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Living in a world where a 7 is average
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
So Clooney and Harrison Ford are supposed to be average guys?
Come on now. Both have had considerable plastic surgery (just have surgeons good enough to make it appear like they haven't)
We may as well say that all 50+ year old women look like Christie Brinkley or Lori Loughlin. By that standard 10/10 is average.
Aditionally pointing out that Guys are allowed to be "Weathered" misses the point that the grizzled rustic older man is a fetished stereotype just as much as any of the female stereotypes you have mentioned and each of those wrinkles are hand crafted. To be "sexy wrinkles" and not "grampa wrinkles"
Body diversity is a big issue especially among female characters, but lets be real "every character is meant to be a supermodel, when they arent someone screwed up."
Even a completely nonsexulised character like Mario is far better looking then your average plumber.
Come on now. Both have had considerable plastic surgery (just have surgeons good enough to make it appear like they haven't)
We may as well say that all 50+ year old women look like Christie Brinkley or Lori Loughlin. By that standard 10/10 is average.
Aditionally pointing out that Guys are allowed to be "Weathered" misses the point that the grizzled rustic older man is a fetished stereotype just as much as any of the female stereotypes you have mentioned and each of those wrinkles are hand crafted. To be "sexy wrinkles" and not "grampa wrinkles"
Body diversity is a big issue especially among female characters, but lets be real "every character is meant to be a supermodel, when they arent someone screwed up."
Even a completely nonsexulised character like Mario is far better looking then your average plumber.
Xist2inspire
Member
Honestly, this is a societal issue that just might be as old as human history itself. Humanity has always put the "ideal figure" on a pedestal, and just what image is considered "ideal" has varied throughout history. You can look throughout any form of visual media you choose, regardless of the intended demographic, and some form of the "ideal" image will show up. Even the things that we value in the opposing gender, as well as our own, are tied to that image.
Basically, this ain't something that we can realistically expect gaming to take the lead on.
Basically, this ain't something that we can realistically expect gaming to take the lead on.
I have absolutely no problem with what you've said, I agree with that.
All I got out of this thread now is feeling shit about myself and have started reconsidering dumping some of my savings into corrective surgeries.
Sorry everyone, I know it's not all about me and this isn't a place for my personal diary, or even on topic any more.
/exit.
Culture. Culture changes. The visual representation of women in video games will continue to change too.
The importance of gameplay lets video games make more changes to their visuals and take more risks than say movies.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Have you seen Logan? Because Hollywood don't care.
Stormblessed
Member
It's not really that different from any other media in that there is little interest in having average or ugly people in your escapist fantasy unless they're comic relief. Plays to cognitive biases, too - attractiveness has a halo effect, which makes it easier to clearly signal to the audience which of your characters are the heroes and which the villains.
Stallion Dan
Member
Is the bald headed woman with a moustache in the Watch Dogs pic meant to fit with the other women's looks?
Please don't leave. The discussion is important.
And yes it is considered problematic that male characters can have personality traits to make up for their looks while female characters can't. You stated the double standard yourself.
What a load of rubbish. Can you explain precisely what "way" evolution made women that you can see in these examples?
Lol
Lionel Richie
Member
Yes because nerd shaming over largely meaningless stuff like the Tobey Maguire thing is going to do wonders for the community.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I mean honestly sexist shit like "she looks like a man" should be shamed. Fuck yea it'll do wonders to call that out whenever it crops up. If a person is offended by being told exactly what they're saying/doing when saying shit like that then they're likely a lost cause and wouldn't be convinced regardless. There's only so many times we can go over feminism 101 man, men don't need to be coddled into not being sexist as hell.
Basketball
Member
Don't see this as a defense, but I think the designers took the descriptions of the Rats' clothing as a starting point, and we know they never wore anything really fit for battle. Reading the books, I got the impression that they preferred to dress flamboyant, to the point of impracticality, and I can see Ciri still liking that "style".
Nevertheless, I can't wait to (also) have this
in TW 4.
I actually like this armor piece
but really if it's adult Ciri again further along
she could wear a napkin and obliterate everyone
Guess what, shaming that isn't "nerd shaming", it's shaming sexist bullshit
texhnolyze
Banned
If you wanna use another example example from the game in question, this was called terrible in that downgrade thread and some even insinuated that Bioware intentionally makes female characters "ugly" in the goal of feminism.
because it doesn't look exactly like a photoshopped picture of the model she's scanned from.
Like holy shit.
Yeah, Gaf is embarrassing. That photoshop and people agreeing to it, yeesh.
Lionel Richie
Member
How is it sexist? Keep in mind I'm not talking about all the reactions like people being possibly pissed off for whatever reason and shit like that, but merely bringing up that a female character looks like Tobey Maguire, how is that sexist?
This is basically the subject of like half of Anita Sarkeesian's videos -- the somewhat limited ranges in which female characters can be depicted in video games compared to male characters. It's just the gaming-centered facet of how it happens to one degree or another in all media. "Hollywood Homely" exists as a trope for a reason. Carrie Fisher was a huge example of this recently.
On some level, almost all characters in media including games and movies trend towards idealized appearances. The problem this thread highlights is that character appearances tend to appeal towards the male gaze more often than the other way around, especially in video games. Male characters are usually designed to be who the male player wishes they could be. I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask about or talk about female characters who represented who female players wished they could be. A crucial difference exists between "heroically idealized" and "depicted explicitly for the male gaze."
I've also noticed that female characters in Japanese games tend to suffer from a sort of ageism. Main female characters usually can't look any older than 30 or so. Western games have that problem but slightly less so. Well, character casts in Japanese games in general tend to trend younger because the target audience in Japan is younger.
The Witcher is a slightly unusual case. The books own up to to this somewhat by establishing that sorceresses magically augment their bodies (Yennefer was originally a hunchback). The games apparently omit some details though (like Triss' battle scars). I've seen a lot of arguments back and forth about how CDProjekt chose to depict Ciri compared to how she's described in the books.
On some level, almost all characters in media including games and movies trend towards idealized appearances. The problem this thread highlights is that character appearances tend to appeal towards the male gaze more often than the other way around, especially in video games. Male characters are usually designed to be who the male player wishes they could be. I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask about or talk about female characters who represented who female players wished they could be. A crucial difference exists between "heroically idealized" and "depicted explicitly for the male gaze."
I've also noticed that female characters in Japanese games tend to suffer from a sort of ageism. Main female characters usually can't look any older than 30 or so. Western games have that problem but slightly less so. Well, character casts in Japanese games in general tend to trend younger because the target audience in Japan is younger.
The Witcher is a slightly unusual case. The books own up to to this somewhat by establishing that sorceresses magically augment their bodies (Yennefer was originally a hunchback). The games apparently omit some details though (like Triss' battle scars). I've seen a lot of arguments back and forth about how CDProjekt chose to depict Ciri compared to how she's described in the books.
Well, personally, no. I can't speak for all women, obviously, but growing up female in western society, I felt guilt/shame/jealousy whenever I saw a girl who was prettier than myself. As I grew older, I realised there wasn't anything wrong with me, but that it was society that had the problem and that was giving me these feelings of inferiority and making me feel the need to compare myself to every woman I saw. Of course, it took me to age 30 before I finally got it, and now I get to contend with the fact that my value as a woman is about to fall off the cliff.
The problem with such narrow representation of women in media is that it's easy to forget what real people look like - that a '7' isn't average, that there's also nothing wrong with being ugly.
There are posts in this thread saying that it isn't gaming's business to tackle these issues, that games don't need to be diverse; sure, they don't need to be. But why can't they be? That's the wonderful thing about games, that most people can play them, regardless of whatever body shape you have, or your age, or your gender. Obviously, at the end of the day games need to make money for their creators, and people want to buy an attractive product. But why do the entire female casts of games need to be attractive and young? That just reduces these characters to commodities.
CannonFodder52
Member
Ehhh. Just looked at the other Mass Effect thread. Really gross seeing those photo shops turning the female characters into models.
Entertaining video on the topic of male power fantasy, especially since people keep talking about hot male protagonists in games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coNQAucXoNM
Entertaining video on the topic of male power fantasy, especially since people keep talking about hot male protagonists in games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coNQAucXoNM
GametimeUK
Member
I think we live in a world where 7 is good, but with so many great games being released good doesn't cut it.
Isn't it implied that she's a hunchback but uses magic to conceal it
Straight Edge
Member
Yeah Yen is very old but uses magic to change her appearance.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yes, its not even implied it is explicitly stated.
The Witcher 3 isn't as good an example of what OP is talking about as many other games, mainly because the sorceresses are using magic to look a certain way and most female NPCs look nothing like them. Though the fact that the sorceresses feel the need to change their appearance at all (or that Sapkowski and CDPR wrote them with that inclination) is an example of this trope.
Gotdatmoney
Member
To people talking about the Witcher 3. Why do yall think the female characters all have the power to make themselves look hot? Why is this only like, I dunno, the 8 billionith piece of literature or fantasy to use that trope?
Yall fucking serious?
Yall fucking serious?
FingerBang
Member
I see your point and I think you are right in general, but I disagree when it comes to ugly characters/old characters. I mean, you are quoting Final Fantasy XV and I really struggle to see how any of the men there is ugly. On the contrary, I believe that in the case of FFXV the characters were made to appeal girls more than guys, being all very cute and j-poppey (yeah, it's not a word). And I say this because every time I take the train in Shibuya I see huge posters of Japanese/Korean boy bands that could definitely be in the next DLC for the game, and (sadly) a bunch of girls of all ages taking pictures with those huge posters.
If they were made to appeal to man, wouldn't they be more "manly"?
About the old actors/actresses, I don't really know how bad the situation is, but aren't George Clooney and Harrison Ford still considered attractive? I wouldn't say they are ugly and allowed to perform only because men.
I agree 100% with this.
I suppose you didn't read those posts too well. It's definitely not "all" the female characters that have that "power".
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Do people really wish they could be the characters they play? Having some of their properties, like being as agile and fit as an assassin in AC, or as strong and brave like Chris from Resident Evil, or as beautiful as Yoshi from Yoshi's Island, I can get, but being that person? Most video game characters are reckless brutal scum, many live in dystopian worlds and almost none are particularly clever or have a very nice every day live. I couldn't think of any video game character I'd rather be.
In bioware games the male models are ugly too, it's more obvious with the female characters. Bioware can't model for shit.
In Witcher, Gerald is hot as shit.
Harrison Ford and George Clooney are gorgeous. I'd argue there are more good looking men in the movie industry than there are girls (the marvel movies are some of the most popular movies out there, the men look absolutely stunning and they have to go through HELL to obtain their bodies, if you see the avengers documentary you'll see how much hell Chris Hensworth had to go through to get his body).
The "unattainable standards" argument is absolute nonsense and I'm sick of hearing it. Plenty of girls are just as good looking when they're not sitting at home in their jammies. Go to any cosplay convention and look at the girls cosplaying more titillating characters.
Did you see that cosplayer of 2B in the recent Nier thread? You could argue she was better looking than 2B herself.
Like, I don't doubt that some photoshoots have photoshop and touching up to make the girls look better, but I don't think men are so stupid that they expect their girlfriends to be absolutely flawless.
Sorry, I'll never agree with the notion that girls need to be made as ugly as some male characters, just because some women don't like the fact that men are attracted to them. Maybe you should consider the fact that women like playing as attractive characters too, regardless of gender.
Either way there are plenty of hot guys in games to perv over, especially in japanese games. Even Link is faptastic in Twilight Princess. I'm sick of these double standards, us girls have more than enough good looking guys in games, yes there are also ugly guys in games, but I don't see why that means there should be more ugly girls, I don't see any positive in making characters uglier unless it fits the narrative of the game.
In Witcher, Gerald is hot as shit.
Harrison Ford and George Clooney are gorgeous. I'd argue there are more good looking men in the movie industry than there are girls (the marvel movies are some of the most popular movies out there, the men look absolutely stunning and they have to go through HELL to obtain their bodies, if you see the avengers documentary you'll see how much hell Chris Hensworth had to go through to get his body).
The "unattainable standards" argument is absolute nonsense and I'm sick of hearing it. Plenty of girls are just as good looking when they're not sitting at home in their jammies. Go to any cosplay convention and look at the girls cosplaying more titillating characters.
Did you see that cosplayer of 2B in the recent Nier thread? You could argue she was better looking than 2B herself.
Like, I don't doubt that some photoshoots have photoshop and touching up to make the girls look better, but I don't think men are so stupid that they expect their girlfriends to be absolutely flawless.
Sorry, I'll never agree with the notion that girls need to be made as ugly as some male characters, just because some women don't like the fact that men are attracted to them. Maybe you should consider the fact that women like playing as attractive characters too, regardless of gender.
Either way there are plenty of hot guys in games to perv over, especially in japanese games. Even Link is faptastic in Twilight Princess. I'm sick of these double standards, us girls have more than enough good looking guys in games, yes there are also ugly guys in games, but I don't see why that means there should be more ugly girls, I don't see any positive in making characters uglier unless it fits the narrative of the game.
Jack and the Watch_Dogs ladies are hideous, so I'm not sure what you mean, OP.
The male examples are all super attractive unless they're villains.
There is a media stereotype of beautiful = good, ugly = bad. Turns out people like watching beautiful people doing things, though. Attraction factor is a big audience demand in entertainment.
The male examples are all super attractive unless they're villains.
There is a media stereotype of beautiful = good, ugly = bad. Turns out people like watching beautiful people doing things, though. Attraction factor is a big audience demand in entertainment.
TheRedSnifit
Member
The problem with Andromeda's models isn't that they aren't attractive, it's that they have garbage animations and spend a huge amount of time sitting in some Lynchian uncanny-valley.
*shudder*
*shudder*
Bamboozled
Stiflers Mom
Banned
Isn't it just completely different how the sexes perceive each other?
When it comes to "sexyness", a man isn't just looks, but also "status" and a couple of other things. A man can be quite ugly, but if he has high status and lots of social proof, women may think he is sexy.
Unfortunately, man perceive womens sexyness in a very optical way, and not much else.
And that means for women: around 22 years old, porcelain doll face, long legs, slender body with some (but usually not too much) curves.
Is this sexist? Yeah, it is. But also, it's just how nature works.
When it comes to "sexyness", a man isn't just looks, but also "status" and a couple of other things. A man can be quite ugly, but if he has high status and lots of social proof, women may think he is sexy.
Unfortunately, man perceive womens sexyness in a very optical way, and not much else.
And that means for women: around 22 years old, porcelain doll face, long legs, slender body with some (but usually not too much) curves.
Is this sexist? Yeah, it is. But also, it's just how nature works.
That post isn't saying "all criticism of it is sexist" it's pointing out that the response to Mass Effect Andromeda having some not extremely attractive character designs is that they're ugly and should be changed to be attractive.
Yes there are some really wonky looking animations in that game, but that doesn't explain crap like this:
To be honest, I prefer Bioware's PeeBee look.
Breakfast at Noon
Member
Very good post.
Lanrutcon
Member
I made an old, weathered woman for my DS1 playthrough because I had a specific character in mind. She wore a crapton of heavy armor (with a shawl, not a helmet), a huge shield and a halberd. I wanted her to be an ancient sister of battle, an old crone who's kicked ass for centuries.
It's fun to play something different every now and then.
It's fun to play something different every now and then.
Paracelsus
Member
I won't question personal tastes, but she looks like me after I shave (down to the thinner upper lip, philtrum, wide nostrils too). Shading also makes it look like she gets dark beard after shaving, exactly like me. It's actually the main reason why I never, as in never, shave my beard, worst case I still keep goatee and moustache. I saw her in the rest of the game and it's a coincidence, but that particular shot is terrible.
I don't understand this "unattainable standards" argument I keep hearing. The bodies and looks men have in the movies are GENUINELY unattainable, they have trainers that are paid thousands and are often naturally good looking. Most guys are pretty average and a lot of them let their bodies go when they're in their 30s.
They don't complain.
But when you find that one hot girl in hollywood (I'd argue Scarlett Johannsan is the only actress in hollywood who is actually red hot like the marvel guys) everyone gets up in arms.
This is despite the fact that there are literally plenty of girls who know how to dress well and use make up like magic to make themselves look just as good at face value.
They don't complain.
But when you find that one hot girl in hollywood (I'd argue Scarlett Johannsan is the only actress in hollywood who is actually red hot like the marvel guys) everyone gets up in arms.
This is despite the fact that there are literally plenty of girls who know how to dress well and use make up like magic to make themselves look just as good at face value.
I wouldn't want to play as an ugly character. Video games are a form of escapism, Why would an ugly person want that to haunt him in the fantasy world that he uses to escape the cruelty of life?
Not everyone is going to look like Geralt or Kratos or Nathan Drake in real life but at least they can pretend in their own fantasy world.
Not everyone is going to look like Geralt or Kratos or Nathan Drake in real life but at least they can pretend in their own fantasy world.
rayman1900
Member
I love how in Dark Souls they destroy that notion of beauty with just one single death: passing 10h trying to make the perfect beauty model to only be turned into a creepy ugly undead if you slip off a cliff!