• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Killer is Dead 'can fuck off into space' - Matt Lees talks about "Gigolo mode"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sucks that this is one of the biggest threads I've seen for Killer is Dead. The same shit happened with Dragon's Crown. 20+ pages of people "discussing" aspects of a game they haven't played, and never plan to. Meanwhile threads that are actually about the game rarely seem to reach 10 pages. I mean, even I think gigolo mode seems kinda creepy and weird, but stuff like that video is pure sensationalism. He talks about tone and context, while neglecting to mention any. The tone is obviously supposed to be humorous and referential to the main character's comical ladies-man reputation, but nah forget about all that. Context? This is in a game that has been shown to be full of intentionally over the top and stupid shit. It isn't supposed to be taken seriously in the slightest. Forget about that too.
He also talks about how Grasshopper is done making interesting games, but mechanically KiD looks like Grasshopper's most impressive game yet, and tonally it seems to be the closest we're getting to a return to early Suda 51's glory days of surrealist greatness. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't aware of that, though.
But once again, forget all that. It's time to complain on the internet for the good of videogames!
 

Shaneus

Member
What platforms is this game on? After reading Hatsuu's post, I want to know more. Knowing Suda was on it should've been enough, but this thread has been a pertinent reminder to keep an eye out for it.

PS. I absolutely hate this sensationalist bullshit. To echo what someone posted earlier, nothing reeks of clickbait more than claiming a game THAT HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED is sexist. At least give the option of the public having some kind of ability to reply rather than self-gratifyingly thinking that it's your duty to inform them of how high and mighty you are.

Funny, I knew very little about Killer is Dead before watching that video and now I kinda wanna play it. Sorry but the outrage backfired.
Pretty much this. I'd never bothered looking it up at all, but now... damn, I want it. Give me all the Platinum, Grasshopper and Suda games NAO.

Edit: I haven't played killer7, but is the name possibly a reference to it?
 
Thought the title meant you could fuck people so hard they flew into outer space :/

Instead just lots of exaggeration in an awful video, shame stuff like this often leads to people immediately throwing aside any future discussion about sexism/what have you in games. Although to be fair those are often the people who refuse to even consider such issues.
 

Monocle

Member
Apart from the reviewer being wrong in judging the game from an optional mode, Suda 51 is a fucking pervy old man!

His recent games are shit! Or let me say all his games are shit EXCEPT Killer 7

I never liked him, nor liked his works. The only thing I liked is Killer 7 but him? Nah, he's a fucking old sick pervert.
Way to raise the level of discourse.
 

Mik2121

Member
Game's issues aside... are we really going to get a thread whenever anyone decides to upload a video to youtube rambling about something?

Ughh...

As for the game itself... whatever. This is Suda51 and there are thousands of other games if he wants something different.
 
I watched the video, and here’s my reply. I haven’t read the entirely of the thread yet, so please excuse my if I’ve missed something already written here! Also keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and is in no way reflective of XSEED Games, my employer.
Thanks for correcting the statements in the OP video.

I'm still rather put off by the idea that all these women are just begging for a date with the protagonist. Even if there are characterized women in the game outside of Gigolo mode the women in it are uncharacterized and shallow.

As far as them giving you gifts goes. If the mini-game always ends with implied sex then yes the mechanic is essentially a trade. What can I buy her so I can sleep with her so I can get an item.

The fact it is optional (the side mission or the glasses) seems completely irrelevant to me as well.
Game's issues aside... are we really going to get a thread whenever anyone decides to upload a video to youtube rambling about something?

Ughh...
It is a discussion forum.
 

Mik2121

Member
It is a discussion forum.
Yes, and we got tons of topics to talk about. But there's gotta be a limit or otherwise the forum could get flooded with incredibly minor stuff like this. What this guy posted was a rant that anyone else would have posted whenever this game's trailer got announced, and probably inside said thread, not in a new one. Just because he made a (fairly annoying) video it doesn't mean it deserves a thread, in my opinion.
 
Yes, and we got tons of topics to talk about. But there's gotta be a limit or otherwise the forum could get flooded with incredibly minor stuff like this. If you wanna discuss something so minor, I think it should go into the game's thread or... post it on Youtube :/
The forum is designed so that if there is a audience for discussion (and at over 1000 posts there obviously was in this case) it remains on the front page. No interest? Drops off.
I find the gigolo mode hilariously awkward. I mean i get why some people might be upset and are getting their soapboxes ready but it's just a game. Reminds me of the whole Quiet wardrobe thing when the new MGS V trailer was released just not as bad. Game still looks interesting though.
This kind of thinking blows my mind.
 
I find the gigolo mode hilariously awkward. I mean i get why some people might be upset and are getting their soapboxes ready but it's just a game. Reminds me of the whole Quiet wardrobe thing when the new MGS V trailer was released just not as bad. Game still looks interesting though.
 
Thanks for correcting the statements in the OP video.

I'm still rather put off by the idea that all these women are just begging for a date with the protagonist. Even if there are characterized women in the game outside of Gigolo mode the women in it are uncharacterized and shallow.

I was planning on waiting until the game was out so we can actually see what the women are like to actually say this one way or another.

Also the "begging for a date" thing is a satirical take on James Bond as previously stated.
 

Mik2121

Member
The forum is designed so that if there is a audience for discussion (and at over 1000 posts there obviously was in this case) it remains on the front page. No interest? Drops off.

This kind of thinking blows my mind.

My bad. Forgot people love to take issues like sexism and make them seem way more offensive than they are to get views and generate controversy. Sure, go ahead.


(Now, don't get me wrong, I'm against sexism... but I just think some of the topics showing up recently have been fairly out of place and just discussing for the sake of it)
 
I was planning on waiting until the game was out so we can actually see what the women are like to actually say this one way or another.

Also the "begging for a date" thing is a satirical take on James Bond as previously stated.
I agree that my statement may be premature but saying that there are characterized women in comparison makes it sound like the women in these missions are not.

Satire has to be somewhat clear to make sense. I hope this game is drawing enough from James Bond for that to make sense. It already seems as if some of it may have been lost in translation (Mondo obviously isn't going to sound like Bond in NA but yet his name in this version is still Mondo).
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think you know what Hentai is..
FWIW Hentai just means "perverted".

From what I can tell its only an English phenomenon to think it means a manga/anime/game with animated sex.

Many Suda games are perverted.. So in a way he's right :p
 
he's doing free advertising for Killer is Dead.

why not just write a concerned letter to the game's publisher, and privately ask others to do the same? gotta get that soapbox attention, even if it means shilling for something you supposedly hate.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Im sorry but im failing to understand what you are even arguing. If everything that happened was true? But its not. End of story.


Im not dealing in hypotheticals here. The Man misrepresented the game because he didnt like what he saw. He is both insulting the creators, people who are interested in the game and ironically enough, the very people he claims to represent by being disingenuous.


Its a growing trend amongst western gaming journalists and has a very anti-japanese slant. Its getting tiring to hear and thats why increasingly people are lumping hyperbloic outbursts like this in the same bag and dismissing them entirely, even when they do have merit.
Remember why I quoted you in the first place? It was because the person you quoted and agreed with made a generalization about feminists BEFORE the reveal that Matt was misrepresenting the game.

The hypothetical is brought up because we are discussing what took place before the reveal. The attitude of dismissing feminists because they're criticizing a game they like.

As for the last part, I'm not seeing this as an anti-Japanese slant. Why exactly do you feel that way?

WTF lol. That should end the thread right there but instead it sounds like you are glossing over it
Do you even know what discussion I'm having? I commented on a post that was made before it was revealed Matt's video was incorrect on many parts. The post in question targeted feminism under the mind set that the points in the video are over-reactions.

This doesn't have to do with whether or not the video was right or wrong but how people are so quick to demonize feminism.
 
The forum is designed so that if there is a audience for discussion (and at over 1000 posts there obviously was in this case) it remains on the front page. No interest? Drops off.

This kind of thinking blows my mind.

Why? Is it because i'm not upset over something i haven't played yet? I'm just as against sexism as the next guy but come on.
 
Why? Is it because i'm not upset over something i haven't played yet? I'm just as against sexism as the next guy but come on.
That isn't what you said. You said "it's just a game" as if because it is a game we shouldn't be concerned with what it portrays.

Now your turning it around as if you are only going to judge it once you play it which is quite different from not judging it because is is just a game.
 
This doesn't have to do with whether or not the video was right or wrong but how people are so quick to demonize feminism.

It's reactionary. People become incredibly defensive and then antagonistic towards someone if they have taken something that people either liked or didn't think was one way and show it in a light that paints it as negative. I'm not saying it's right, in fact it's often the worst way to defend something by having a violent and vitriol infused reaction to something, but I am saying I understand where it comes from.

If you like something, possibly a great deal, and are told it is terrible and awful you're going to be defensive towards attacks against it because there's no way you'd like something terrible and awful, right (editor's note: I love many awful things)? It's even stronger when you are told that something you enjoy is detrimental to views/ideas/etc. regarding a group of people or gender, ESPECIALLY when you do not hold the beliefs that people are claiming this thing you like has. It could certainly have it and you may be unaware of it or whatnot, but it's a very harsh thing to hear that you like something that supports or portrays things you do not believe. So I can understand why some people may defend or twist things around so strongly. Taking something and making it a moral or ethical argument where the "wrong side" is the immoral or unethical or whatever one makes it very hard for someone to take a rational or non-aggressive stance. Liking something that does apparent harm to a group of people is not something anyone wants to do. So you say it does not or defend the point that it does not fervently because it calls your own morals or ethics or "goodness" into question.

It is how it is. As I stated above, I don't mind this mode. If someone wants to call me out on it and claim it is harmful to impressions of women and the game industry I will simply defer to them that I do not have enough knowledge or the proper viewpoint to say whether it is or not and continue to like it. If they want to band people together against it, that is their prerogative and if it helps the industry or impressions of women by pointing out this game or it's actions then very good. But I'm not the person who can do that.
 
That isn't what you said. You said "it's just a game" as if because it is a game we shouldn't be concerned with what it portrays.

Now your turning it around as if you are only going to judge it once you play it which is quite different from not judging it because is is just a game.


No, i meant "it's just a game" as in lighten up a little, its just a game, but take it however you want. In my opinion Matt Lees is overreacting a bit. Thats the vibe i got from his video anyway. I'll reserve my eye rolling till i play the game and come across that mode.
 
As for the last part, I'm not seeing this as an anti-Japanese slant. Why exactly do you feel that way?

Because many of the games that seem to cause problems with male gaming journalists masqurading as feminists tend to be japanese in origin.


Meanwhile western games with the same or worst examples of violence against women, mysogony, or general patriarchal behaviour tend to be ignored.


For example, Matt lees made a weapons breakdown/mini review in January for DmC after game had launched. A game that at one of its climatic moments, has one of its lead character kill a baby while its still in its mothers womb. Using a sniper rifle. While the woman was completly defenceless. Totally unnecessary in the context of the game or the underlying narrative. It was put there purely for shock value. Where is his rant about that?


There is simply no consistency here. Thats why this outrage comes across as false and thats why people will dismiss it without giving it much thought. It seems like people like lees jumping on a bandwagon rather than being a champion of womens rights and thats why people see it as trite.
 
the western world will never understand Japanese morals.

THEY [JAPAN] DON'T SEE THIS STUFF AS A BIG DEAL.
Western culture does not understand.
Meanwhile, western game design generally parades violence and no one gives two fucks.

But when the Japanese, god forbid, portrays some sexual element into their games, they are crucified?


ya'll are prude and Matt Less is taking the game way too seriously.

Suda 51 keep making weird games.
This industry would be boring without developers like you.
 

sonicmj1

Member
Because many of the games that seem to cause problems with male gaming journalists masqurading as feminists tend to be japanese in origin.


Meanwhile western games with the same or worst examples of violence against women, mysogony, or general patriarchal behaviour tend to be ignored.


For example, Matt lees made a weapons breakdown/mini review in January for DmC after game had launched. A game that at one of its climatic moments, has one of its lead character kill a baby while its still in its mothers womb. Using a sniper rifle. While the woman was completly defenceless. Totally unnecessary in the context of the game or the underlying narrative. It was put there purely for shock value. Where is his rant about that?


There is simply no consistantly here. Thats why this outrage cones across as false and thats why people will dismiss it without giving it much thought. It seems like people like lees jumping on a bandwagon rather than being a champion of womens rights and thats why people see it as trite.

Did you miss the achievement controversy in God of War Ascension? All the brouhaha about Tomb Raider leading up to its release? The Dead Island: Riptide preorder bonus in Europe? Even The Last of Us had a New York Times article about it that was pointedly critical of Joel's prominence in the story relative to Ellie. There's all kinds of stuff, for games from all kinds of cultures.

I don't agree that all of those examples are problematic, but different people find offense in different ways. It's not just a Japanese thing.
 

rubius01

Member
FWIW Hentai just means "perverted".

From what I can tell its only an English phenomenon to think it means a manga/anime/game with animated sex.

Many Suda games are perverted.. So in a way he's right :p

Actually hentai in Japan means really perverted, like you need to go see a psychologist because you have a real issue perversion. They call regular pornography "eroge" or "ecchi" or "AV". Its just in the west where hentai means pornography that originated in Japan that is animated or in a graphic novel style.

(goddamnit, I really shouldn't know that should I?)
 
the western world will never understand Japanese morals.

THEY [JAPAN] DON'T SEE THIS STUFF AS A BIG DEAL.
Western culture does not understand.
Meanwhile, western game design generally parades violence and no one gives two fucks.

But when the Japanese, god forbid, portrays some sexual element into their games, they are crucified?


ya'll are prude and Matt Less is taking the game way too seriously.

Suda 51 keep making weird games.
This industry would be boring without developers like you.

Matt just shot himself in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but gigolo's and glasses are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in Britain where you can become a player by being an asshole. If you criticize someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the Japanese public, after hearing about this, is going to want to purchase Killer is Dead for either system, and they will purchase any of Suda51's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Matt has spurred an entire market with this move.

Matt, publicly apologize or you can kiss your career goodbye.
 
And who is Matt Less to say what is appropriate or not in video games..

Honestly, there's a HUGE lack of diversity in video games these days, Have you guys noticed?

We should be parading any game that is pushing the boundaries for what's acceptable in a retailed release.
 
Sucks that this is one of the biggest threads I've seen for Killer is Dead. The same shit happened with Dragon's Crown. 20+ pages of people "discussing" aspects of a game they haven't played, and never plan to. Meanwhile threads that are actually about the game rarely seem to reach 10 pages.
Maybe a thread on Dragon's Crown could reach 10 pages if it wasnt for the sheer volume of threads created for it. Check this out - http://m.neogaf.com/search.php?searchid=3762566
I've never seen so many threads for a game which is, in all honesty, of pretty niche appeal.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Actually hentai in Japan means really perverted, like you need to go see a psychologist because you have a real issue perversion. They call regular pornography "eroge" or "ecchi" or "AV". Its just in the west where hentai means pornography that originated in Japan that is animated or in a graphic novel style.

(goddamnit, I really shouldn't know that should I?)
Found that informative, thanks.

I guess it's similar to the original potent meaning of 'pervert' back in the day, a real sexual deviant.
 
Sorry, but cultural relativism only goes so far. Saying something is a different culture and thus not bound by what we consider to be morals or ethics only really reaches so far. If a culture farts every time they meet a new person and we consider it rude but it's polite in their culture then yeah, you could claim cultural relativism.

If a culture's view on mental illness is stuck in the 1600s, where these people are mistreated and misdiagnosed thanks to willful ignorance, and problems arise in their society due to their appalling mishandling or downright disgraceful treatment then how far does "well, it's just how they view mental illness" go?

To make a clearer comparison to the topic, how much cultural relativism can you claim against Japan's enormous sexual molestation/rape problem? That's just how they are, right? You can't really call them out for having awful views regarding this topic, right?
 
I watched the video, and here’s my reply. I haven’t read the entirely of the thread yet, so please excuse my if I’ve missed something already written here! Also keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and is in no way reflective of XSEED Games, my employer.

- "You seduce women in a bar using X-Ray glasses."
Untrue. Mondo is modeled after James Bond ("Mondo" and "Bond" sound the same in Japanese), and his escapades with women were meant to be a reflection of the "man every woman wants" thing. Basically, as you progress through the game, women will call Mondo and beg for a date. You can go on these dates in locations that vary depending on the girl, not just bars, and yeah, you do what a dude who has only one thing on his mind does (not saying every dude, just that kind of dude) and stare at her a hell of a lot. The glasses are not used to seduce; they're used in a couple of ways, including as 'x-ray' glasses and to also look inside of her heart and figure out her likes and dislikes so you can give her gifts that she likes. It’s worth noting you can get by just fine without them.

- "She's referred to as a 'target'"
This is a half-truth. This is not a game where Mondo finds a chick and literally beelines towards her and relentlessly hits on her. The entire game is presented on a world map of sorts, and you scroll through various locations where you choose your missions. 'Targets' are the character you are directly interacting with for said mission, and it is used to describe both the girls in Gigolo Mode as well as your targets of execution in story mode. It's not exclusively to the women as the video makes it sound and shouldn’t be interpreted in a negative light.

- "By look at her breasts and crotch, she will, of course, like you more."
Worded incorrectly. It's true that you're basically ogling your date while she isn't looking, but if she catches you, she'll be hella pissed off. There's a meter on the right that's indicative of her mood, and if you stare too much, you obviously won't be having a very good date by the end. Some of these endings are pretty hilarious, and if you’re not into this whole Gigolo Mode thing, you might find them to be sweet justice.

- "If you are successful at checking out her nips, you gain the ability to use gigolo glasses."
Incorrect. Again, the glasses are unlockable or available as pre-order DLC.

- "ludicrously proportioned"
As a female, I'll say that's actually wrong as well. I actually changed the measurements myself in the English version to be a more accruate and proportionate reflection of their character models, since I know a thing or two about female measurements.

- "The more you stare at this woman's bosoms, the more you learn what her favorite things are"
Incorrect. The gigolo glasses DO tell you the things that she likes whether you decide to stare at her lingerie or not (hell, you can look to the side if you're uncomfortable for that part). You can also get a good idea of what each girl likes based on, well, them. Obviously a girl like Koharu, who is presented as very demure, is probably not going to like a flashy watch, and obviously a go-getter like Natalia isn't going to have any interest in a cute baby doll as a gift. Gift-giving is so ridiculously over-the-top like the rest of the game, and it's silly as all get-out. Don’t take it seriously, have fun with it.

- "But the selection of things that these women like is downright offensive."
Flowers - Not sure about how offensive giving a single red rose to a girl is. Cliche, yes, but hardly offensive.
Booze - You buy her a drink, it’s presented in the same manner as other gifts. You can give a Schnapps bottle as a gift though, but I don’t know, booze is a pretty sweet gift.
Money- INCORRECT, COMPLETELY INCORRECT. You can give a commemorative gold coin, and it does not translate to cash. You DO NOT give cash to your dates as gifts. I cannot believe how inaccurate this is.
Worth noting that other gifts are like a Japanese fan, chewing gum, or a necklace. This video pulls pulls out the ones he finds offensive and sort of abstracts them.

- "They give you a present"
True, but he's making it sound like a trade, like, “Hey, thanks for the sex, here’s something in exchange.” The girls declare that they made a gift exclusively for you, which can be pretty interesting items. It's silly, but I interpreted Natalia as one badass chick when she made me a Drill Arm. Like, a complex device you attatch to your mechanical arm to bust walls and fight enemies. Coooooool.


- "Not about waving a flag of gender equality"
I have to admit, I hate this kind of card being pulled. Not every damn game has to be politically correct. This game actually does have characterized women outside of Gigolo Mode, including your boss whom you respect because she's business-smart and no-nonsense, your upbeat assistant, an elegant, mysterious woman, as well as targets for execution and clients who hire you to do the executing during story mode. In fact, more women are in story mode than in Gigolo Mode.

This is also Mondo’s story, a guy designed to be charismatic who cuts off heads and travels the world (and the moon, the freaking moon) for a living and meets beautiful women in the process. It’s not meant to be a politically correct game and doesn’t even try to pretend it is, which, I think, is far more offensive. And since I’ve played quite a few SUDA 51 games, I can say he’s never the type to be that politically correct in any of his work anyway- this game is, completely, a SUDA title. Is it kind of stupid? Yeah, it definitely is. You’ll either laugh at it or feel slightly uncomfortable; I was the former, as, like with anything else in a game that has tiger tattoos coming to life and unicorns and a Hansel and Gretel/Alice in Wonderland house, I noticed it was completely ridiculous. Purposefully so.

This video also doesn’t note that these missions, while a chance to gather unique and useful gifts, is completely optional. If you don’t like it and just want to play through the story? You can do that, it’s no problem. The story itself is high action, fast and furious, and full of unlockable abilities and twists and turns that do not ever require you to go on dates or try to ‘get lucky’.

I’m not going to say it’s wrong to be offended by it, but I also think he was giving misinformation and also taking it way too seriously, especially when he had some of the context of the game to go off of.

must quote this post for how freakin' good it is.
 

rubius01

Member
It's reactionary. People become incredibly defensive and then antagonistic towards someone if they have taken something that people either liked or didn't think was one way and show it in a light that paints it as negative. I'm not saying it's right, in fact it's often the worst way to defend something by having a violent and vitriol infused reaction to something, but I am saying I understand where it comes from.

If you like something, possibly a great deal, and are told it is terrible and awful you're going to be defensive towards attacks against it because there's no way you'd like something terrible and awful, right (editor's note: I love many awful things)? It's even stronger when you are told that something you enjoy is detrimental to views/ideas/etc. regarding a group of people or gender, ESPECIALLY when you do not hold the beliefs that people are claiming this thing you like has. It could certainly have it and you may be unaware of it or whatnot, but it's a very harsh thing to hear that you like something that supports or portrays things you do not believe. So I can understand why some people may defend or twist things around so strongly. Taking something and making it a moral or ethical argument where the "wrong side" is the immoral or unethical or whatever one makes it very hard for someone to take a rational or non-aggressive stance. Liking something that does apparent harm to a group of people is not something anyone wants to do. So you say it does not or defend the point that it does not fervently because it calls your own morals or ethics or "goodness" into question.

Sir you are speaking with too much common sense. You need to leave the internets.
 
Sorry, but cultural relativism only goes so far. Saying something is a different culture and thus not bound by what we consider to be morals or ethics only really reaches so far. If a culture farts every time they meet a new person and we consider it rude but it's polite in their culture then yeah, you could claim cultural relativism.

If a culture's view on mental illness is stuck in the 1600s, where these people are mistreated and misdiagnosed thanks to willful ignorance, and problems arise in their society due to their appalling mishandling or downright disgraceful treatment then how far does "well, it's just how they view mental illness" go?

To make a clearer comparison to the topic, how much cultural relativism can you claim against Japan's enormous sexual molestation/rape problem? That's just how they are, right? You can't really call them out for having awful views regarding this topic, right?

you do realize that the rape statistic in japan has gone down year over year right?
And the rape statistic is WAY higher in the United States!
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
The fan edition comes with X-Ray glasses for this mode don't it?
 

Dawg

Member
I love how most people in the west complain over sex in games yet they have no problem with violence.

Are most of them American? I mean, I live in Europe and I don't know anyone who... cares about this stuff.

I know in America people go crazy over a nipple on tv though, so that's why I'm wondering.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom