in quality is reminiscent of PS2 to Pixar movies is out of his fucking mind though haha

But yeah, other than that, I would imagine quite a bit will go into the tiny little animations that make Drake and his world more believable. Naughty Dog's attention to detail is absolutely insane in that regard. So I believe the animation quality may be what will feel most "next gen" about 4.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Yep . I saw that. This is true. In some certain ligthing conditions, taking photos even of a top model will differ, some instances will make her look very pretty, others will make her look like a wet scared fox. I also saw the occlusion and shadows caused by the eyelid on the eyeglobe just wow !

Yep when they showing off how easy it is to add \change dirty , water , mud , cloths , aging the materials etc etc
The lack of some detail made it look poor compare to other times.

 

[RoboPlato]

I think you are right. In the presentation, Frank from Naughty Dog says the images shown at the panel have perfect lighting. Here is what he says: "I want to remind you guys. This is what we call a staged lighting room for the characters. Basically, this is basically like a perfect lighting for us to show off our model. But you guys might notice in game, there will be different lighting situations, you probably won't be able to see all the detail he has under those situations."

So basically, while the model is the same, the lighting is not. In the panel, they said this time around most of the detail is in the shaders and not in model. Since they showed they have the ability to scale the detail on the shaders, I think that is what they are doing based on different situations in the game. Naughty Dog showed the model going from looking like plastic to looking very realistic just by changing the level of detail on the shaders.

Thanks, this actually makes it obvious. Just look at the hairline. It seems much more natural in the presentation with the shaders cranked up and very close to the E3 video. That's the biggest thing I and several others have noticed that's different between that vid and the gameplay.

I wonder if ND is in the midst of deciding to go for 30 or 60, hence why this performed well but we still can't get a solid answer and have seen varying levels of quality between the gameplay and presentation even with the same assets.

 

[Lord Error]

Read this article:

http://www.dsogaming.com/screenshot...vs-ryse-vs-assassins-creed-unity-vs-crysis-3/

That article claims that there's no self-shadowing on characters during gameplay, which is simply not true.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

That article claims that there's no self-shadowing on characters during gameplay, which is simply not true.

I have every single frame of that gameplay video written out as GIFs. Please point to the frame where you see self-shadowing from Nate's clothes when the gamer has full control of the character.

 

[Dictator93]

That article claims that there's no self-shadowing on characters during gameplay, which is simply not true.

There is self shadowing from the character gemoetry on the character (nates arm shadow on nates leg). But there seems to be no selfhadowing or shadow casting from the pouches on him, from his belt, from the doodads on his body, from the part of his shirt that apparently flips around (did the shirt actually ripple in the gameplay video?, probably just did not notice it).

 

[RoboPlato]

There is self shadowing from the character gemoetry on the achater (nates arm on nates leg). But there seems to be no selfhadowing or shadow casting from the pouche son him, from his belt, from the doodads on his body, from the part of his shirt that apparently flips around (did the shirt actually ripple in the gameplay video?, probably just did not notice it).

It did. You can see it at the very beginning if you're loking for it.

 

[Forsete]

I have every single frame of that gameplay video written out as GIFs. Please point to the frame where you see self-shadowing from Nate's clothes when the gamer has full control of the character.

04:54 when he is climbing the wall, you can see the shadow of his head on his shoulder.

Just a quick one.

 

[Lord Error]

I have every single frame of that gameplay video written out as GIFs. Please point to the frame where you see self-shadowing from Nate's clothes when the gamer has full control of the character.

I'm not really sure what the self shadowing from the clothes is supposed to look like. I was commenting on that article which implied that there's no self shadowing at all, and I saw shadows of his hands falling onto his body etc, all over the video. The article in general is a bit weird as it's comparing cutscene which likely had manually placed effects and visuals, like lightshafts, or the water drops from his chin, against the gameplay that had to do things procedurally (where they do in fact have water splashing away from the enemy's body when he gets punched after being submerged under the waterfall)

There is self shadowing from the character gemoetry on the character (nates arm shadow on nates leg). But there seems to be no selfhadowing or shadow casting from the pouches on him, from his belt, from the doodads on his body, from the part of his shirt that apparently flips around (did the shirt actually ripple in the gameplay video?, probably just did not notice it).

I see.

 

[Forsete]

There is self shadowing from the character gemoetry on the character (nates arm shadow on nates leg). But there seems to be no selfhadowing or shadow casting from the pouches on him, from his belt, from the doodads on his body, from the part of his shirt that apparently flips around (did the shirt actually ripple in the gameplay video?, probably just did not notice it).

Check at 10:00 when he is fighting the guy. The rope is flopping about casting shadows on his legs.

 

[Dictator93]

It did. You can see it at the very beginning if you're loking for it.

yo!

I see.

When I watch it, I do not think it is a problem of them not casting shadows. I think they do, it is just the objects are so small for the resolution of the shadow map on top of the high jitter and filter of the shadow map... that they basically act as if they are nonshadow casting.

You can have the same thing happen pretty easily in other games that use a low res shadow map.

A great example below:
high res shadow map

low res shadow map

you can see how the left side of prophets foot looks unshadowed. The resolution of the shadow map is so low that even though there is self shadowing... it cannot cover the area it should.

 

[Lord Error]

When I watch it, I do not think it is a problem of them not casting shadows. I think they do, it is just the objects are so small for the resolution of the shadow map on top of the high jitter and filter of the shadow map... that they basically act as if they are nonshadow casting.

You can have the same thing happen pretty easily in other games that use a low res shadow map.

Maybe. It's better to not have them rather than to have them be really blocky. That said, the rope example 10:00 is definitely true, and you can also see shadow cast from his gun on his back as well - and they look pretty smooth too.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

There is self shadowing from the character gemoetry on the character (nates arm shadow on nates leg). But there seems to be no selfhadowing or shadow casting from the pouches on him, from his belt, from the doodads on his body, from the part of his shirt that apparently flips around (did the shirt actually ripple in the gameplay video?, probably just did not notice it).

Exactly.

 

[Anarion07]

Exactly.

When he fights the guy under the little "waterfall" where his hair gets wet, the rope casts shadows on his legs after they back away from the rock again

 

[Dictator93]

When he fights the guy under the little "waterfall" where his hair gets wet, the rope casts shadows on his legs after they back away from the rock again

Like I said, it is shadow casting. But since the shadow resolution is so low... it only gives proper coverage at close proximity between objects.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

04:54 when he is climbing the wall, you can see the shadow of his head on his shoulder.

Just a quick one.

The distracting part and why they mention no self-shadowing is because you can't see it with his instruments on his clothes. It looks very very flat and unnatural. That's what they are mentioning in the article. The game appears to take shortcuts in places that really should be important. You are seeing the back of the character 90% of the time. I would have made every object cast real shadows on each other depending on the light and not just AO either.

 

[Anarion07]

The distracting part and why they mention no self-shadowing is because you can't see it with his instruments on his clothes. It looks very very flat and unnatural. That's what they are mentioning in the article. The game appears to take shortcuts in the pre alpha version demo shown at PSX in places that really should be important. You are seeing the back of the character 90% of the time. I would have made every object cast real shadows on each other depending on the light and not just AO either.

fixed

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Like I said, it is shadow casting. But since the shadow resolution is so low... it only gives proper coverage at close proximity between objects.

You could be correct but that would lead to an aliasing problem. Where parts of the coverage get rendered at the pixel level and other parts don't. When I get home I'll show some images where you can't see ANY shadow casting at all from the objects on his belt or holster for several frames in sequence.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

fixed

Fair enough.

 

[Forsete]

The distracting part and why they mention no self-shadowing is because you can't see it with his instruments on his clothes. It looks very very flat and unnatural. That's what they are mentioning in the article. The game appears to take shortcuts in places that really should be important. You are seeing the back of the character 90% of the time. I would have made every object cast real shadows on each other depending on the light and not just AO either.

Look harder, 13:17 when he is hanging from the rock in full sunlight and just panning the camera around. Full of self shadows.

Maybe they aren't as obvious as in other games, but they are there.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It rather easy to see the cut , turn down, rush stuff for the demo.
I can't remember the last time we see a consoles AAA game demo that had such a good frame rate this far from release .
ND needs to come and say if they still going for 60fps or going to go gfx heavy and do 30fps.

 

[Dictator93]

Look harder, 13:17 when he is hanging from the rock in full sunlight and just panning the camera around. Full of self shadows.

Maybe they aren't as obvious as in other games, but they are there.

I found at great example in the video btw to show how the shadow map is working. The objects on his body definitely self shadow, just in an inconsistent manner due to the shadow map resolution.

BRB: Making a GIF / image exposé.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

The distracting part and why they mention no self-shadowing is because you can't see it with his instruments on his clothes. It looks very very flat and unnatural. That's what they are mentioning in the article. The game appears to take shortcuts in places that really should be important. You are seeing the back of the character 90% of the time. I would have made every object cast real shadows on each other depending on the light and not just AO either.

Don't they say on the panel that a lot of stuff they were presenting hadn't even made its way into the build that was currently being showcased? I know we can only go off of what we have seen but it seems a odd omission.

 

[Lord Error]

I found at great example in the video btw to show how the shadow map is working. The objects on his body definitely self shadow, just in an inconsistent manner due to the shadow map resolution.

BRB: Making a GIF / image exposé.

Self shadows could be getting obscured due to Drake always having what they call (iirc) "hero lighting" which is there to make sure the character is always visible and in focus, no matter how busy things are visually with around him. If I understand correctly how it works, is that there's an extra light on him no matter what.

 

[Chinner]

I think you are right. In the presentation, Frank from Naughty Dog says the images shown at the panel have perfect lighting. Here is what he says: "I want to remind you guys. This is what we call a staged lighting room for the characters. Basically, this is basically like a perfect lighting for us to show off our model. But you guys might notice in game, there will be different lighting situations, you probably won't be able to see all the detail he has under those situations."

So basically, while the model is the same, the lighting is not. In the panel, they said this time around most of the detail is in the shaders and not in model. Since they showed they have the ability to scale the detail on the shaders, I think that is what they are doing based on different situations in the game. Naughty Dog showed the model going from looking like plastic to looking very realistic just by changing the level of detail on the shaders.

I think I agree, I've used your image as a base to create a rough comparison of Drake in different lighting.

There's like 4 different scenes here.

1: Dawn (sun rise)
2: Stage lighting
3. Sunny (roughly speaking)
4: Night (full moon).

 

[martino]

fixed

like it needs to be said a 99999 time....
nothing can be tell if not highly positive and if not what the point it's pre-alpha....
love sure make some being boring and uninteresting to speak with.

 

[photogaz]

The in depth analysis video shows how great the engine is, but there's something wrong every time I view it. I never think wow that looks great. It's technically amazing but it just doesn't look pretty of give me the wow factor.

 

[omonimo]

Exactly.

Exactly what? You said there isn't self shadow now we have discovered it's simply lower res, so you were completely wrong. I have the great suspect most of your complaints are completely unfair from the beginning because you don't even know where at look for.

 

[Raist]

That article claims that there's no self-shadowing on characters during gameplay, which is simply not true.

I stopped at "hair is a lot less detailed!!1!!" when they use a screen which is presumably showing superiority while you can't make out any detail because of the lighting. Hilarious.

04:54 when he is climbing the wall, you can see the shadow of his head on his shoulder.

Just a quick one.

He's probably going to tell that that it doesn't count because reasons. Or he wasn't talking about shadowing but something else actually.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Self shadows could be getting obscured due to Drake always having what they call (iirc) "hero lighting" which is there to make sure the character is always visible and in focus, no matter how busy things are visually with around him. If I understand correctly how it works, is that there's an extra light on him no matter what.

Yea, I'm not a big fan of that. But you are right. I see that a lot in games.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Exactly what? You said there isn't self shadow now we have discovered it's simply lower res, so you were completely wrong. I have the great suspect most of your complaints are completely unfair from the beginning because you don't even know where at look for.

If the shadow is so low res that you can't see it.. then what''s the point? It's certainly not making the image look better. To say, "Hey! It's there! It's just low res.. you are wrong!" doesn't really fix the problem that it's not making the character look believable (which was my point).

 

[amstradcpc]

If the shadow is so low res that you can't see it.. then what am I missing? The effect is not very useful. It's certainly not making the image look better.

You are trying too hard.Give us a rest.

 

[videogamephilosopher]

Why not just ask the developers? They were quick to address the first trailer for the game before anyone even questioned it.

1. Are you still targeting 60fps ?

2. Is the model geometry the same or his it changed since "E3 Drake". To my eyes the poly count looks lower. Am I wrong, I hope I am wrong ?

3. Can we expect the shader detail to be the same level of resolution as the E3 level and panel Drake ?

4. Is there a pre-render drake and a gameplay drake or is he one in the same ?

I know things change during development so I am not concerned one way or the other. I was content of the level of uncharted 2 drake.

One thing people should not be mad about is people calling things as they see them in the games (current state). Why because if it a developer says this is how somethings looks and it "appears" to be a step backwards it could cause confusion. From a marketing perspective I would not have allowed that tweet to go out.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

The in depth analysis video shows how great the engine is, but there's something wrong every time I view it. I never think wow that looks great. It's technically amazing but it just doesn't look pretty of give me the wow factor.

You do realize that unless you've seen it in person, you're seeing a terribly compressed version?

This looks phenomenal in comparison to everything else. Give the hand-wringing and "concern" a rest for once, guys. It's NAUGHTY DOG. I think they deserve more respect than that from the peanut gallery.

 

[Always-honest]

You are trying too hard.Give us a rest.

He loves Uncharted. He's helping ND making it the best game they can so he can play it on his

Spoiler

imaginary

PS4.
ND is now focussed on making even him happy. Thank him.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

If you watch the panel it's rather easy to see how they can change drake or his cloths.
They still most like trying to fool around with what they thinks look best .