Too bad? Them not feeling uncomfortable is more important than your photo. Or specifically ask them not to pose. Either way, you should be asking for permission to photograph them - no question.
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Group wants anti-harassment policy at Comic-Con
- Thread starter Exile20
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Too bad? Them not feeling uncomfortable is more important than your photo. Or specifically ask them not to pose. Either way, you should be asking for permission to photograph them - no question.
I guess you lose? I don't think you're the crowd they need to cater to.
Do I? The way the rules/law is now I don't have to ask. You want to change the rules and I really don't see that happening as it is impossible to get a release from every single person that may be in the frame in a crowded space like this.
I believe, in CA at least, an area or event like Comic-Con would have candid shots be totally OK. There's an expectation that there will be hundreds of people taking photographs the entire weekend when you sign up.
I wonder if you could legally limit photography at the event. There are countries where it is illegal to take or post pictures of people without their permission, but the United States isn't one of those countries. There are no laws against being unwillingly photographed because the US doesn't require you to get permission at all. US law is weird, you can even take pictures of private areas without consent if you can argue that people wouldn't be able to expect privacy. (For instance, someone walking around naked in the middle of the street versus a bathroom stall)
Luckily you wouldn't need to, as we're discussing a behavioral standard in which when you want to take a photo of one specific person you ask them, rather than a legal standard in which every single person in a given photo must sign a release form.
Being in the background of a shot =/= being the primary subject of a photo. People aren't stupid - they understand the difference. Or hell, ask the person to stand near a wall where no one will be behind them.
Unless you're intentionally taking a photo of someone else, all the while actually hoping to snap someone you see in the background, in which case that's some incredibly creepy shit.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
A wise person once said that if the best defense for your behavior is "Because it's not against the law." you have a pretty shitty argument. Some things stretch beyond the long arm of the law. Like basic respect for other people, and realizing that sometimes you don't get what you want because it makes other people uncomfortable.
And you're being obtuse about getting a release from every person. The vast majority of people aren't that unreasonable. It's pretty clear that these women are talking about pictures specifically targeting them in a sexual manner. The girl dressed like Power Girl isn't going to get mad at you because she happened to be in the frame when you were getting a picture of Jim Lee. She's going to be mad at the people taking creepy unskirts when they're bent over or something. It shouldn't be this hard for you to self determine what is and isn't an acceptable picture to take of some one.
stufte
Member
Weird. This is almost exactly (minus the power girl outfit) what happened at Jim Lees birthday party a few days ago. It involved a human pyramid and an upskirt. And Jim Lee.
But the organization selling you the ticket is private and can write the contract as they see fit. A private company is not necessarily considered a state actor simply because they make use of a publicly funded facility.
LyleLanley
Banned
Is taking candid photos of people at conventions, without their consent, such an important practice that organizers really need to cater to it?
As it stands now? Hell no. Unless you specifically ban people from bringing cameras then it's completely unreasonable to assume you're ever going to have an entire con agree to not take photos. I can understand people wanting a reasonable level of privacy, but you won't ever be able to stop people from taking candid photos whether you like it or not without a wholesale ban on cameras.
Doesn't matter how you feel about it, someone will snap a picture of you if you're dressed up from some angle even if it's just shitty blurry picture as you fly by. That's just how it is at cons.
I can imagine that it is for some press photographers who want to capture the atmosphere of the event
this pic
was picked up by a bunch of news sites
Hey, sometimes you don't get what you want with restricting other peoples photography rights, funny that. You want to change the photography rules, not me.
I don't have a problem determining what is an appropriate photo, my problem would be other people reviewing and approving/denying a photo as "appropriate" based on their own gut instinct. Fuck that.
Black Door
Banned
It's easier to just tell people "no costumes" than it is to drop a couple mil on security to follow around anyone with a camera
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I feel like you're taking "this isn't illegal" to mean "this is my right" in a pretty ludicrous context here. People are asking you to be a decent human being.
John Kowalski
Banned
Photojournalism is candid 90% of the time.
Huh.
That's cumbersome.
LostCaress
Member
Shouldn't the subject of the photo determine whether it's appropriate or not, and not you?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't think that's the desired result, though. Further, I think a lot of people -- and perhaps they're just naive optimists -- believe that if you just clearly establish a policy and make some effort to enforce it, then results will follow. I'm not going to pretend that I've considered this situation thoroughly enough to present you with the clear answers to the problem. However, I do feel like some of the pushback against proposed solutions is just resistance for the sake of resistance. If one thinks that you have the right to take any picture you want of someone in public and there's nothing we can or should do to curtail that, then we can't move forward with anything that even vaguely resembles a productive conversation. But if you agree that taking a picture of someone at a con that they don't want taken should be frowned upon, then there's no need to nitpick that no solution will be 100% effective.
No, the last time asked me to delete a photo was protestors throwing rocks at police. Fuck them.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I feel compelled to preface this by noting that I'm sighing as I type this, but do you think that someone objecting to you taking a candid picture of them in a costume at a convention is directly comparable to angry people committing illegal acts of violence against law enforcement?
entremet
Member
If it's a public place. It's all fair game.
Up skirts and such should be illegal. I have no problem with that. They're abhorrent.
But let's not remove photographer's rights in public places over some creepy stalkers.
Logistically it will be nightmare as well. So I'm going to ask everyone that happens to be in frame if I could take their photo in a public place?
But I do agree if you're going to take a photo of someone in cosplay and they're the main subject, courtesy should win over and you should just ask permission. But I'm iffy about blanket rules that infringe on photographer's rights in public places.
LostCaress
Member
This has been talked about earlier, but:
-There's a clear difference between being the subject of a picture and being part of the background
-There are obvious exceptions, if there's something clearly noteworthy about the picture (proof of a crime or whatever), some sort of journalistic interest, it's fair.
We're talking about taking pictures of people. Like has been said before, why not ask the subject before hand?
Sorry that was the only real example I had. I've never even been to a comic con. I generally find cosplayers tacky and gross. Would not photograph (most of) them ;P
Well, now I feel like you wasted my time. Why raise all the nitpicky edge-case questions when none of them actually apply to you?
I've never been to a north american con, but I was at wonder festival the other day in Japan and their cosplay / photo system was that people would have little spots outside the building and photographers would line up near them and take turns photographing them, so you have a bunch of cosplayers staggered and then each one with a small lineup. Seemed to work well.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. I don't think anybody is suggesting that I have a moral obligation to delete a photo if I can't track down the owner of a right hand that is in the bottom right corner the picture I just snapped. But if I just have to get a picture of Catwoman over there, is it unreasonable to ask her if it's OK to snap a picture? I feel like that's what most of us are advocating in terms of etiquette.
entremet
Member
We agree. I said so in my post.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=863320
It doesn't look difficult at all to ask very attractive people in a decent way if you can take their photo. Why all these comments in this thread about why we shouldn't infringe on people's rights to be shitheads to women when those shitheads could just be good humans about taking their photos?
It doesn't look difficult at all to ask very attractive people in a decent way if you can take their photo. Why all these comments in this thread about why we shouldn't infringe on people's rights to be shitheads to women when those shitheads could just be good humans about taking their photos?
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. Then one proposed solution would be to advocate this via clearly-defined policy even if we agree that it may not be the most easily enforceable rule in existence.
100% agree! They can go have entertainment con somewhere else.
LostCaress
Member
You said "public place - all fair game". I really don't agree with that. One of the most obvious examples is taking pictures of people at a public beach. Is that acceptable? I really don't think so - being in public means you have less privacy, not none.
I don't know about other conventions, but that do this at comiket in Japan.
Not sure about effectiveness though.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm not a picture person and pretty much never take a picture of anything that doesn't involve my kid. But when I was walking the floor of the St. Louis Comic-Con (first big-ish convention I'd ever been to), I was honestly surprised at just how willing people were to be photographed when asked. Personally, I was kind of embarrassed being around my friend who would shamelessly ask any girl in a hot costume for a photo, but each and every time they seemed willing to accommodate.
But what about my integrity as a photography artist, which demands that I capture all my subjects in a completely natural state?
What about me?
Say it jokingly, but I'm sure there are people who would be diehards for this kind of argument lol.
Which is why the need for these far off shots, these while walking, behind 9 people, across the hall, while the model is eating a danish shots are so dumb to begin with. If you ask, 9 times out of 10 the person will be accommodating and if they say no, there's usually a good reason why that you don't need to know about.
So just ask. Use your words. You don't have to be a creeper if you just want a picture.
"Your" portfolio is boring.
Well then you just do what ponpo does and jailbreak your japanese iPhone so you can illegally force mute the camera shutter and take photos whenever you want ٩(ˊᗜˋ*)و
Anyway it might not work for US cons that well because of the sheer number of people cosplaying but oh well.
Comiket is different and doesn't usually have individual lines I think, but they at least have designated cosplay photo areas. Why not just do that?
Well then you just do what ponpo does and jailbreak your japanese iPhone so you can illegally force mute the camera shutter and take photos whenever you want ٩(ˊᗜˋ*)و
Anyway it might not work for US cons that well because of the sheer number of people cosplaying but oh well.
Comiket is different and doesn't usually have individual lines I think, but they at least have designated cosplay photo areas. Why not just do that?
I don't know about you, but to me, that's intimidating as fuck.
Well then you just do what ponpo does and jailbreak your japanese iPhone so you can illegally force mute the camera shutter and take photos whenever you want ٩(ˊᗜˋ*)و
Anyway it might not work for US cons that well because of the sheer number of people cosplaying but oh well.
Comiket is different and doesn't usually have individual lines I think, but they at least have designated cosplay photo areas. Why not just do that?
This is a little insane.
It would be for me too since I hate getting my photo taken in general, but these are kind of the more 'extreme' examples I think. Not everyone in a designated photo area would have these kinds of crowds (and for the ones that do, I don't think they'd mind)
Haha I guess so but again, I think the handful of cosplayers who get these huge crowds are fine with it.
Why is your cosplay hobby somehow more important than my photography hobby?
Well then you just do what ponpo does and jailbreak your japanese iPhone so you can illegally force mute the camera shutter and take photos whenever you want ٩(ˊᗜˋ*)و
Anyway it might not work for US cons that well because of the sheer number of people cosplaying but oh well.
Comiket is different and doesn't usually have individual lines I think, but they at least have designated cosplay photo areas. Why not just do that?
I've seen a couple of those shots. Like you could replace the female with Rick, add a gray filter and Walking Dead in Japan.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
Neither is more important than the other. Its about being respectful.
The fact that you think this is some kind of competition between hobbies says a lot.
It isn't. It's about slowly changing the insular, toxic attitudes that are ingrained and tacitly accepted in nerd culture.
So post more dripping sarcastic posts attacking photographers I guess?
lol
Why should I avert my eyes (and lens) in your magnificent presence? Get over yourself and don't go out like that if you can't handle people looking at you and taking your photo without your permission.
entremet
Member
That's fine if you don't agree, but legally that's not the case.
Like I said,I'd rather a guideline than a rule. Legislating decency has mixed results. Bring awareness instead.
Not likely. it's a big media circus thing.
This kind of stuff doesn't surprise me the least bit. These conventions are giant magnets to creeps I'm afraid.. And of course these pathetic creeps are going to follow or harass these women. It's about time that action be taken to ban these people or even take proper action and involve the police.
I think interviewer guys should be banned as well. All I've seen interviewers do when they do speak to cosplayers is they morally degrade them and treat them just as bad as any other creep in those conventions would with the exception that they have a video camera and microphone and claim they're doing a "interview"
Pathetic. The lot of them.
John Kowalski
Banned
Candid photography is the GOAT, go walk you plebeian walk somewhere else.
Dude. No one is targeting photographers. They're targeting the archetype you're representing, the obtuse photographer who thinks he is entitled to every photograph and that nothing should ever come between him and his photo, neither law nor ethics. I'm a photographer and i take candids all the fucking time, in fact i only take candids. But i understand how to have a healthy relationship with my subjects in a way that does not exploit them or inconvenience them.
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