come on, Don't drop to shitty insults like this. I don't agree w/ everything he is saying (I am not into Idol stuff or Moe in general so I don't know if he's right or not) but you can at least respect his opinion and not do this shitty arrogant I'm better than you stuff. Its why these threads die...
I just don't see why Rise can't be a sexual character AND a cool fun one.
I will warn you that loli is usually used in a derogatory manner here, so even though you used it in a more appropriate manner, I'm not sure if that is the right choice of words.
Edit: Cheerleaders are not idols.
Which is why they didn't. The image they used is not sexualized in the slightest -- she looks like a dancer. Which is pretty much what she should look like, since it's a dancing game.
Is there any image from Dancing All Night that would've been MORE appropriate? I mean, that just seems like a wholly tame image to me. Nothing unfortunate about it -- it represents the product well.
-Tom
I just don't see why Rise can't be a sexual character AND a cool fun one.
Isn't she...?
I'm just saying that if someone doesn't recognize Teddie and what he represents I doubt they're exactly in the target audience for a Persona 4 idol dancing game.I don't have a problem with your suggestion but I don't have a problem with the original either so I was just throwing something out there.
I'm an adult, if I want porn I'll find it.
Polluting the media and art I consume with it is not desirable.
I'm just saying that if someone doesn't recognize Teddie and what he represents I doubt they're exactly in the target audience for a Persona 4 idol dancing game.
I don't think calling it "mental gymnastics" is without merit. Especially in regards to the chasteness point.
Okay but that's still part of the process. Rise has photobooks too I'm sure. It's part of being an idol is photobooks, it's part of the culture. So it's a bit to say "well my idealized view of idols are not sexualized" well sure, fine, but in reality photo books exist.
Okay, as someone who's actually been there as a dancer, I have to call this out. No, Rise does not look like a dancer. Dancers generally wear outfits that are well suited to dancing. Leotards, bodysuits, tights, loose tops and pants that won't fall down or rip, etc. They generally do not have their outfits in ways that would leave to wardrobe failure or constant panty shots.
Rise looks like an idol. Her outfit is picked for more appearance than accessibility. And in the western world, midriffs and exposed bras are generally considered very sexual. Even among the older students in performances and stuff that I saw, you didn't see outfits like that.
I don't really have a problem with Rise's sexuality myself. She's always been the sexual and happy go lucky type, even long before all the spinoffs. Heck, she's posing in a bikini in the opening to Persona 4. >_>
But I definitely do disagree with wyrdwad's that she is not sexual.
... Arguing that something should be sterilized because it doesn't happen to hit your kink button in the right place is even worse -- it's ridiculously egotistical to assume everything out there should be tailor made to your liking, let alone not to offend you.
Is this solely restricted to western media though?
Oh sure, but if someone sees a cartoon bear they might just figure it's something for kids, all I mean is wrong impression. Not that it's gonna lose customers.
I know you're trying to keep the peace, but at a certain point, I personally do not have respect for someone who spins pandering, misogynistic content into freedom of artistic merit or whatever the hell. If limiting "artistic expression" helps eliminate characters like Quiet (only because she was mentioned before) then limit the shit out it. And the hand waving of "No you don't get it, having the boobs hang out like that makes sense guys!" is just as bad. No respect for that.
Okay, as someone who's actually been there as a dancer, I have to call this out. No, Rise does not look like a dancer. Dancers generally wear outfits that are well suited to dancing. Leotards, bodysuits, tights, loose tops and pants that won't fall down or rip, etc. They generally do not have their outfits in ways that would leave to wardrobe failure or constant panty shots.
Rise looks like an idol. Her outfit is picked for more appearance than accessibility. And in the western world, midriffs and exposed bras are generally considered very sexual. Even among the older students in performances and stuff that I saw, you didn't see outfits like that.
While I'm a little bit familiar with the Japanese idol scene and Japanese customs, I don't actually know for sure. Hence why I didn't say and merely only stated it from a western perspective. It would be interesting to have a third opinion on this from someone who has actually lived in Japan an extensive amount of time and/or familiar with idols.
And now we're hitting the slope of thinking for what women want. You can find tons of cosplay of these specific Rise outfit actually, and these are ladies that are willingly wearing it and happily mind you. What does that say about them?Is it ridiculously egoistical for women to want to be portrayed evenly without tits and ass hanging out all over the place?
OK. If that's your take on this, then I suppose any discussion I might have had with you is over. If you will not respect my opinion on this matter, then I cannot respect yours either.
I regret that our discussion has to end this way, however, as there is always plenty of room to disagree with someone respectfully.
I should have been a bit clearer: her outfit is that of an IDOL dancer, specifically. Not a Western dancer.
-Tom
Don't even get me started on the vita idea of "fanservice."
Why not? They're all dressed appropriately and weren't designed to appease or titillate. Not to mention that their full designs aren't so over designed that they become blobs.
And now we're hitting the slope of thinking for what women want. You can find tons of cosplay of these specific Rise outfit actually, and these are ladies that are willingly wear it and happily mind you. What does that say about them?
Every time I see Zarya it pisses me off that they made her hair pink, it looks so bad.
They should have just done this instead.
No actually I thought you were attacking Rises outfit, while Quiet is something else altogether. That said Stephanie Joosten actually liked what she did and the character too.You think a real-life woman deciding to put on a costume she enjoys is the same as Kojima creating Quiet? Really?
...really?
If you're going to say that, though, then please explain why. I'm explaining every point I'm making in great detail, and would appreciate the same respect in the responses I receive.
I suppose that's fair enough. I do see a general disconnect, however, between the intended audience for idol singers and the fringe audience, as much of Japanese otaku culture and economy is based on that very disconnect. Hentai doujinshi, for example, is sold in stores while the IP owners look the other way, because they know they'll make extra money from the additional fringe exposure created by it. That doesn't make Pokemon a sexualized show, however -- it just means that people will sink to literally any depths for money, including openly allowing and supporting the sexualization of Pokemon characters.
Idol singers are somewhat more complicit in this, I suppose, in that they allow photographers to get pictures of them in swimsuits with full knowledge of how they'll be used -- but that's true of Justin Bieber and One Direction as well (sexy calendars have always been a thing). That doesn't make sexy posing a main focus of their careers, nor does it make sexy posing a main focus of the majority of idol singers' careers (and indeed, there are countless idol singers who refuse to be a part of such things altogether).
So as far as I'm concerned, that's just the inevitable cash-grab that accompanies fame. It's not inherently a part of who an idol singer is or what he/she represents.
I think Fanservice means something that I don't really understand. I always thought fan service meant insider call backs to previous games and stuff, but the context it's used here usually means gratuitious creepy sexuality for no reason in a game.
In that case, I love fan service that is a call back to a previous game or series. I hate fan service that puts unneeded sexuality into a game and just turns me off to it.
You think a real-life woman deciding to put on a costume she enjoys is the same as Kojima creating Quiet? Really?
...really?
I know you're trying to keep the peace, but at a certain point, I personally do not have respect for someone who spins pandering, misogynistic content into freedom of artistic merit or whatever the hell. If limiting "artistic expression" helps eliminate characters like Quiet (only because she was mentioned before) then limit the shit out it. And the hand waving of "No you don't get it, having the boobs hang out like that makes sense guys!" is just as bad. No respect for that.
I should have been a bit clearer: her outfit is that of an IDOL dancer, specifically. Not a Western dancer.
-Tom
Does the woman Quiet was modeled after loving the character change anything?
Or, you have women posting here, saying what they think and expressing what they want, but apparently that doesn't count...And now we're hitting the slope of thinking for what women want.
It reminds me of the argument that someone pointing out that Rise's outfit is sexualized is the equivalent of "victim shaming her". Like she was a real person or something.You think a real-life woman deciding to put on a costume she enjoys is the same as Kojima creating Quiet? Really?
...really?
I mean, as I told KirbYuuYuu, I'm not too familiar on the subject of idol singers and Japanese culture around them. I blame Morning Musume, because I generally dislike their music. But like a quick google search of various idol groups like AKB48 and Momoiro Clover Z shows outfits that are, for the most part, more modest than what Rise is wearing there. There are a few bikini shots in there (which is understandable seeing as AKB48 has members in their early and mid 20s too), but on the whole most outfits look like this. Not bras sticking out being held on by barely any clothing and a very short miniskirt being held up by suspenders. :\
I like it, but I tend to stop once they make the younger crowd look sexualized (ie. lolli crap) . Someone brought up the Vita earlier and as much as I love the system, that sort of thing is pretty rampant on the system. The one JRPG I bought was Hyperdimension Neptunia Re:Birth and that had some okay fanservice, but even I felt weird playing the game. The only redeeming factor was the dialogue.
Reminds me of someone.
I know you're trying to keep the peace, but at a certain point, I personally do not have respect for someone who spins pandering, misogynistic content into freedom of artistic merit or whatever the hell. If limiting "artistic expression" helps eliminate characters like Quiet (only because she was mentioned before) then limit the shit out it. And the hand waving of "No you don't get it, having the boobs hang out like that makes sense guys!" is just as bad. No respect for that.
So I guess the camera getting a bit personal with Bayonetta's private parts is fine too, then? Not like she is a real person or something with the right to personal space or self-determination.It reminds me of the argument that someone pointing out that Rise's outfit is sexualized is the equivalent of "victim shaming her". Like she was a real person or something.
Well I mean part of the reason the outfit doesn't look practical is because it doesn't have to be practical because it doesn't have to exist. I think a lot of the outfit probably has to do with it being stylized anime stuff, so it ended up sexualized for visual interest or sexualization was chosen as the way to provide visual interest, however you want to think of it. I disagree with Tom in that I think it's sexualized but I don't think it's wildly out of line with some idol stuff either. Zip up the top and you have something I don't think would be uncommon to see in a performance.
edit: Let me say it's kind of funny that we're having this amount of discussion over Rise's outfit which is not really the level of fan service anyone is even talking about.
So I guess the camera getting a bit personal with Bayonetta's private parts is fine too, then? Not like she is a real person or something with the right to personal space or self-determination.
I know you're trying to keep the peace, but at a certain point, I personally do not have respect for someone who spins pandering, misogynistic content into freedom of artistic merit or whatever the hell. If limiting "artistic expression" helps eliminate characters like Quiet (only because she was mentioned before) then limit the shit out it. And the hand waving of "No you don't get it, having the boobs hang out like that makes sense guys!" is just as bad. No respect for that.
What about the inverse? Is it selfish to hope that the Fire Emblem series continues down its current trajectory when it alienates historical fans?
Isn't Awakening the way it was because it was pretty much do or die for the Fire Emblem series? Assuming that is the case, the current trajectory that alienates historical fans seems to be a better option for the series' continued survival than relying on the historical fans that led to Fire Emblem nearly being killed off. In that case, the current trajectory Fire Emblem is on exists because it sells and sells better than the previous trajectory. In this case, someone complaining about Fire Emblem having changed is yelling into the void when changing is what allows Fire Emblem to continue as a franchise.
I think there's a difference between Awakening's beach scene DLC and full blown grody face touching in Fates. That's like taking a leap down a dark, dark hole.
This is essentially what happens if your product is a niche.
Larger audiences do not get anything for them because they do not exist as a constant for that platform to balance it out
Isn't Awakening the way it was because it was pretty much do or die for the Fire Emblem series? Assuming that is the case, the current trajectory that alienates historical fans seems to be a better option for the series' continued survival than relying on the historical fans that led to Fire Emblem nearly being killed off. In that case, the current trajectory Fire Emblem is on exists because it sells and sells better than the previous trajectory. In this case, someone complaining about Fire Emblem having changed is basically yelling into the void when changing is what allows Fire Emblem to continue as a franchise.
I think there's a difference between Awakening's beach scene DLC and full blown grody face touching in Fates. That's like taking a leap down a dark, dark hole.
I think you could phrase this in a way that doesn't imply that we older fans were somehow responsible for FE's weakened state. Awakening's immediate predecessors were a widely-disliked remake of the first game and a Japan-only remake of the second-half of Mystery of the Emblem. Historical fans did not ask for those. Nor did many ask for the removal of tactical complexity and addition of class-change mechanics. Nintendo had a lot of levers it could have pulled aside from otaku-pandering. We'll never know how well they might have worked.
I think you could phrase this in a way that doesn't imply that we older fans were somehow responsible for FE's weakened state. Awakening's immediate predecessors were a widely-disliked remake of the first game and a Japan-only remake of the second-half of Mystery of the Emblem. Historical fans did not ask for those. Nor did many ask for the removal of tactical complexity and addition of class-change mechanics. Nintendo had a lot of levers it could have pulled aside from otaku-pandering. We'll never know how well they might have worked.