SaucyJack
Member
Decline of the Western Civilisation pt III the social media years.
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Digital Foundry: PS4K / Neo spec leak is genuine, dev kits on their way to devs
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Decline of the Western Civilisation pt III the social media years.
Interesting, but to people saying devs are being forced to make a better running version of the game...
Are PC devs forced to make a different version of the game for every single configuration of hardware? Per my understanding, you're simply scaling your game to certain specs. You're not adding another, better copy of the game. I could be terribly wrong but I'm failing to see why this is even an issue. Your game will run as intended on the PS4, it just may run better on the PS4K. Whenever a new video card comes out and a game runs better on that one, do you suddenly feel gimped and forced to buy a new video card? Where's all the topics chastising nvidia for daring to put out a new line of cards a year after you bought your old one?
Maybe I'm drawing connections where there are none and maybe I'm making comparisons that aren't exactly fair, yet I feel like the majority of people complaining may have valid concerns but have little in the way of backing up their arguments.
Are PC devs forced to make a different version of the game for every single configuration of hardware? Per my understanding, you're simply scaling your game to certain specs. You're not adding another, better copy of the game. I could be terribly wrong but I'm failing to see why this is even an issue. Your game will run as intended on the PS4, it just may run better on the PS4K. Whenever a new video card comes out and a game runs better on that one, do you suddenly feel gimped and forced to buy a new video card? Where's all the topics chastising nvidia for daring to put out a new line of cards a year after you bought your old one?
Maybe I'm drawing connections where there are none and maybe I'm making comparisons that aren't exactly fair, yet I feel like the majority of people complaining may have valid concerns but have little in the way of backing up their arguments.
This is it. This is the time we need to take a stand as a community about an issue that Sony has dragged their feet on for a decade. If they are going to charge people more money for an upgraded model designed around 4K media then they need to put a god damn infrared port on it.
Audioboxer
Member
Well probably, but really, they need to use a WiFi chip that is more powerful than a fridges built in WiFi.
mhayze
Member
This is a good point, although the "oh no, I just bought a video card" posts are also inevitable on the PC side when a new video card is announced, albeit in much smaller numbers.
I don't think devs will do as little as they do on the PC side to test different cards and specs before shipping a game - there's a lot of console frame rate optimization (in a well made game) and they will probably retest a lot of shader settings, poly counts and fidelity options in various parts of the game to reach a new balance on the neo spec. It's not a whole new game, but it's a decent amount of work-hours to tweak, balance, retest - which scales with game content and expected quality.
After they get a game or two under their belt, devs will probably feel a lot better about this process, and have a better feel for what they can do with the new hardware. Some devs will no doubt go above and beyond to polish they neo experience to achieve that extra wow factor, and with some you might be convinced that there is no neo spec because it feels identical to the base spec.
nelsonroyale
Member
I feel the same way...I am not really seeing how this is going to entail so much more work.
Sodding_Gamer
Member
Wrong thread ignore!
CosmicQueso
Member
Finally! Wait, what would an IR port do?
CosmicQueso
Member
We already had a thread for this. Stop regurgitating the same source, which is Colin
Audioboxer
Member
He maybe missed it, but I mean, it's been glued to GAF page 1 for 24 hours.
Sodding_Gamer
Member
I'm no developer but surely pushing a game to run great on the ps4k, and then scaling things like textures, graphical effects, resolution down to get a good performance of the ps4, WILL make it look a bit naff.
Of course it's easy to slide settings down and get it running on a ps4, but it will look crap at first and will need extra work on the ps4 to get it more optimised, rather than just brute forcing a load of settings down until you get an acceptable frame rate.
Sorry if this post comes across a bit nonsensical. I'm finding it hard to type down what I'm thinking lmao.
I am sorry for not spending every single minute of my life here on GAF man. Apologies for the immeasurable grief I inflicted upon you with my regurgitation...
mugurumakensei
Member
Yea, any smart dev would work from the assuming the PS4K doesn't exist until they have got the PS4 version running well.
Then, if not CPU limited, set the frame rate cap to be higher or IQ. If CPU utilization is high, focus only on IQ(anti-aliasing, high-res shadows, LoD, etc)
Now, this all assumes that most graphics engine settings are configurable via files. This holds true for all multi plats that are playable on PC. I'd have to assume it probably holds true for first party studios as well.
Your acting like they are going to work with PS4K first and then downport to PS4. As we've said a billion times. Its easier for them to just continue how they have been doing making PS4 games and putting that direct code on PS4K with enhancements if they choose to enhance the game. Sony only demands parity with PS4, so it is literally the case that devs can put the same PS4 game they are already making on there and have it run.
The PS4 will continue to be the base standard just like XB1, its easier for everyone involved. That's just my view
That thread has been on page 1 since sometime yesterday. Just look a little before posting
Audioboxer
Member
You'd expect parts of the Sony SDK to at least take care of some sort of minor improvements. Whether it's some basic increase to FPS, or even just 4K upscaling.
I mean it has to be logical Sony can do some of the work for devs.
outunderthestars
Banned
Yeah but apparently that's not enough for some so-called experts.
mugurumakensei
Member
A lot of those things are done by the graphics engine. Devs don't really have to put much effort into scaling up supposing they use ue4, frostbite, cry engine, or other middleware. Even with in-house engines, it should be fine so long as the engine was developed so that settings could be configured at runtime.
Sodding_Gamer
Member
sure they might make games for ps4, and just add extra features (or non at all) to the ps4k version. But I wouldn't put it past Sony or devs who have got a bit ambitious and use the ps4k as a base to get their game looking amazing, and then port it to the ps4 and see a very, clear difference between the two.
That's just my view anyway. it's all speculation until Sony actually come out and tell us what they are doing.
shadowsdarknes
Member
So if your argument is that end of generation games are going to run poorly, then that' really just business as usual, right?
That could still happen without NEO.
Now with NEO, games might actually continue to run adequately.
dr_rus
Member
Fuck yeah! They should integrate a Betamax player as well, this shit's been lost for too long.
Audioboxer
Member
The more interesting fight will me on multiplayer games! Although most MP games tend to try and go for 60FPS regardless, and sacrifice resolution to 900p.
Real bickering will start if some on MP have 30FPS, and others 60FPS. A few FPS difference is nothing.
How is this different from multiplayer PC? I'm sure there are players that run certain multiplayer games in a different quality/framerate than others. Altough I guess that on PC you have the luxury to drop settings to maintain a competitive framerate.
iceatcs
Junior Member
I feel there won't be allowed to have both different framerate for MP mode. Resolution or other graphics setting are fine.
Again there is some cross-platform MP, so I think there is the chance that I'm wrong about it.
Audioboxer
Member
Because it's a new concept for console gamers, and the COD kids. Although at least COD is always likely to aim for 60FPS.
It shouldn't really be an issue as most competitive MP games on consoles are now going for 60FPS. Even UC4 is.
You can drop settings, as you mention. Consoles have been touted as a level playing field for multiplayer, but that might not happen any more. It's an argument that appears in PC/console debate every now and then.
It shouldn't be an issue for most games.
nelsonroyale
Member
Yeah, that is the way I think would make most sense to go. They absolutely should not compromise the experience of base PS4 games, but also not make it too much effort to add on bells and whistles.
Isn't the rumor that this is the case for GOW4? Osirisblack's thread seemed to heavily imply this. I'm sure that multiplats will use the XB1 as base as it is much cheaper but I doubt it's going to be true for first party games.
VincentMatts
Member
How is this any different then what they already do on pc? And also, what if xbox does the same? If they aint happy now, just wait till xbox announce theirs.
Thats pretty much a guarantee. The lower spec ps4 will always be the one they make them for, then port upwards.
Yup, they're practically the same thing! An industry standard for media device control and an extinct analog tape media.
Nah, let's stick with half-assed TV pass through control, controllers with 8 hour battery life, proprietary Bluetooth remotes and $20 adapters.
mrmickfran
Member
Great, now I have to wait another year to buy a PS4.
Goddammit.
Goddammit.
Glendemonium
Member
I'm going to play wait and see with this. My PS4 isn't even a year old and it broke and awaiting it's return from the warehouse... I'll just keep playing on my "old model" until I decide to move to PC.
dr_rus
Member
Or you can simply use the BT remote which has way more than 8 hours of battery life and they can open the BT media control API to any BT remote on the planet. An even better way would be to provide network control for any subnet connected device like your smartphone - via a PS app for example.
I don't recall that statement, only that they were going to be taking advantage of PS4K for GOW4, hence an up port still is the most likely. They have been making GOW4 for years, long before PS4K was a thing.
Negotiator
Member
FROM's engine is single threaded and DX11/GNMX compatible.
AMD has said that DX12 can eradicate stuttering.
I don't think that From is going to reprogram their graphics engine, unless perhaps they get a helping hand from ICE Team... is Sony willing to cough up the cost?
thelastword
Banned
It's more than likely that a dev drops resolution or settings on the PS4 to maintain 60fps for a competitive environment. Don't assume that suddenly 60fps PS4 games will become 30fps. They may not look as good as Neo code, not have the same AF, effects, AA and general fidelity, but all of these can be scaled down to achieve 60fps as devs are currently doing, that won't change.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Agreed.
OsirisBlack
Banned
Yes it is .
No they will not, framerate and resolution bumps are allowed just no exclusive neo content. A good example a neo Call of Duty could run at 1080p 60fps with a mix of PC high and ultra settings while PS4 would run at 900p 60fps PC high settings.
This is just the baseline minimum and what is available on the first devkit things could change for the better. I seriously doubt it as it would make the gap between the PS4 and the PSNeo even more pronounced.
The devkit does not.
Again anyone looking for a decent trade in better hope the OG holds steady at $299 and Neo is $399 if the OG drops too drastically in price I cannot see Mr. Wayne allowing anything more than $100-$150 in trade credit.
Depending on how this thing is marketed especially if the price is close I can see this hurting OG ps4 sales . For the price of a game and a season pass you can get a better PS4. If I were in the market for a console that's the one to get.
That name needs to die its horrid there is nothing poor about the ps4.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
OsirisBlack said:
I know this is just an example but I would be disappointed if Sony/devs limited the changes to what you say here. Over 4TF and possibly Polaris should upgrade games much more than that.
Imagine you have a 3 year old i5 2500K, 8GB Ram and a HD7850/70 and upgraded to Polaris 10. Getting 180P and a few Ultra settings with that upgrade would piss me off!
OsirisBlack
Banned
I agree but I don't think we'll see games that really push the PSNeo until the heavy hitters drop. I think any game that's 900p on PS4 will probably fit the bill to melt eyes on the Neo. Thinking the next battlefield, FFXV, CoD, Uncharted 4, Andromeda and GoW4 will really push the system.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
This is the area where Sony could come unstuck. They can't expect the hardcore to buy into the Neo and then expect them to accept tiny upgrades so OG PS4 owners don't feel bad.
rahulkadukar
Member
I think the real reason for releasing this is 4K Blu ray support which needs HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 which the current PS4 does not have.
This might sell well solely because it will be one of the cheapest 4K Blu ray players
This might sell well solely because it will be one of the cheapest 4K Blu ray players
OsirisBlack
Banned
I completely agree with you it will be interesting to see what their message is and how they decide to market it.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Or this could just be their new rendition of a 'slim' model. Retail reports we had already said the unit was smaller (slim), thus with the die shrinks, prices coming down (making a jump to the APU more cost effective), it probably made more sense for them to have this combined with a slim due to cost. Thus these will be the new PS4Slim with added benefits for 4K media and the ability of better performance in games and VR.
Yes it will. My gut is that this is your new slim, marketed with things for those who have 4K sets (just picked one up 3 weeks ago) can take advantage of, and those certain enthusiasts or gamers who want more juice have a treat as well. There will probably not be an OG PS4 Slim since this is it. So those wanting to jump into a PS4 can do so with the cheaper OG as they phase those out eventually, like they do with slim revisions, or get a beefed up slim. Software will be the same software, which we know already.
"Here is your new PS4 Slim, with enhanced features to take advantage of the blistering 4K adoption, and performance boosts on games and VR with the same PS4 software library you currently enjoy."
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I agree with that DeepEnigma. Having two SKU's would cripple and compromise both.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I like this.
Ocarina_117
Banned
This may be a silly question - will the Neo run games off the same disks as the PS4 version? Or will separate disks be sold for each SKU?