If people can defend gratuitous senseless killing, what is one more heinous crime that society at large condemns?
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Killer is Dead 'can fuck off into space' - Matt Lees talks about "Gigolo mode"
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If people can defend gratuitous senseless killing, what is one more heinous crime that society at large condemns?
metalmachine
Member
notoriousKTR
Member
TheSpoiler
Member
No I read it. "What if" scenarios are great because they never happened but we can pretend they did!
I'm going to pretend I'm a dragon. Rawwrrr! I breathe fire and have lots of wings. Like six.
You can presume all you want, but just like with Suda, you don't know the context, you don't get to judge.
You don't ogle in Mass Effect, you stockpile red or blue points.
Yeah, it was a dumb, funny scene and that's it. Suda tends to shove this shit down everyones throats.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
I KNOW RIGHT? MY GOD why can't everyone see how fun it is to look at bras and undies in a game?? also giving shitty gifts to have sex in a game is so muuchh fun!!!
I wish Suda would concentrate more on having decent Gameplay instead of working on shitty creeper minigames.
TheSpoiler
Member
Men are aimed towards boobs and butt and sexual things. Everything is made for men to look at these parts.
Which falls in many cases when the intent was never made for that purpose and instead for parody, artistic purposes, and just creating a female body in general.
Matt Lees is an awesome, intelligent (and funny) game journalist. Some people here acting like he is an idiot based on one video because he's offended by something in a game and has an opinion about it 'can' also 'fuck off into space' if you ask me.
The people here defending Suda 51; the fact the game might still be good or that this is an optional mode doesn't make it any less tasteless (and I feel a lot of people here simply defend Suda 51 because they love his games). Even if you're not bothered by it (which I am neither to be honest, I'm not easily offended) the fact that HE is and loses his respect for Suda 51 by being offended like this should be completely understandable. If the mode is meant to be silly or sarcastic, it sure sounds like there is no real 'context' for it. That means the game is just straight up being offensive, which is acceptable to a certain extent (for example; the violence in Uncharted is over-the-top without context, yet it doesn't come across as anything but silly and thus isn't offensive) but this might be crossing the line for a few people and rightfully so. Yes, the game isn't meant to be serious, but that doesn't make something like this justified all of a sudden. It also wouldn't be OK to put racism or rape in a wacky game like this 'just because'.
Even if Matt Lees overreacts a bit at the end of the video, he's just trying to say Suda 51 is not a RESPECTABLE game developer anymore if he does stuff like this. The title of the video is more wordplay than a 'Suda 51's career in gaming is dead after this game' kind of statement.
Oh, and people saying it's 'just a video game' and instantly write this off as a non-issue are exactly the people who keep our medium from growing into something more mature. Not every game needs to become The Last of Us, and I love games like Saints Row 3, but we really need to get some higher standards when it comes to the treatment of certain subjects.
The people here defending Suda 51; the fact the game might still be good or that this is an optional mode doesn't make it any less tasteless (and I feel a lot of people here simply defend Suda 51 because they love his games). Even if you're not bothered by it (which I am neither to be honest, I'm not easily offended) the fact that HE is and loses his respect for Suda 51 by being offended like this should be completely understandable. If the mode is meant to be silly or sarcastic, it sure sounds like there is no real 'context' for it. That means the game is just straight up being offensive, which is acceptable to a certain extent (for example; the violence in Uncharted is over-the-top without context, yet it doesn't come across as anything but silly and thus isn't offensive) but this might be crossing the line for a few people and rightfully so. Yes, the game isn't meant to be serious, but that doesn't make something like this justified all of a sudden. It also wouldn't be OK to put racism or rape in a wacky game like this 'just because'.
Even if Matt Lees overreacts a bit at the end of the video, he's just trying to say Suda 51 is not a RESPECTABLE game developer anymore if he does stuff like this. The title of the video is more wordplay than a 'Suda 51's career in gaming is dead after this game' kind of statement.
Oh, and people saying it's 'just a video game' and instantly write this off as a non-issue are exactly the people who keep our medium from growing into something more mature. Not every game needs to become The Last of Us, and I love games like Saints Row 3, but we really need to get some higher standards when it comes to the treatment of certain subjects.
But what if...what if he WOULDN'T condone actively raping women in video games? That would mean you were just spouting a bunch of bullshit to try and present him in a negative light.
you're just setting up some strawmen
Especially in a game where i will be slicing people into bloody ass giblets and having a damn good time doing so! Can't wait!
I probably wouldn't feel comfortable playing a game where I rape someone, and would most likely skip it completely, even though I'm very interested in it now, but he's still allowed to make a game with a rapist character. Games (art in general, really) have no obligation to teach us how to behave and what's right and wrong.
But...he doesn't. He doesn't "tend to shove" anything down anyone's throat. This minigame...is optional. It's something that can be skipped entirely, like hookers or dancers in the grand theft auto series.
He actually is concentrating on having decent gameplay. Have you actually went out of your way to see actual gameplay footage (which looks very fluid), or are you going to continue spouting hate towards an optional minigame?
So why does Killer is Dead need to fall into the higher standard TLOU category and not the SR3 category? Why does SR3 get a free pass?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's just Suda... of all people... if someone think this is out of place for Suda, I think they never got what he was about.
Everything that's ever been in a grindhouse film from the 60s or 70s: gore, girls, sex, leather jackets, machetes, rape, monsters, badasses, revenge..... you should fully expect each and every one of these things referenced in a Suda game at some point.
Doesn't excuse it, if you are offended by those things. But the "I've lost respect for Suda now".... really??
So you made up an irrelevant "What if?" and made assumptions. Nice job.
Honestly he amount of hyperbole and knee-jerk reactions that fill hot topic debate threads to the brim is fucking crazy.
TheSpoiler
Member
Because somehow, SR3 is parody and anything that Suda does is not?
Or rather, cherrypicking!
It's more that Suda is succumbing to just doing what otaku Japan does...and not ironically or anything. The most salient point this dude made is that Suda51 used to make interesting games, and now he's just doing hentai game bullshit. It's not surprising or interesting anymore, it's just "ugh". This isn't even a new problem with Suda's games, Killer is Dead is just cementing it more with Gigolo Mode.
Personally, I don't buy that this is "commentary on typical tropes in videogames". If it's commentary, it's really dimwitted. It's not subverting anything about otaku culture at all, it's not even really doing anything different with it. It's just stupid stuff. If Suda wants to stop doing interesting things and just make bullshit, then fine...but like this guy said, he's losing coolness and respect points for doing so.
Pretty much unenforceable without resorting to censorship by force.
I don't like censoring artistic expression.
reptilescorpio
Member
Is satire like sarcasm now where some people find it hard to pick up on it?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
All I've seen is a LOT of button mashing, suspect framerate, and flashy colors. It looks like a "cooler" Lolipop Chainsaw, gameplay wise
This is a Suda 51 game, the slicing people into giblets will suck and the boss fights will maybe be fun.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
backlash from pc GAF ? might have to check this game out lol.
Sex is still always the reward for doing certain stuff. Never is some character attracted to you because she/he ie just attracted to you.
Dragon Age 2 did it kind of well with Aveline who you can flirt with all you want but in the end she'll tell you that she's just not interested.
Hamlet Machine
Member
Nice one !
On the subject : maybe I'd give more thought to what this Matt Lee is saying if I was not 99% sure that he watched/ or is still watching porn movies, which probably conveys a far more degrading image of women ; that he probably had sexual intercourses with sexualized women without having, prior to that, a deep conversation about Heidegger... just a couple of drinks..
It invalidates (to me, as this is my opinion) he's whole morale standpoint.
He just had to put his face on the internet to show how good and virtuous he is so that he can copy/paste this video into his Facebook wall so that all the girls can see how nice he is .. so that he can have sexual intercouses !
Nice plan man !
Anyway, that mini-game is harmless.
It's gameplay that is actually respectable in a suda directed game, something that he's had trouble with making for the longest time. For all extreme action oriented games, you really have to give this one the benefit of the doubt; harder difficulties will exist where simply "mashing" can get you nowhere.
Really? Cause i find No More Heroes to still be one of the best games on the Wii, easily.
Pretty much the Dragons Crown faux outrage bullshit again, only this time it's not from one of Shitaku's "journalists".
...Not sure how Avelline is a good example, really
Good to know. I'll get that one then. This is fucking awesome, I didn't watch it all because I don't want to get spoiled.
Worst case scenario, if I still can't manage to stand the gameplay, I'll just watch a walkthrough on youtube, seems to be worth it.
I wish I had someone to slap me in the face and tell me to keep playing, it really seems to be rather unique.
I watched the video, and heres my reply. I havent read the entirely of the thread yet, so please excuse my if Ive missed something already written here! Also keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and is in no way reflective of XSEED Games, my employer.
- "You seduce women in a bar using X-Ray glasses."
Untrue. Mondo is modeled after James Bond ("Mondo" and "Bond" sound the same in Japanese), and his escapades with women were meant to be a reflection of the "man every woman wants" thing. Basically, as you progress through the game, women will call Mondo and beg for a date. You can go on these dates in locations that vary depending on the girl, not just bars, and yeah, you do what a dude who has only one thing on his mind does (not saying every dude, just that kind of dude) and stare at her a hell of a lot. The glasses are not used to seduce; they're used in a couple of ways, including as 'x-ray' glasses and to also look inside of her heart and figure out her likes and dislikes so you can give her gifts that she likes. Its worth noting you can get by just fine without them.
- "She's referred to as a 'target'"
This is a half-truth. This is not a game where Mondo finds a chick and literally beelines towards her and relentlessly hits on her. The entire game is presented on a world map of sorts, and you scroll through various locations where you choose your missions. 'Targets' are the character you are directly interacting with for said mission, and it is used to describe both the girls in Gigolo Mode as well as your targets of execution in story mode. It's not exclusively to the women as the video makes it sound and shouldnt be interpreted in a negative light.
- "By look at her breasts and crotch, she will, of course, like you more."
Worded incorrectly. It's true that you're basically ogling your date while she isn't looking, but if she catches you, she'll be hella pissed off. There's a meter on the right that's indicative of her mood, and if you stare too much, you obviously won't be having a very good date by the end. Some of these endings are pretty hilarious, and if youre not into this whole Gigolo Mode thing, you might find them to be sweet justice.
- "If you are successful at checking out her nips, you gain the ability to use gigolo glasses."
Incorrect. Again, the glasses are unlockable or available as pre-order DLC.
- "ludicrously proportioned"
As a female, I'll say that's actually wrong as well. I actually changed the measurements myself in the English version to be a more accruate and proportionate reflection of their character models, since I know a thing or two about female measurements.
- "The more you stare at this woman's bosoms, the more you learn what her favorite things are"
Incorrect. The gigolo glasses DO tell you the things that she likes whether you decide to stare at her lingerie or not (hell, you can look to the side if you're uncomfortable for that part). You can also get a good idea of what each girl likes based on, well, them. Obviously a girl like Koharu, who is presented as very demure, is probably not going to like a flashy watch, and obviously a go-getter like Natalia isn't going to have any interest in a cute baby doll as a gift. Gift-giving is so ridiculously over-the-top like the rest of the game, and it's silly as all get-out. Dont take it seriously, have fun with it.
- "But the selection of things that these women like is downright offensive."
Flowers - Not sure about how offensive giving a single red rose to a girl is. Cliche, yes, but hardly offensive.
Booze - You buy her a drink, its presented in the same manner as other gifts. You can give a Schnapps bottle as a gift though, but I dont know, booze is a pretty sweet gift.
Money- INCORRECT, COMPLETELY INCORRECT. You can give a commemorative gold coin, and it does not translate to cash. You DO NOT give cash to your dates as gifts. I cannot believe how inaccurate this is.
Worth noting that other gifts are like a Japanese fan, chewing gum, or a necklace. This video pulls pulls out the ones he finds offensive and sort of abstracts them.
- "They give you a present"
True, but he's making it sound like a trade, like, Hey, thanks for the sex, heres something in exchange. The girls declare that they made a gift exclusively for you, which can be pretty interesting items. It's silly, but I interpreted Natalia as one badass chick when she made me a Drill Arm. Like, a complex device you attatch to your mechanical arm to bust walls and fight enemies. Coooooool.
- "Not about waving a flag of gender equality"
I have to admit, I hate this kind of card being pulled. Not every damn game has to be politically correct. This game actually does have characterized women outside of Gigolo Mode, including your boss whom you respect because she's business-smart and no-nonsense, your upbeat assistant, an elegant, mysterious woman, as well as targets for execution and clients who hire you to do the executing during story mode. In fact, more women are in story mode than in Gigolo Mode.
This is also Mondos story, a guy designed to be charismatic who cuts off heads and travels the world (and the moon, the freaking moon) for a living and meets beautiful women in the process. Its not meant to be a politically correct game and doesnt even try to pretend it is, which, I think, is far more offensive. And since Ive played quite a few SUDA 51 games, I can say hes never the type to be that politically correct in any of his work anyway- this game is, completely, a SUDA title. Is it kind of stupid? Yeah, it definitely is. Youll either laugh at it or feel slightly uncomfortable; I was the former, as, like with anything else in a game that has tiger tattoos coming to life and unicorns and a Hansel and Gretel/Alice in Wonderland house, I noticed it was completely ridiculous. Purposefully so.
This video also doesnt note that these missions, while a chance to gather unique and useful gifts, is completely optional. If you dont like it and just want to play through the story? You can do that, its no problem. The story itself is high action, fast and furious, and full of unlockable abilities and twists and turns that do not ever require you to go on dates or try to get lucky.
Im not going to say its wrong to be offended by it, but I also think he was giving misinformation and also taking it way too seriously, especially when he had some of the context of the game to go off of.
- "You seduce women in a bar using X-Ray glasses."
Untrue. Mondo is modeled after James Bond ("Mondo" and "Bond" sound the same in Japanese), and his escapades with women were meant to be a reflection of the "man every woman wants" thing. Basically, as you progress through the game, women will call Mondo and beg for a date. You can go on these dates in locations that vary depending on the girl, not just bars, and yeah, you do what a dude who has only one thing on his mind does (not saying every dude, just that kind of dude) and stare at her a hell of a lot. The glasses are not used to seduce; they're used in a couple of ways, including as 'x-ray' glasses and to also look inside of her heart and figure out her likes and dislikes so you can give her gifts that she likes. Its worth noting you can get by just fine without them.
- "She's referred to as a 'target'"
This is a half-truth. This is not a game where Mondo finds a chick and literally beelines towards her and relentlessly hits on her. The entire game is presented on a world map of sorts, and you scroll through various locations where you choose your missions. 'Targets' are the character you are directly interacting with for said mission, and it is used to describe both the girls in Gigolo Mode as well as your targets of execution in story mode. It's not exclusively to the women as the video makes it sound and shouldnt be interpreted in a negative light.
- "By look at her breasts and crotch, she will, of course, like you more."
Worded incorrectly. It's true that you're basically ogling your date while she isn't looking, but if she catches you, she'll be hella pissed off. There's a meter on the right that's indicative of her mood, and if you stare too much, you obviously won't be having a very good date by the end. Some of these endings are pretty hilarious, and if youre not into this whole Gigolo Mode thing, you might find them to be sweet justice.
- "If you are successful at checking out her nips, you gain the ability to use gigolo glasses."
Incorrect. Again, the glasses are unlockable or available as pre-order DLC.
- "ludicrously proportioned"
As a female, I'll say that's actually wrong as well. I actually changed the measurements myself in the English version to be a more accruate and proportionate reflection of their character models, since I know a thing or two about female measurements.
- "The more you stare at this woman's bosoms, the more you learn what her favorite things are"
Incorrect. The gigolo glasses DO tell you the things that she likes whether you decide to stare at her lingerie or not (hell, you can look to the side if you're uncomfortable for that part). You can also get a good idea of what each girl likes based on, well, them. Obviously a girl like Koharu, who is presented as very demure, is probably not going to like a flashy watch, and obviously a go-getter like Natalia isn't going to have any interest in a cute baby doll as a gift. Gift-giving is so ridiculously over-the-top like the rest of the game, and it's silly as all get-out. Dont take it seriously, have fun with it.
- "But the selection of things that these women like is downright offensive."
Flowers - Not sure about how offensive giving a single red rose to a girl is. Cliche, yes, but hardly offensive.
Booze - You buy her a drink, its presented in the same manner as other gifts. You can give a Schnapps bottle as a gift though, but I dont know, booze is a pretty sweet gift.
Money- INCORRECT, COMPLETELY INCORRECT. You can give a commemorative gold coin, and it does not translate to cash. You DO NOT give cash to your dates as gifts. I cannot believe how inaccurate this is.
Worth noting that other gifts are like a Japanese fan, chewing gum, or a necklace. This video pulls pulls out the ones he finds offensive and sort of abstracts them.
- "They give you a present"
True, but he's making it sound like a trade, like, Hey, thanks for the sex, heres something in exchange. The girls declare that they made a gift exclusively for you, which can be pretty interesting items. It's silly, but I interpreted Natalia as one badass chick when she made me a Drill Arm. Like, a complex device you attatch to your mechanical arm to bust walls and fight enemies. Coooooool.
- "Not about waving a flag of gender equality"
I have to admit, I hate this kind of card being pulled. Not every damn game has to be politically correct. This game actually does have characterized women outside of Gigolo Mode, including your boss whom you respect because she's business-smart and no-nonsense, your upbeat assistant, an elegant, mysterious woman, as well as targets for execution and clients who hire you to do the executing during story mode. In fact, more women are in story mode than in Gigolo Mode.
This is also Mondos story, a guy designed to be charismatic who cuts off heads and travels the world (and the moon, the freaking moon) for a living and meets beautiful women in the process. Its not meant to be a politically correct game and doesnt even try to pretend it is, which, I think, is far more offensive. And since Ive played quite a few SUDA 51 games, I can say hes never the type to be that politically correct in any of his work anyway- this game is, completely, a SUDA title. Is it kind of stupid? Yeah, it definitely is. Youll either laugh at it or feel slightly uncomfortable; I was the former, as, like with anything else in a game that has tiger tattoos coming to life and unicorns and a Hansel and Gretel/Alice in Wonderland house, I noticed it was completely ridiculous. Purposefully so.
This video also doesnt note that these missions, while a chance to gather unique and useful gifts, is completely optional. If you dont like it and just want to play through the story? You can do that, its no problem. The story itself is high action, fast and furious, and full of unlockable abilities and twists and turns that do not ever require you to go on dates or try to get lucky.
Im not going to say its wrong to be offended by it, but I also think he was giving misinformation and also taking it way too seriously, especially when he had some of the context of the game to go off of.
I think he's giving you an example of the opposite with her.
I was actually thinking of No More Heroes. Killing moooks gets really tedious because there isn't enough enemy variety, while all the boss fights were really fun.
Touch command used on humans is a running joke in many adventure games, eastern or western.
Source of gameovers as well
TheSpoiler
Member
I love you.
Knux-Future
Banned
I seriously hate thread like this.
Maybe it's just me but it always feels like many simply take a chance to pump themselves up as some superior beings that only play super serious high art games and that they are above this "filth" and that anyone that plays it is trash.
That is what makes it super hard to even discuss anything since it seems like people are getting talked down to.
Nothing is wrong with some silly perversion. It's taking the whole James Bond gets the girl trope to the extreme and it is silly...,.just like Lolipop Chainsaw, NMHs and I'm assuming SOTD.
This is literally the same shit we went over with Dragons' Crown.
If Suda was a super serious director and this game was attempting yo take itself serious then maaaaybe you;d have a point. But it's satire. It's silly.
I just hate when people constantly feel like they have to put down people because they don't like something. This isn't some IceCream type stuff. That's where the line is able to be drawn.
It seems like some want this industry to be nothing but bland safe serious experiences only. The moment you start throwing around ist words is the moment you fuck up any chance of discussion because no one likes being called anything that ends with an ist.
Maybe it's just me but it always feels like many simply take a chance to pump themselves up as some superior beings that only play super serious high art games and that they are above this "filth" and that anyone that plays it is trash.
That is what makes it super hard to even discuss anything since it seems like people are getting talked down to.
Nothing is wrong with some silly perversion. It's taking the whole James Bond gets the girl trope to the extreme and it is silly...,.just like Lolipop Chainsaw, NMHs and I'm assuming SOTD.
This is literally the same shit we went over with Dragons' Crown.
If Suda was a super serious director and this game was attempting yo take itself serious then maaaaybe you;d have a point. But it's satire. It's silly.
I just hate when people constantly feel like they have to put down people because they don't like something. This isn't some IceCream type stuff. That's where the line is able to be drawn.
It seems like some want this industry to be nothing but bland safe serious experiences only. The moment you start throwing around ist words is the moment you fuck up any chance of discussion because no one likes being called anything that ends with an ist.
I don't think this minigame is very misogynistic. But I have a pretty limited definition of what that word means.
It has been twisted to mean pretty much anything negative about women in general, I prefer it to remain closer to the literal "hatred of women by men".
This is perfectly valid criticism and I completely agree with it. Killer is Dead looks really fucking cool, if it had some Platinum level combat it would be absolutely amazing, and no one would miss Gigolo Mode if that was the price.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
I hope nobody complaining in here has ever approached a woman in a bar because they found her attractive and offered to buy her a drink.
I'm not a big fan of suda or any of his past games, and I don't care about this one by everything I know.
That said, I think this video is a bit sensationalistic and a bit of an overreaction.
The dating mechanic he describes is really stupid -- But, for me, it begins and ends there. It's just stupid. And if you're offended by it, I actually think it's somehow LESS offensive than it could be, by virtue of how simplistic, silly, and video gamey it is.
I'm not outraged or prepared to tell anyone to fuck off into space.
That said, I think this video is a bit sensationalistic and a bit of an overreaction.
The dating mechanic he describes is really stupid -- But, for me, it begins and ends there. It's just stupid. And if you're offended by it, I actually think it's somehow LESS offensive than it could be, by virtue of how simplistic, silly, and video gamey it is.
I'm not outraged or prepared to tell anyone to fuck off into space.
Throughout his career, Suda has done games involving themes such as BDSM, suicide, murder, rape, pedophilia, trafficking, taboo, walking on giant nude bodies, phallic weaponry, a world where everything is a sexual metaphor and voyeurism.
I'm not sure why this of all things is the line that's being crossed here, especially since like all the aforementioned themes brought up there's some context to it - the entire game is built on the premise of episodic structures with self-contained stories and this is a side mode exploring more of a character who by all means and purposes is basically a darker version of James Bond.
Shadows of the Damned was more tasteless than this, and that entire game was a bunch of dick-and-pube jokes.
Dude, like I said before, if his other games are anything to go by, there's gonna be elements of it other than this minigame. I'll be pleasantly surprised if not.
saveweyard
Banned
I question, however, if parody needs context to be read as a parody. It may be that the minigame is meant to satirize the conventional portrayal of women in video games while at the same time playing it completely straight to give it more legitimacy. The mode seems drawn out and over-the-top, if a bit heavy-handed, although it is hard to say without actually playing it. Nonetheless, it certainly seems a valid way to read into the mode.
I can also see, however, how it can be read as tasteless. It is the nature of Suda51's games in general. Deeming Suda a tasteless individual himself, however, seems to take into account only one possible analysis of the game.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Exactly.
Unless your game is literally saying "fuck the Jews Hitler all the way" or something in the ridiculous ballpark of that, you're allowed to make it imo
As a consumer you can choose what you want to consume or not. 7 billion or so people on the planet, a good chunk of which play games...not everyone will share your views or values.
Your sacred cow might be their double cheeseburger.
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