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[onQ123]

you know i was clearly talking in terms of AAA titles as i mentioned later in the post. Obviously the PS4 is it is could render simple games in 4k...

1 thing I know is 720P games look better than the sd games & that it would take more work to get a SD (640 x 480 or lower) game to look good enough for it to be worth the effort of making a SD game instead of a 720P game.

I also know that 8MP pictures look a lot nicer than 2MP pictures when taking with the same camera.

Where am I going with this? You say no AAA titles will be 4K but how are you gauging what a AAA title is? if you're going by visuals & the games look better on the PS4K at 4K with some things turned down can you say that it's not a AAA title?

You can use cheaper AA solutions & other things.

 

[Inuhanyou]

So if there's a performance parity that will have PS4k players have upper hand / advantage for games like FPS, who will we blame?

Likewise, Sony explicitly and repeatedly states that developers cannot offer exclusive gameplay options or special unlockables for NEO players—so don’t expect NEO owners to get a level editor or a special Rocket League car that you won’t have access to on your original PS4. That said, so long as both systems have the same feature, the NEO can run an improved version. A local co-op game that features four players on the base PS4 could offer an eight player co-op mode on the NEO, for instance. But again, don't expect those differences to transfer to online modes.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Renekton's playing you.

My post is neither tongue-in-cheek nor a meltdown just merely stating Sony's hardware has been of a lesser quality this gen and early reports of the Neo seem to suggest a couple of baffing omissions which could actually improve the system quite a bit and imo really should've been included in the first iteration of the Ps4 (4K Blu-Ray drive and AC wifi).

My advice would be not to get too hung up on other people's opinions/comments.

Sony definitely should have delayed the PS4 a couple of years to make UHD Blu-ray standard!

People wanting a 399 blu ray drive in this thing, do you want to be priced out of oblivion?

Why do people think BD-ROM drives cost hundreds of dollars?

 

[Putty]

Renekton's playing you.


Sony definitely should have delayed the PS4 a couple of years to make UHD Blu-ray standard!


Why do people think BD-ROM drives cost hundreds of dollars?

And how much at cost do you think a UHD BR drive would be?

 

[Shin-Ra]

And how much at cost do you think a UHD BR drive would be?

Roughly the same as the current drive.

 

[formasymphonic]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. After seeing better consoles mid way through, What happens next gen when new consoles are announced? Are Sony and MS expecting to have the same rapid early adopter uptake that they've had this time? Or will they get burned by a portion of that demo thinking "I'll wait for PS5.5 / XB2.5" / "maybe I'll just build a PC instead".

Obviously there isn't going to be a complete shift - but MS and Sony really need to be wary of the message they are sending out by releasing these now.

Likewise, Sony explicitly and repeatedly states that developers cannot offer exclusive gameplay options or special unlockables for NEO players—so don’t expect NEO owners to get a level editor or a special Rocket League car that you won’t have access to on your original PS4. That said, so long as both systems have the same feature, the NEO can run an improved version. A local co-op game that features four players on the base PS4 could offer an eight player co-op mode on the NEO, for instance. But again, don't expect those differences to transfer to online modes.

They don't have to offer it deliberately, if your game is getting fluctuating frame rates on PS4 but solid frame rates on PS4K, that doesn't have to be an intentionally planned thing at all. But it's still a shitty discrepancy/disadvantage when you are all playing the same PvP modes against each other.

 

[J-Rzez]

I wonder what the cost for Implementing a 4K UHD drive will be?

Not much considering the rest of the hardware is there already, even overbuilt at that. As far as I'm concerned Samsung and Panasonic are price gouging early adopters, people dying for a player to benefit their UHD tv's. Maybe its to recoup some of their R&D and to pay for their metal bodies, but I think its gouging. Its not like its massively new tech here, just built upon tech.

 

[Garani]

But it's still a shitty discrepancy/disadvantage when you are all playing the same PvP modes against each other.

So, if I have a 20/1 ADSL and I get fragged by someone with fiber, can I drop the blame on to Sony? Just saying

There are a ton of variables influencing PvP modes: some are humans, some technological. It's life.

 

[KingBroly]

I still feel like devs are going to power creep this thing and make games on PS4 run worse and worse, just like at the end of last gen, except no mid-gen refresh.

 

[TAJ]

are the $400 UHD BD players just a bare drive? or are they PLAYERS that you have on your entertainment center under your TV

They're full-featured standalone players. Wi-fi, app support, the usual. Sony players are conspicuously absent.
Here's what a $400 UHD player looks like.

http://postimage.org/

 

[kyser73]

So if there's a performance parity that will have PS4k players have upper hand / advantage for games like FPS, who will we blame?

I dunno - who do PC owners blame when this happens?

 

[DieH@rd]

I am very glad that GiantBomb mentioned that Neo will finally support 1080p60 DVR. As someone who is from time to time providing video content for local videogaming site, this is a great addition.

And since DVR can achieve 1080p60 for local videos, I expect that RemotePlay and SharePlay will also get same support.

 

[The God]

I dunno - who do PC owners blame when this happens?

Their graphics settings (that they can change to decrease any gap)?

 

[Nzyme32]

I still feel like devs are going to power creep this thing and make games on PS4 run worse and worse, just like at the end of last gen, except no mid-gen refresh.

I think the simple fact is that things are going to go that way much sooner than previous generations anyway, since the PS4 and Xbox One are quite weak in terms of performance.

With PC as popular as it is and ever evolving, NX looking to be more powerful and possibly taking third party more seriously, Xbox also looking to use its ecosystem and a new console with more power, and all of them chasing new 4k content (not games outside of PC), services etc - an updated PS4K makes sense for their business. Regardless of whether the quality plumets on PS4, they will still try to out compete the Xbox One and vice versa as an "equal playing field", which is why I doubt a particularly massive drop in the near term. As people adopt the new systems things will shift in terms of what is developed for primarily, and high resolution and frame rate stability will probably be sacrificed on the older hardware.

 

[Dictator93]

R9 380x 2048
Ploaris 2304
R9 290 2560

Please bear in mind, techpowerup have max settings on. Usually console is medium to high, different LOD and also save a few frames with custom AF.

Not saying all games will be 4k, just that it could be feasible and these games aren't Tetris or some "indie rubbish". Maybe 1440, 2880x1620 or whatever, world's your oyster. I can often do 2880x1620 and 3200x1800 with higher than console settings on my 970 and capping to 30fps. AC Unity is at max settings HBAO FXAA at 2880x1620 or slightly above capped at 30fps. Should look good on a 4k mon.

Gran Turismo for example has had some weird resolutions 1080i on PS2. GT51280x1080. GT6 1440x1080. Can totally see Kaz doing some crazy res with upscale to get it looking nicer.

Two things to note here that are pretty important:
1. dedicated GPUs have much more bandwidth.
2. dedicated GPUs also have much more dedicated VRAM to use. The PS4K has a total of 5.5GB of total available ram. As you are increasing resolution you are also increasing the size of the framebuffer by quite a lot in quite a number of engines (CryEngine G-Buffer from 1080p to 4K increases by about 600-700 mb in my tests). I honestly think bandwidth and something like-Gbuffer size will get in the way of games hitting 4K. That and the fact that GPU could not shade nearly enough at that res.

 

[Nzyme32]

I dunno - who do PC owners blame when this happens?

They don't really blame anyone, since people understand their own spec vs requirements and how they can balance to their preferred performance with change in setting they are happy to compromise. Meanwhile the guys that have no chance of reaching high performance / 60fps / 144fps are not blaming anyone either since they know what their hardware is vs the spec and can either join in and still have an enjoyable time casually, or they can get the game and upgrade later knowing they can get better performance, or they can wait / ignore the game. No one complains that someone at 144fps and 21:9 in an FPS is having an unfair advantage since many don't care and are more concerned of their own performance, or understand someone spent more to get there. Obviously in a competitive tournament this would not be tolerated.

Where this changes is if performance issues are there / poor optimisation / port / perf locks / shitty consolised design that isn't compatible with certain genres or expectations for input / performance. In the majority of cases this is blamed on the developer / publisher, loudly, since there is no overseeing platform holder that will step in and make things happen. Such games are either modded / forced to work around or simply utterly out competed by other games, forcing devs to improve for their own products and keep up with competitors to be successful.

 

[killatopak]

I don't believe we'll be getting 4k games anyway. As long as they hit 1080p and 60fps along with the most possible effect without affecting the previous two then it's good to go. Memory won't be a problem.

 

[Meccs]

The good thing is that I can now spend that 400 bucks every 4-5 years on a new GPU for my PC. I'm not buying another console that I "have" to upgrade like my PC to stay juicy. Heck, I spend 300€ on my current GPU a few years ago and still can run basically all the games I play in 60 fps.

Due to graphical options in games a mid-range PC has now a longer life span than a console if the PS4K rumors are true. With Steam Big Picture and Steam Link etc. it's also so easy to play on your TV.

What I expect is that they most likely still can't guarantee 60 fps with the PS4K and will have an option to "unlock frames" or just leave it at 30 and up the textures or something like that.

There are 35.9 million PS4s. Why would you put in the extra afford for the few that will buy the PS4.5?

 

[SGRX]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. After seeing better consoles mid way through, What happens next gen when new consoles are announced? Are Sony and MS expecting to have the same rapid early adopter uptake that they've had this time? Or will they get burned by a portion of that demo thinking "I'll wait for PS5.5 / XB2.5" / "maybe I'll just build a PC instead".

This is definitely where I'll be going forward. Given that it's taken this generation over a year to build a decent software library, there's no good reason not to just wait for the mid-gen refresh, pay roughly the same hardware costs, snap up whatever interesting exclusives came out in the first few years at a discount, and enjoy the enhanced performance. Sony and MS had better do a LOT better with launch titles for the PS5/XB2 than they did this time around.

 

[Meccs]

I think Sony is trying out the Apple route where you have the iPhone X with new features and then the iPhone XS that is just a bit faster. The consumer can upgrade if he wants or wait for the real new model. They probably look at the phones and think "people spend 500 bucks every two years on a new iPhone, lets make this work for consoles". Sony isn't Apple though and the PS4 no iPhone.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I think Sony is trying out the Apple route where you have the iPhone X with new features and then the iPhone XS that is just a bit faster. The consumer can upgrade if he wants or wait for the real new model. They probably look at the phones and think "people spend 500 bucks every two years on a new iPhone, lets make this work for consoles". Sony isn't Apple though and the PS4 no iPhone.

No, they are not Apple, but the console does cost less over a 4 or 5 year period than it does for most people to buy iPhones, who usually get new ones every year or two, sometimes paying the full price (which IS more expensive than a PS4 each time).

I mean, for me, I'm a person that would definitely upgrade my GPU every 2 to 3 years for my PC. Since this thing can play all the games the PS4 has to offer, just better, then all power to Sony. I know it's the first time that a console has upgraded hardware and you have to buy it but is still part of the same line of products, but it's still kind of similar to how the old consoles had tons of add-on hardware. The difference was, a lot of those add-on hardware parts made it so that you had to buy entirely new games/versions to play them. With this, all PS4 games will work on both versions.

 

[wazoo]

This is definitely where I'll be going forward. Given that it's taken this generation over a year to build a decent software library, there's no good reason not to just wait for the mid-gen refresh, pay roughly the same hardware costs, snap up whatever interesting exclusives came out in the first few years at a discount, and enjoy the enhanced performance. Sony and MS had better do a LOT better with launch titles for the PS5/XB2 than they did this time around.

There will not be any "building a new library". the PS5 will be a PS4K bis and history will repeat. The very notion of starting over from scratch is a stupid thing that is a consequence of waiting a long time between gens and having incompatible hardware and API.

 

[Meccs]

No, they are not Apple, but the console does cost less over a 4 or 5 year period than it does for most people to buy iPhones, who usually get new ones every year or two, sometimes paying the full price (which IS more expensive than a PS4 each time).

Yes but this now another thing they want you to spend money on every 2 or 3 years. People are used to doing that for PC, for iPhones... there is a limit on how much money people can and want spend on stuff.

 

[GinoFelino]

I wonder if the haters were happy to see PS3 get increasingly long in the tooth.

I wonder if they enjoyed the horrendous framerates and resolutions of the last years of PS3.

This is the best thing Sony and Microsoft could do to avoid their console feeling 'old'.

Even Amazon's Fire TV can do 4K while PS4 is stuck with HD. Consoles shouldn't feel obsolete before their true successor releases, and this is the only way to stop that from happening.

 

[Hawk269]

They're full-featured standalone players. Wi-fi, app support, the usual. Sony players are conspicuously absent.
Here's what a $400 UHD player looks like.

http://postimage.org/

I picked up that very Samsung 4k Blu Ray player today and it is a pretty great device. While 4k looks amazing, it is HDR that really makes a big difference in combination with the upped resolution.

 

[Mezoly]

The good thing is that I can now spend that 400 bucks every 4-5 years on a new GPU for my PC. I'm not buying another console that I "have" to upgrade like my PC to stay juicy. Heck, I spend 300€ on my current GPU a few years ago and still can run basically all the games I play in 60 fps.

Due to graphical options in games a mid-range PC has now a longer life span than a console if the PS4K rumors are true. With Steam Big Picture and Steam Link etc. it's also so easy to play on your TV.

What I expect is that they most likely still can't guarantee 60 fps with the PS4K and will have an option to "unlock frames" or just leave it at 30 and up the textures or something like that.

There are 35.9 million PS4s. Why would you put in the extra afford for the few that will buy the PS4.5?

In 2013 there were 150 million ps3 & x360 consoles why put in the extra efforts in Ps4 and xone?

 

[psn]

R9 380x 2048
Ploaris 2304
R9 290 2560

Please bear in mind, techpowerup have max settings on. Usually console is medium to high, different LOD and also save a few frames with custom AF.

Seems like I'm still safe with my 290x for this year... Not sure if I upgrade my ps4 to the neo or my graphics card.
But I think I will upgrade to the neo and upgrade my gpu next year.

 

[tzare]

Yes but this now another thing they want you to spend money on every 2 or 3 years. People are used to doing that for PC, for iPhones... there is a limit on how much money people can and want spend on stuff.

smartphones have already 'peaked', and people find less useful to spend money as often as before.
It is a new scenario, and makes sense since they went the x86 route for both XBO and PS4. It had to happen sometime anyway. Consoles have to evolve with the market too.
Many people complained about consoles being underpowered. Now they may have upgraded hardware. Complains again oll over the place.
It will be execution what will make this a success or a mistake: if ps4 games are still fine, just like they are now, and ps4K owners can have better versions of those games too, everyone will be happy. And the market will be tested , if enough demand, this will happen again.
And people saying i will go PC only if this happens, well, i doubt it will have a huge impact in the console market, people still want a relatively easy way to play games, that is why consoles are still popular and high end pc gaming is not as widespread. Plus some people still play console exclusive games, care for trophies or achievements.

Let's see how things go in case PS4K is lauched. And 3 year upgrades is not that bad imo, the more options , the better for consumers.

 

[Henke]

No, they are not Apple, but the console does cost less over a 4 or 5 year period than it does for most people to buy iPhones, who usually get new ones every year or two, sometimes paying the full price (which IS more expensive than a PS4 each time).

I mean, for me, I'm a person that would definitely upgrade my GPU every 2 to 3 years for my PC. Since this thing can play all the games the PS4 has to offer, just better, then all power to Sony. I know it's the first time that a console has upgraded hardware and you have to buy it but is still part of the same line of products, but it's still kind of similar to how the old consoles had tons of add-on hardware. The difference was, a lot of those add-on hardware parts made it so that you had to buy entirely new games/versions to play them. With this, all PS4 games will work on both versions.

People value phones as a necessity these days, consoles are a hobby. Not every consumer is a Gaffer willing to fork out loads on gaming hardware on a regular basis. People use their phone all day every day though, so that's different.

 

[AmyS]

They're full-featured standalone players. Wi-fi, app support, the usual. Sony players are conspicuously absent.
Here's what a $400 UHD player looks like.

http://postimage.org/

Sony players are conspicuously absent.

Sony players are conspicuously absent.

Sony players are conspicuously absent.

Sony players are conspicuously absent.

HYPE

 

[SGRX]

There will not be any "building a new library". the PS5 will be a PS4K bis and history will repeat. The very notion of starting over from scratch is a stupid thing that is a consequence of waiting a long time between gens and having incompatible hardware and API.

Backward compatibility is nice, and definitely a must-have feature if they're shifting to iterative releases, but the generational leap becoming a soft gap rather than a dividing line doesn't really change the mechanics of the argument.

PS5-enhanced titles will either be incompatible with the 4x generation, playable on the PS4K only, or playable on all three. I'm assuming either the first or second example for the sake of brevity, and because it wouldn't make sense to ask developers to optimize for platforms that are woefully outdated.

No incentive really for third party developers to retroactively enhance existing titles, unless the titles are recent enough that they're still deploying new content, or it turns into something like a pattern of enhancing titles at the start of a new numerical generation as paid DLC. Forward compatibility is a disincentive to buy in before the refresh, since you're not missing out on much of anything (poorly optimized early titles that fail to take full advantage of the new hardware), but lack of forward compatibility is not an incentive to buy in, since (barring a massive departure from this generation's launch) the library of PS5-specific titles probably won't be worthwhile until the mid-gen refresh anyway.

I'm not saying they can't make it work, but it seems like it's going to be a difficult balancing act to make it worthwhile for people to upgrade more than once per "generation".

 

[nelsonroyale]

People value phones as a necessity these days, consoles are a hobby. Not every consumer is a Gaffer willing to fork out loads on gaming hardware on a regular basis. People use their phone all day every day though, so that's different.

Phones are useful, checking your emails on them as well is. Otherwise, people use mobiles these days mostly for non-essential stuff. Personally, I find it utterly bizarre why people upgrade their phones so often, given there is little gain in actual useful functionality for the vast majority. It has mostly been strong marketing and also peoples addiction to social media. I view mobiles as essential, smartphones as vaguely essential, and most of the functionality as under the entertainment bracket.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

Isn't this basically a win win situation for Sony? I mean, If VR really takes off, many people will want to have it. The hardcore gamer probably won't wait long with upgrading and the casual gamer out there just sticks with the PS4. Other casual gamers who don't have a console yet will probably buy PS4 because it's undoubtedly going to be cheaper and Sony will be selling both consoles that way.

I don't really see this plan blowing up in their face.

 

[GHG]

Isn't this basically a win win situation for Sony? I mean, If VR really takes off, many people will want to have it. The hardcore gamer probably won't wait long with upgrading and the casual gamer out there just sticks with the PS4. Other casual gamers who don't have a console yet will probably buy PS4 because it's undoubtedly going to be cheaper and Sony will be selling both consoles that way.

I don't really see this plan blowing up in their face.

But what if everyone goes and builds themselves gaming PC's?

 

[OBias]

HYPE

This is for the UHD players.

 

[Carn82]

Personally, I find it utterly bizarre why people upgrade their phones so often, given there is little gain in actual useful functionality for the vast majority.

I totally agree. But many people are on a mobile plan/subscription and pay 400/500/600 (or more..) euros/dollars a year. imho, those plans are only viable and interesting if you really want to have a new phone every 2 years or so.

 

[Rymuth]

Finally caught up. I can see why this thread made Abdiel mad (although, personally, I'm enjoying the circus)

Isn't this basically a win win situation for Sony? I mean, If VR really takes off, many people will want to have it. The hardcore gamer probably won't wait long with upgrading and the casual gamer out there just sticks with the PS4. Other casual gamers who don't have a console yet will probably buy PS4 because it's undoubtedly going to be cheaper and Sony will be selling both consoles that way.

I don't really see this plan blowing up in their face.

Especially if the OG PS4 gets priced at $250. Sales will blow up.

I'm excited for the new console (and NX) but I'm also drooling at all the prospect of NPD threads picking up again.

 

[Zaki2407]

I hope Cerny is the one who unveil this thing at E3 2016. His PS4 presentation back in February 2013 was really great.

 

[Meccs]

One thing is for sure. The argument that PC gaming is too expensive dies if they release a new $400€ console every 2-3 years.

 

[kyser73]

They don't really blame anyone, since people understand their own spec vs requirements and how they can balance to their preferred performance with change in setting they are happy to compromise. Meanwhile the guys that have no chance of reaching high performance / 60fps / 144fps are not blaming anyone either since they know what their hardware is vs the spec and can either join in and still have an enjoyable time casually, or they can get the game and upgrade later knowing they can get better performance, or they can wait / ignore the game. No one complains that someone at 144fps and 21:9 in an FPS is having an unfair advantage since many don't care and are more concerned of their own performance, or understand someone spent more to get there. Obviously in a competitive tournament this would not be tolerated.

Where this changes is if performance issues are there / poor optimisation / port / perf locks / shitty consolised design that isn't compatible with certain genres or expectations for input / performance. In the majority of cases this is blamed on the developer / publisher, loudly, since there is no overseeing platform holder that will step in and make things happen. Such games are either modded / forced to work around or simply utterly out competed by other games, forcing devs to improve for their own products and keep up with competitors to be successful.

Thank you for a comprehensive answer to a flippant reply!

I think the general thing is that PC owners deal with the issue as they're used to it, but for console-only people a lot of things happening this gen (the issues with The Division for example) are new and the Don't Like The Things.

 

[ArtHands]

But what if everyone goes and builds themselves gaming PC's?

Then make the PSVR compatible with PC.

 

[family_guy]

I picked up that very Samsung 4k Blu Ray player today and it is a pretty great device. While 4k looks amazing, it is HDR that really makes a big difference in combination with the upped resolution.

If Sony updates their app and also have HDR support, the Samsung will be dead in the water unless they drop the price in half. I will say it's nice that the Samsung has dual HDMI outs so that it supports your AV Receiver if it's not HDCP 2.2 compliant.

 

[Sid]

I wonder when they plan to release the PS5 if this thing comes out in 2016/17....

 

[dr_rus]

This is for the UHD players.

Sub-UHD players.

 

[Unknown One]

But what if everyone goes and builds themselves gaming PC's?

Then more games for PC players. Hopefully Japanese developers goes more into PC gaming so I don't have to buy consoles ever again.

 

[Audioboxer]

But what if everyone goes and builds themselves gaming PC's?

In a dream world far far away for some PC gamers....

Point being taking this what if and applying real logic to it falls flat on it's face. PC gaming is great, but people never all heard to one thing. Every brand, style an option of a form of entertainment has it's buyers and will continue to do so. Consoles constantly get attacked with "x reason is why PC gaming is taking over", and none of them ever come through. People enjoy Sony, MS and Nintendo platforms, and will continue to do so.

 

[Neuromancer]

The hype machine behind new systems often mirrors the precarious Icarus myth - fly too close to the sun, promise too much, and you're just as likely to tumble out of the sky as deliver on your potential. Rumors have promised so much with the PS4 Neo that it's hard to see how Sony could succeed, how they couldn't burn up in the harsh heat of audience expectation - of the potential assigned to a predecessor now more than a couple years past. That heat already turned on two Sega consoles, scourging them beyond all rhyme or reason. Playing the part of a better Daedalus, Sony has given the PS4 Neo the wings to fly true - with just a few scorch marks to show for it.

 

[valkyre]

Developers Unhappy With Sony’s Plans for PS4.5, According to Report

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2016/04/19/ps4-5-neo-sony-playstation-4/

 

[KooopaKid]

Sony keeps making me wait to buy their PS4. 3 years into this gen, great job.

 

[pastrami]

Developers Unhappy With Sony’s Plans for PS4.5, According to Report

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2016/04/19/ps4-5-neo-sony-playstation-4/

TIL that a tweet of an anecdote is a report.