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[sonicmj1]

That if you're a journalist then you should get your facts straight first. And if you don't then you should at least be able to admit that you were wrong about certain things even if you do still stand by your overall opinion. If they can't at least do that then we're just in a situation where games journalism where they can say anything they want regardless of whether it's true and get away with it because apparently there's no reason to admit when they're wrong.

If only he'd do that.

The points made by the XSEED translator are valid, but they still don't justify the nature of this mini-game. The specifics aren't the meat of the pudding - it's the overall gist that feels creepy as fuck: It's a mini-game where you pick up women by staring at their tits and buying them stuff while orgasmic moaning noises play. The fact that the X-ray glasses are 'optional DLC' doesn't mean everything is A-OK.

The point I wanted to make with this video is simple: Suda 51 has been respected as an auteur for many years, but the nature of his recent work no longer earns him that kind of status. You might argue that this stuff is knowingly subversive, but that doesn't escape the reality of the situation: His games primarily pander to an audience of fap-happy teens. The fact that X-ray glasses are pre-order DLC makes this situation abundantly clear.

Oh, nevermind.

GAF's vicious to feminists, and the posters that say mean things about established social theories need to be put in their place, even thought the actual subject of the thread was a flawed analysis of an optional mode in a video game. That's what we're arguing about, gosh darn it. Discussions evolve, and they'll keep going even when they lose their legs in the process.

I'm trying to avoid straying too far from the original topic, because these sorts threads tend to be characterized by some of the least honest discussion on GAF. Both sides have a nasty habit of reading what they expect to read in the arguments of people who don't agree with them, and once that starts happening, it's impossible to engage other people as human beings. Most of the digressions are based on someone reading the most aggressive possible message in another person's post, and then getting defensive about it. It sucks, yet it keeps happening over and over.

It's noble to try and correct all the viciousness and dogpiling and so on, but it feels really futile to me. I think it's more productive to focus on finding what our common ground is and where our disagreement comes from in this particular case, instead of trying to change people's minds about feminism.

 

[Amneisac]

Okay, it's objectifying women.

Now what?

It's step one. Seriously, it might sound silly, but before there can be any real progress made in these issues, people have to at least become aware of what the issues and concerns are. I would imagine at least a handful of the people on this board who are going through mental gymnastics trying to figure out how to rationalize this as anything other than sexist aren't even fully aware of what objectification means.

If they are at least willing to recognize it, even if they still don't have a problem with it, it's one step closer to having a real discussion.

Same thing goes for the people who call anyone who wants to buy this game a basement-dwelling nerd virgin. That's obviously not constructive and only incites more emotional non-sense that doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about an important issue.

 

[Knux-Future]

That's not the best I can do. I can do better. Tell me, do you masturbate to video games? If the answer is yes, then OK, despite what the slightly harsh rhetoric in my previous post would suggest I actually don't care what you get up to. If that's what you like doing, then cool, it's your personal business.

Is the answer no? OK, cool, then why do you want to include shit like this in a videogame? Sex is a perfectly valid form of expression in art. In art. In art. Perhaps to help validate two characters relationship or otherwise provide a perfunctory service to the story. But this kind of senseless lady gawking does nothing to further our cause as a medium to be taken seriously. This isn't fucking 'Antichrist', it's the digital equivalent of Maxim, a magazine primarily purchased by ten year olds still fantasising about groping an actual lady boob.

I mean guys, think about this for a second. You're defending a mini-game in KiD called 'Gigilo Mode'. If that last sentence doesn't raise any red flags in your head then we obviously view the world in a very different way.

The other defence is the fact that we have high brow and low brow films. Whilst that is certainly true I think it is an unfair comparison. Please point me to that B movie where the protagonist goes to bars to pick up mute women whom he subsequently fucks and gets a reward from. Wait, you can't because that is the plot of a porn film. There is a large difference for the most part between an actress starring in a film where she appreciates she is partly there for sex appeal and an in game model of a sexualised women appearing in a videogame because Suda wants it there. There is no tongue in cheek here.

Or let's put it another way. You probably don't mind watching B-movies with your partner but how many of you would feel comfortable if you're significant other was watching you 'play' this mini-game?

Also, please don't suggest that my opinion represents a need to elevate myself above you. Brother, I am posting on Neogaf. I have been for six years (under a different account for some of them, or just as a browser for the rest). I am not better than you, in fact in many ways we are probably very a like. I love video games, and I love women, but I really don't like this.

If you started with this post instead of calling everyone a mouthbreathing basement dwelling virgin, maybe we could get somewhere.

I don't understand where the whole masturbation angle comes from. While I'm sure there are people who will wank to this, I also sure there are those who have enough self control to keep in there pants. so unless you whip it out every time a scantly clad girl is on a screen, this is just more "hurr hurr you wank to cartoons trolololol" nonsense. (and no..I do not).

Look I am a person who often doesn't like any romance in my games (partly because it's often done horribally), movies or anything. I am not a romantic. So yeah stuff like this isn't my cup of tea. So the funny part is that I don't care if it's here or not. Hell I am not even all that interested in it (Lollipop was ass) but I just ahte when one side (not you persay...although you started poorly) begins to act all high and mighty over those that do. Even if it isn't intentional. Your last sentence is all it takes. But instead we get " I'm not saying it's bad to like this but it is also not bad for me to not like it because it is sexist garbagio". Those type of sentences throw in that added passive agrressive touch that litters these threads.

Like I have said multiple times, this is worth talking about but it sadly ALWAYS begins with the game/whatever in question being burned at the stake with loaded words that implicate it's creators and fans. The Dragons Crown shit started with the 14yr old boy comment, this started with the hentai bullshit (and wrong info). This simply gives the other side something to latch onto and ignore any good you might have said. If it had of started with, KiDs Gigolo mode is kinda creepy or embarrassing then MAAAAYBE we could have dialog. But nope all of that is gone.

also for the tongue in cheek comment...cmon son. Suda hasn't been serious for a looong time. Whether or not he was successful in his satire is another thing or if his humor is funny or not...but it has been his thing for a while. This is no sillier than the dick jokes and Travis fucking Touchdown.

Basically we can talk about this as soon as both sides stop being the children and stop with the insults..intended or not. The whole idea of liking stuff makes you a child is really fucking sad. It bugs me a lot because growing up, if you like certain things you were called names (fag mostly) or you weren't adult enough (You still watch cartoons? what are you 5? lolololol). This reminds me so much of that.

Let people like what they like as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY hurt anyone is my motto. Bronies? I don't get it but do you. POP-Gaf? Not my thing but fuck it go for. Hell I watch anime and some of it is pretty......off. I don't discriminate until someone is in actual danger (pedo shit).

 

[The_Hitcher89]

How young are you?

23, played the 4 3D console GTAs and all 3 Mass Effects

The Hooker controversy of GTA3, Hot Coffee and San Andreas and The Mass Effect/ Dragon Age sex scene brouhaha.

What was the hooker controversy?

Also, Hot Coffee was much ado about nothing. It wasn't supposed to be in the game. It was immature for them to have made it in the first place, but somewhere along the line the higher-ups decided it did not have a place in the game, and ordered it to be removed. If I recall, people had to jump through a lot of hoops to access it, and it was half-baked regardless. Plus, the entire dating process in SA and IV is handled respectfully enough as far as I remember.

The Mass Effect sex scenes are cringeworthy imo, and I don;t see how they're disrespectful or sexist or anything like that. They take place with characters who have got to know eachother over the course of weeks, months, years even, and have had a relationship grow in that window.

I can't speak to Dragon Age.

 

[B3il]

how can i justify my hobbies to my parents when games like this exist!?

You just destroyed every sexism/maturity videogame argument ever.

 

[Amneisac]

I never understood the morally offended people with these games... I've stolen cars, destroyed buildings, murdered near genocide number of people in games... but its a morally bankrupt issue when you hire a hooker or use a 'gigolo' mode in a game?

if you want a morally clean game.. id suggest solitaire..

It's not only about morality. 99% of the people who play a game are never in a position to rob a bank or kill someone or steal a car. Those are very clear moral issues that are well understood by most people in civilized society.

Something like gender equality is very complicated. I certainly can't profess to understand it completely because as has been said by both sides in this thread, you can't generalize what an entire gender feels about their representation in media, etc.

Media that objectifies women like this is much more likely to have a negative impact on how actual people interact with each other on a daily basis. Everyone knows robbing a bank is wrong, not everyone thinks grabbing a woman's ass on a train or sexually harassing someone in the workplace is wrong.

 

[antitrop]

It's step one. Seriously, it might sound silly, but before there can be any real progress made in these issues, people have to at least become aware of what the issues and concerns are. I would imagine at least a handful of the people on this board who are going through mental gymnastics trying to figure out how to rationalize this as anything other than sexist aren't even fully aware of what objectification means.

If they are at least willing to recognize it, even if they still don't have a problem with it, it's one step closer to having a real discussion.

Same thing goes for the people who call anyone who wants to buy this game a basement-dwelling nerd virgin. That's obviously not constructive and only incites more emotional non-sense that doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about an important issue.

I just think video games deserve better feminist representation than Anita Sarkeesian, this KiD "fuck off into space" dolt, Patricia Hernandez, and Arthur Gies. There's legitimate room for feminist criticism of the games industry (obviously), but every feminist gaming crusade in recent memory has been completely embarrassing. More harm than good.

Just trying too hard. Wait for better opportunities.

EDIT: There are people like Jenn Frank, don't want to make it sound like every feminist in gaming is an embarrassment to their cause.

 

[Infernal Monkey]

23, played the 4 3D console GTAs and all 3 Mass Effects



What was the hooker controversy?

There was a big thing about how you could kill a prostitute after having sex and get your money back. Was the whole reason the game was banned in Australia shortly after release.

 

[Persona86]

This is objectification of women. It isn't even debatable. Female characters exist in this game [mode - edit for clarification] for the sole purpose of being sexual objects. The only characterization is done to create a minigame to allow you to 'win' your sexual conquest. "Oh, good! You picked up on her conversational queues that she likes puppies, and you bought her a puppy doll! Now you can bang her!"

Now, should this game be made (in a perfect world)? That's a debate you could have.

The developer is completely entitled to make this game, however. This game shouldn't be censored or discontinued or anything like that. But there's really no way you can argue that this game isn't objectification of women. If you don't have a problem with that, it's fine, but at least own up to what it is.

In real life, when you go out to a bar to buy a woman drinks, that isn't a sexist act. Those are actual real humans, who have made a choice to go to a bar. They want to meet people. They have choices and their own motivations. This is a video game. These women have been created for the express purpose of being sexually desirable AND sexually achievable.

I would hope that everyone can see that. Like I say, if you want to play it, that's fine. If they want to make it, that's fine. But let's not try to pretend like this isn't obviously objectifying women.

Those poor virtual women.

 

[Knux-Future]

This is objectification of women. It isn't even debatable. Female characters exist in this game [mode - edit for clarification] for the sole purpose of being sexual objects. The only characterization is done to create a minigame to allow you to 'win' your sexual conquest. "Oh, good! You picked up on her conversational queues that she likes puppies, and you bought her a puppy doll! Now you can bang her!"

Now, should this game be made (in a perfect world)? That's a debate you could have.

The developer is completely entitled to make this game, however. This game shouldn't be censored or discontinued or anything like that. But there's really no way you can argue that this game isn't objectification of women. If you don't have a problem with that, it's fine, but at least own up to what it is.

In real life, when you go out to a bar to buy a woman drinks, that isn't a sexist act. Those are actual real humans, who have made a choice to go to a bar. They want to meet people. They have choices and their own motivations. This is a video game. These women have been created for the express purpose of being sexually desirable AND sexually achievable.

I would hope that everyone can see that. Like I say, if you want to play it, that's fine. If they want to make it, that's fine. But let's not try to pretend like this isn't obviously objectifying women.

This is the passive aggressive stuff I'm talking about.

You don't see how calling something that someone likes objectifying could be an attack on their character?

It's a loaded phrase.

You are basically saying "This is objectifying women....and while that's ok that they make it and you can like it...but it's still objectifying. Hope you know that".

Like what is the point of that? You want them to admit that it is bad...fooooorrr?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I think some people just have a deep-seated need to feel morally superior to others.

I personally am fully prepared to fire all of my guns at once and fuck off into space.

 

[rvy]

No, but I would love to see the link and be incredibly disappointed in him.

It was up on YT a while back, can't find it now. He talked about it for like 15 seconds or whatever it was, I remember there was a redhead chick next to him, so probably during one of those Rev3 segments. His essential message was that he wasn't bothered that 15 year olds didn't understand why the trophy was a problem, but trying to be snarky and white knighting his way through it.

 

[EXPotemkin]

You missed part of my point I think. Nothing creepy about watching real actresses and actors my man. But I find it plenty creepy to gawk at digitized representations of women that a studio has created for your aesthetic arousal. We are just not an old enough or refined enough medium to approach this topic properly yet.

I have never seen True Blood but from what I understand, sexuality is a strong theme within that program. In fact, I believe the creator mentioned that the whole vampire thing acts as an allegory for sex.

So thematically, it very much makes sense that it's a sexualised program, it's written into it's DNA. In other words, terrible example.

I dunno, I think murder is a lot more serious a subject than sex. That's just me, though.

 

[SolidSnakex]

What was the hooker controversy?

It was a very big deal in GTA3 that you could pick up hookers and have sex with them. Although I only remember it being about something that shocked gamers rather than something that angered them. The various groups outside of that mostly just attacked it for the violence. The fact that you could pick up a hooker was far down the list of things that bothered them.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

There was a big thing about how you could kill a prostitute after having sex and get your money back. Was the whole reason the game was banned in Australia shortly after release.

It would be weird if you weren't allowed to do that in GTA. I thought the problem would have been their existence in the game and reward for, er, 'acquring their services'

 

[antitrop]

His essential message was that he wasn't bothered that 15 year olds didn't understand why the trophy was a problem, but trying to be snarky and white knighting his way through it.

Like, still after it was proven that he had no fucking idea what he was talking about?

At least Garnett Lee on Weekend Confirmed apologized after mistakenly agreeing with Sessler at the time. So disappointing from the Sess. Dem egos.

 

[Persona86]

I play games to do things I can't do in real life.

In real life, I don't kill, I don't steal, I don't destroy places, I don't have any special pervy glasses, I don't have superpowers, I can't do many things really. Nor would I want to.

I don't play games that follow the rules of my reality. Otherwise what's the point? Games are an escape from reality. The same rules do not apply.

I'm gonna kill soldiers, I'm gonna take over countries, I'm gonna objectify women, I'm gonna objectify men. I'm gonna save the day, I'm gonna be a hero. I'm gonna do whatever I want. You know why? Because it's just a game. It's a guilt free thrill.

And let's be clear I don't buy games like this just for the perverted aspect. I buy games like this because I LOVE variety in my life and in my games. Simple.

 

[rvy]

Like, still after it was proven that he had no fucking idea what he was talking about?

At least Garnett Lee on Weekend Confirmed apologized after mistakenly agreeing with Sessler at the time. So disappointing from the Sess. Dem egos.

Yes, absolutely. It was after the whole debacle happened.

 

[Amneisac]

This is the passive aggressive stuff I'm talking about.

You don't see how calling something that someone likes objectifying could be an attack on their character?

It's a loaded phrase.

You are basically saying "This is objectifying women....and while that's ok that they make it and you can like it...but it's still objectifying. Hope you know that".

Like what is the point of that? You want them to admit that it is bad...fooooorrr?

Okay, so what if someone liked the old cartoons that were clearly racist against Black people? When I was a kid those were still on TV and I thought they were funny. I didn't really take the time as a six year-old or whatever to think about what I was watching. Now I realize that was wrong and I can see why people would say those shouldn't be shown. If I was pointing out how those were clearly racist towards Black people, am I attacking the character of its fans? If so, does it matter?

I'm not equating the morality of someone who likes this game to an unenlightened six year-old (before you accuse me of being passive-aggressive again), but how is this not just a different degree of the same situation?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether or not Giggolo Mode is objectifying.

 

[Master Nairb]

When did it not become okay to be a womanizer?

 

[dapoktan]

It's not only about morality. 99% of the people who play a game are never in a position to rob a bank or kill someone or steal a car. Those are very clear moral issues that are well understood by most people in civilized society.

Something like gender equality is very complicated. I certainly can't profess to understand it completely because as has been said by both sides in this thread, you can't generalize what an entire gender feels about their representation in media, etc.

Media that objectifies women like this is much more likely to have a negative impact on how actual people interact with each other on a daily basis. Everyone knows robbing a bank is wrong, not everyone thinks grabbing a woman's ass on a train or sexually harassing someone in the workplace is wrong.

hrm.. id argue that people who grab a woman's ass on a train or sexually harassing someone in a workplace know that what they are doing is wrong as much as people who are robbing or murdering people do...

they just dont care.. but those people are all criminals... both murderers and rapists are sent to prison..

 

[Ravensmash]

I dunno, I think murder is a lot more serious a subject than sex. That's just me, though.

This is true, but the point that many are masking isn't so much the nudity or sex itself, but the objectification that comes with its portrayal. In that sense, people believe that murder on a genocidal scale as a gameplay mechanic is a lot more inclusive than a pair of jiggling breasts.

I won't comment on this case yet, because I haven't seen the game nor the video but that seems to be one side of a multi faceted argument.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Same thing goes for the people who call anyone who wants to buy this game a basement-dwelling nerd virgin. That's obviously not constructive and only incites more emotional non-sense that doesn't allow for reasonable discussion about an important issue.

This is the main reason why there's such a strong backlash in this thread. The issue of gender roles in games is an important, but when videos and statements like the one in the OP are made, it only creates a toxic discussion that hurts whatever progress that can be made. "dead like Suda's career" and "fuck off into space" and silly accusations are not going to help this issue in any way. Letting emotions go out of control over opinions of an optional minigame is something that needs to be discouraged because it paints legitimate issues as to how females appear in games as a total joke. The mess that happened back with the Dragon's Crown debacle was one of the most embarrassing things I've seen in the gaming community. That discussion reached levels of hostility and ignorance that did not need to be reached.

 

[Red Blaster]

i welcome this, anymore hate that suda51 gets for his c-grade simple 2000-spec garbage the better

 

[Persona86]

This is the main reason why there's such a strong backlash in this thread. The issue of gender roles in games is an important, but when videos and statements like the one in the OP are made, it only creates a toxic discussion that hurts whatever progress that can be made. "dead like Suda's career" and "fuck off into space" and silly accusations are not going to help this issue in any way. Letting emotions go out of control over opinions of an optional minigame is something that needs to be discouraged because it paints legitimate issues as to how females appear in games as a total joke. The mess that happened back with the Dragon's Crown debacle was one of the most embarrassing things I've seen in the gaming community. That discussion reached levels of hostility and ignorance that did not need to be reached.

This is very true, so many of these debates start....badly.

That Kotaku article. "As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess"
Such a disrespectful arrogant start to a debate, that kind of thing will never end well.

If people learn to hold back their obnoxious self righteousness and arrogance then maybe we can actually have a mature debate.

 

[Xater]

This is the main reason why there's such a strong backlash in this thread. The issue of gender roles in games is an important, but when videos and statements like the one in the OP are made, it only creates a toxic discussion that hurts whatever progress that can be made. "dead like Suda's career" and "fuck off into space" and silly accusations are not going to help this issue in any way. Letting emotions go out of control over opinions of an optional minigame is something that needs to be discouraged because it paints legitimate issues as to how females appear in games as a total joke. The mess that happened back with the Dragon's Crown debacle was one of the most embarrassing things I've seen in the gaming community. That discussion reached levels of hostility and ignorance that did not need to be reached.

I think he made an excellent argument that can be easily followed. I won't fault him for trying to make it somewhat entertaining because a lot of gamers can't be arsed to engage in a serious discussion about these issues. There are more than enough examples of tha tin this thread.

 

[sonicmj1]

This is the passive aggressive stuff I'm talking about.

You don't see how calling something that someone likes objectifying could be an attack on their character?

It's a loaded phrase.

You are basically saying "This is objectifying women....and while that's ok that they make it and you can like it...but it's still objectifying. Hope you know that".

Like what is the point of that? You want them to admit that it is bad...fooooorrr?

I see how someone can feel that way, but those sorts of accusation aren't (or at least shouldn't be) meant as attacks on the personal character of fans.

If someone starts from the perspective that sexism is a pervasive systemic (not personal) issue, then lots and lots of things are going to be sexist or objectifying. But those things don't happen because individual people are assholes, but because there are larger societal pressures that make it easy to overlook how others are affected.

There are lots of reasons to like or not like something. There's no reason to read criticism of media as a personal attack. There are plenty of things I like that don't sensitively and fairly represent the diversity of human culture, but I can recognize that while still taking pleasure from their good aspects, or even from the very things that make them transgressive.

 

[Finalow]

That reviewer can fuck off into space too.

this. ^
game is already bought for me anyway.

 

[Knux-Future]

Okay, so what if someone liked the old cartoons that were clearly racist against Black people? When I was a kid those were still on TV and I thought they were funny. I didn't really take the time as a six year-old or whatever to think about what I was watching. Now I realize that was wrong and I can see why people would say those shouldn't be shown. If I was pointing out how those were clearly racist towards Black people, am I attacking the character of its fans? If so, does it matter?

I'm not equating the morality of someone who likes this game to an unenlightened six year-old (before you accuse me of being passive-aggressive again), but how is this not just a different degree of the same situation?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether or not Giggolo Mode is objectifying.

Heres the thing...Racism is pretty easy to see. it's not as subjective. Bugs Bunny beats the nips is fucking obviously racist and wrong. Whereas song of the South has some leeway.

This falls faaaaar to closer to the Song of the South side of things....if not past it. Racism is obviously wrong and I think most people get that and understand. That where this becomes different because obviously many don't see this as that big of a deal. Two consenting adults are on a date. One is a perv and the other is attracted to him (even if by design...but that's where the whole James Bond satire comes into play). It's a bit creepy and weird but that par the course with Suda.

Your whole reference falls apart there. It's difficult to justify/explain why Bugs Bunny beating up some asian charactures is a good thing. Most people get that racism is bad and see that it is completely racist...It isn't as open/shut with KiD in terms of OBJECTIFYING.

I tend to let shit go when I know it's not meant to hurt or be serious. Racist jokes are a norm because I know they and I mean nothing by it. Bugs vs the Nips was meant to be hurtful...Not so much here IMO.

but besides the point...even if I did think this was sexist or whatever...what do you get out of it? That's my point. You want people to agree with you that it is objectifying women for what reason? So you can then ask then why do you like it? Think lesser of them?

I just dont get what you get out of that question.

 

[Vazra]

i welcome this, anymore hate that suda51 gets for his c-grade simple 2000-spec garbage the better

Well I see it as more promo than anything.

 

[RpgN]

He will? Have you seen his rant video? He already wrote off the game, Suda51 and his entire team and compared them to hentai game developers. He's writing off Grasshopper studio/Suda51's career based on an optional mode in Killer is Dead that he didn't like. Talk about overreacting. After what he said about the "game", more like Gigolo mode, you'd think he'd still interested in talking about the main game?

What he said in the video:


So did he lost all respect and think it's game over for:
Rockstar North?
Santa Monica Studios?
Bioware?

And i'm sure there's lot more.

I said he would and not will. I wasn't sure wether he has going to write/make one or not, I was only trying emphasise that this video has a different purpose. You know when critics also do that with other forms of media? Like someone talking about the way Lady Gaga was presenting herself in a music video, not focusing on the song or the overall theme of the video but just something specifically he wanted to talk about.

You have to understand that people have limits. If this is a big deal to him that affects his values and believes, then he tries to stick to something that he or other people strongely believe in. Sure he might miss on the game itself, it might be good or amazing, but it really can't be helped when it's something personal to you. I know I have that often while I try to deal with games that have too much pandering for my taste. But some games just go too far, and that varies with different people. I hope that people like you can respect that it's important to others and have sympathy with different people.

 

[semiconscious]

I watched the video, and here’s my reply. I haven’t read the entirely of the thread yet, so please excuse my if I’ve missed something already written here! Also keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and is in no way reflective of XSEED Games, my employer...

thanks. iow, tacky, yakuza-like, no big deal. which's exactly what i was assuming up till now...

 

[Persona86]

One more thing.

I've said this before but I can guarantee that this game and Dragon's Crown WILL get more sales due to reactions like this. Pretty damn ironic right?

How many people never heard of Rapelay before it became a witchhunt? There must be thousands who have now played it after reading about the negativity LOL.

The only thing that will help you achieve what you want for the image of women in games is to focus on the good aspects. Make articles about games that have good female role models, get together and make your own games, become an inspiration for others to follow in your footsteps. Enlighten people on the games you consider "RIGHT" or whatever.

Focus on what you consider positive and positivity will grow and evolve.

Focus on what you consider negative and negativity will grow and prosper.

That's my logic anyway.

Just buy and recommend games you enjoy and call it a day and let other enjoy what they want.

 

[gogogow]

You have to understand that people have limits. If this is a big deal to him that affects his values and believes,

I hope that people like you can respect that it's important to others and have sympathy with different people.

What kind of "people" am I?

And you still don't understand, so I hope people like you can understand what I try to say. Which has nothing to do with the ranting guy or the game.I don't give a crap what his believes or values are. I also don't care about Killer is Dead. I also don't care that he shits on Killer is Dead's optional mini game. It's all good imo. I never said he can't have his opinion on the mode or that it's wrong to voice it. It's the way he did it. "Fuck into space", wrong information, wearing wig in video Comparing Grasshopper to hentai developers etc. He finds the minigame ridiculous and disrespectful, yet acts childish himself and talk in a disrespectful way.

 

[Amneisac]

hrm.. id argue that people who grab a woman's ass on a train or sexually harassing someone in a workplace know that what they are doing is wrong as much as people who are robbing or murdering people do...

they just dont care.. but those people are all criminals... both murderers and rapists are sent to prison..

It's a complicated issue and I don't really have time to type it all out right now, but very few games actually simulate MURDER. There are very few games where you see the type of killing that is common in real life: a husband beating his wife to death, a woman poisoning her husband, etc. The type of innocent killing that DOES offend people is very rarely, if ever, actually represented as a playable objective.

What we see in games in usually something like two soldiers on a battlefield, kill-or-be-killed type stuff. Very few people believe that killing is always wrong and a lot of the 'murder' in games could be seen as justified.

As for objectification of women in games, I'm sure that most people who play games like that are probably still good people. I'm not out to say they're treating women in their daily lives the way they do in the games they play, but it still raises some questions.

Racism/sexism are bad, in part, because they diminish what we think about a certain group of people. Games that objectify women offend women - games that simulate killing a nameless/faceless NPC doesn't really offend anyone.

 

[Persona86]

When did it not become okay to be a womanizer?

2009

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I think he made an excellent argument that can be easily followed. I won't fault him for trying to make it somewhat entertaining because a lot of gamers can't be arsed to engage in a serious discussion about these issues. There are more than enough examples of that in this thread.

I'm not sure whether it was intentional or not, but he really hurt his argument by exaggerating the details of what was going on in the game. There's nothing wrong adding some flavor to your talking points, but twisting the truth of what your criticizing just seems kind of sleezy and counter-productive. As a journalist he should exercise better conduct.

 

[Midnight Moon]

Make me wonder if Suda is a virgin lol

 

[Infernal Monkey]

i welcome this, anymore hate that suda51 gets for his c-grade simple 2000-spec garbage the better

Sssh, Simple 2000 games were the best thing to happen last gen.

 

[southerncross]

Make me wonder if Suda is a virgin lol

He has a wife, so probably not.

 

[heiyu]

So this game sounds like a disaster.

to some maybe it will... to someone who loved No More Heroes probably not
MOEEE!

 

[Amneisac]

Heres the thing...Racism is pretty easy to see. it's not as subjective. Bugs Bunny beats the nips is fucking obviously racist and wrong. Whereas song of the South has some leeway.

This falls faaaaar to closer to the Song of the South side of things....if not past it. Racism is obviously wrong and I think most people get that and understand. That where this becomes different because obviously many don't see this as that big of a deal. Two consenting adults are on a date. One is a perv and the other is attracted to him (even if by design...but that's where the whole James Bond satire comes into play). It's a bit creepy and weird but that par the course with Suda.

Your whole reference falls apart there. It's difficult to justify/explain why Bugs Bunny beating up some asian charactures is a good thing. Most people get that racism is bad and see that it is completely racist...It isn't as open/shut with KiD in terms of OBJECTIFYING.

I tend to let shit go when I know it's not meant to hurt or be serious. Racist jokes are a norm because I know they and I mean nothing by it. Bugs vs the Nips was meant to be hurtful...Not so much here IMO.

but besides the point...even if I did think this was sexist or whatever...what do you get out of it? That's my point. You want people to agree with you that it is objectifying women for what reason? So you can then ask then why do you like it? Think lesser of them?

I just dont get what you get out of that question.

First of all, this game mode is not two consenting people on a date. That's the whole point. These female NPCs are created to have sex with.

As to your second point, I'm not here to psychoanalyze anyone or pass judgment. I feel that any media that objectifies women can cause problems in society. There are far worse offenders than this game, but this is the topic at hand. I usually just stay out of threads like this, but I get annoyed at the constant WHITE KNIGHT vs. NERD VIRGIN arguments.

Here's another parting thought because I have to leave for a while:

Why do they call this "Gigolo" mode if the man isn't even being paid? If you think about it, if the women were actually paying for sex that would empower them a little bit - so even that has been removed in this case. And please don't try to say that they are removing it from a moral obligation since obviously they're not concerned about morals anywhere else. In a situation with a real 'gigolo' the woman has the power, she's the client, she's paying, she's controlling the situation. This is just a bizarro Gigolo situation where the man is completely empowered.

 

[Emitan]

When did it not become okay to be a womanizer?

It was never okay

 

[Lyng]

The footage shown looked as boring and adolescent as that dude from videogamer.com....

 

[Knux-Future]

First of all, this game mode is not two consenting people on a date. That's the whole point. These female NPCs are created to have sex with.

wat.

and you lost me.

Mondo isn't forcing them to have sex with him....they are seemingly there because they want to be or are attracted to him (James Bond thing again...).

it is difficult to get in the minds of fictional characters...especially ones we know shit about...since none of us played the game yet.

The way I see it is that the game is set up like a James Bond Tv show of sorts in which each week Mondo meets a new girl and a new target to kill....it's silly and a bit weirder...but it is harmless.

but whatever...going in circles now.

I don't agree with you.

done

 

[LordJim]

snip

Tons of games glorify gang violence or someone enforcing 'justice' on his own. It's as common and close to real life as it gets.
Also, many of the 'npc's' you call faceless can easily be related to a real life group.

It's the same shit, we just apparently care less

 

[Hagi]

I play games to do things I can't do in real life.

In real life, I don't kill, I don't steal, I don't destroy places, I don't have any special pervy glasses, I don't have superpowers, I can't do many things really. Nor would I want to.

I don't play games that follow the rules of my reality. Otherwise what's the point? Games are an escape from reality. The same rules do not apply.

I'm gonna kill soldiers, I'm gonna take over countries, I'm gonna objectify women, I'm gonna objectify men. I'm gonna save the day, I'm gonna be a hero. I'm gonna do whatever I want. You know why? Because it's just a game. It's a guilt free thrill.

And let's be clear I don't buy games like this just for the perverted aspect. I buy games like this because I LOVE variety in my life and in my games. Simple.

Haha not anymore sonny jim.

It is a pretty bizarre feature but i think it's in line with the weird sexual encounters some games seem to possess. Suda just obviously doesn't care for conversation wheels and would prefer to get straight to the point.

 

[Arc Christelle]

First of all, this game mode is not two consenting people on a date. That's the whole point. These female NPCs are created to have sex with.

Did you just devolve the concept to prove your point?

 

[Gold_Loot]

First of all, this game mode is not two consenting people on a date. That's the whole point. These female NPCs are created to have sex with.

As to your second point, I'm not here to psychoanalyze anyone or pass judgment. I feel that any media that objectifies women can cause problems in society. There are far worse offenders than this game, but this is the topic at hand. I usually just stay out of threads like this, but I get annoyed at the constant WHITE KNIGHT vs. NERD VIRGIN arguments.

Here's another parting thought because I have to leave for a while:

Why do they call this "Gigolo" mode if the man isn't even being paid? If you think about it, if the women were actually paying for sex that would empower them a little bit - so even that has been removed in this case. And please don't try to say that they are removing it from a moral obligation since obviously they're not concerned about morals anywhere else. In a situation with a real 'gigolo' the woman has the power, she's the client, she's paying, she's controlling the situation. This is just a bizarro Gigolo situation where the man is completely empowered.

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to go too deep into this discussion right now. It it IS two people consenting to have sexual relations.

As far as the word gigolo goes, you DO receive gifts/prizes when the deed is done. So technically, they are paying you.

 

[goo girl]

First of all, this game mode is not two consenting people on a date. That's the whole point. These female NPCs are created to have sex with.

They aren't consenting? So it's rape?