Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Well obviously MM is reading this thread, so at this point it should be obvious to them that they need to show a gameplay demo at PGW.
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Media Molecule Announces New IP, Dreams
- Thread starter zakislam
- Start date
You sure this game won't be VR compatible? I mean it was running buttery smooth 60 FPS on the demo.
I keep watching the video and trying to work out what they're doing technically to get graphics on the screen that look like but it's just so different to anything that I've seen before. Really looking forward to finding out some of the technical stuff as it really is one of the most beautiful games that I've ever seen, it's almost like everything is painted but it's not just an effect on top of what;s there that makes things look a certain way.
From upthread...
In graphics, you're going to have some kind of geometry representation. The typical one is a mesh of triangles approximating a shape. So typical that it's universal in games.
But you can also use mathematical equations that describe a shape - let's say a sphere.
One such equation is one that takes a point in 3D space, and returns the shortest distance from that point to the surface of the shape.
You can use that function in rendering - in a ray tracer, for example, to figure out the point on the sphere that a camera's pixel should be rendering.
So instead of putting a bunch of polygons representing a sphere down a rendering pipeline, you can trace a ray per pixel and evaluate precisely what point on the sphere that pixel should be looking at. You've probably heard of 'per pixel' effects in other contexts - this would be like 'per pixel geometry'.
You can do interesting things with these functions. You can very simply blend shapes together with a mathematical operation between two shapes' functions. You can subtract one shape from the other, with another operation. You can deform shapes in lots of interesting ways. Add noise, twist them. For example, here's a shape with a little deformation on the surface described by a function using 'sin':
This render was produced with a tracing of the function - at every pixel the function was evaluated multiple times to figure out the point the pixel was looking at. Notice how smooth it is - you're not seeing any polygonal edges or the like here. It's a very precise kind of way of rendering geometry.
Now this isn't exactly what Media Molecule is doing. And here's where I diverge into speculation based on tweets and stuff.
(I think) MM is taking mathematical functions mentioned above and evaluating them at points in a 3D texture. So turning them into something they can look up at discrete points - which is a lot faster than calculating the functions from scratch. So, when you're sculpting in the game, it'll be baking the results of these geometry defining mathematical functions and operations into a 3D texture. So that's turning the distance functions into a more explicit representation which you might see referred to as a distance field.
To render the object represented by that texture, they have a couple of options. They could trace a ray and look up this 3D texture as necessary to figure out the point on the surface to be shaded - which is what I thought they were doing previously. But a more recent tweet suggests they are 'splatting' the distance field to the screen, which is sort of a reverse way of doing things. They'll be explaining this at Siggraph.
The advantages are the easy of deforming geometry with relatively simple operations. Doing robust deformation and boolean (addition/subtraction/intersection etc.) operations with polygonal meshes is really hard. Knowledge of 'the shortest distance from a given point to that surface' can also be applied in lots of other areas - ambient occlusion, shadowing, lighting, physics (collision detection). It's a handy representation to have for doing things that are trickier with polygons. UE4 has recently added the option to represent geometry with distance fields for high quality shadowing.
The disadvantage of this - and of using it from top to toe in your pipeline! - is that's it tricky to do it fast, and obviously GPUs and content pipelines etc. are so based around the idea of triangle rasterisation. But GPUs have gotten a lot more flexible lately, so maybe as time wears on we'll see even more less traditional 'software rendering' on the GPU.
They will probably annoucne it when/if they have it ready to demo it to the press. But again that would mean 60fps. I still can't belive what kind of magic would be used to accomplish that.
A couple of people have been throwing guesses at Alex Evans on Twitter. He replied to a couple:
It is a space for making gameplay like LBP. But like LBP also you can make non-interactive pieces too. Games are definitely foremost in their minds. I think they maybe figured people would take that for granted, and the fact that visually it doesn't look like a typical game, but more like cg animations, might have compounded confusion about what it's intended to be. I imagine at Paris Games Week they'll demonstrate gameplay very explicitly.
A couple of people have been throwing guesses at Alex Evans on Twitter. He replied to a couple:
It is a space for making gameplay like LBP. But like LBP also you can make non-interactive pieces too. Games are definitely foremost in their minds. I think they maybe figured people would take that for granted, and the fact that visually it doesn't look like a typical game, but more like cg animations, might have compounded confusion about what it's intended to be. I imagine at Paris Games Week they'll demonstrate gameplay very explicitly.
I hope we can make 2d sprite based stuff, but I'm guessing they are done with uv mapped textures?
Hmm, UI customizability will probably be present in the game, so I wouldn't say they gave up on 2d stuff in one way or another.
I don't think they will allow for other people to barge into your dreams (pods, whathever) without any consent from your part. That would be utter chaos.
Dead Prince
Banned
so they don't have to be using the broadcast feature for people to watch. other than they probably need the game to view.
i wonder what he means by more.
watch (commentate) and/or collab.
what else could you do besides that.
i wonder what he means by more.
watch (commentate) and/or collab.
what else could you do besides that.
maybe some kind of deep internet integration.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Just because you're letting them spectate, it doesn't mean you're letting them edit as well.
They could release a free spectate app as well. Or just the full game with an upgrade purchase option.
Dead Prince
Banned
or everyone use the broadcast feature ;P
You mean like the standard share spectate thing on Twitch but within game? Yep probably could be what they are aiming, not to be limited to 4 people only. You will most likely have an option to choose if you want to allow other people in your dreams as contributors or just spectators (or as a combination). But what I am saying is that they are certanly not planning for anyone to be spectated if the people don't want to.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Low quality, but you could video stream until the game app's downloaded.
SnowFlakeCake
Member
This was the standout game for the whole of E3, MM are probably my favorite studio in all of gaming along with PD. I'm also hugely impressed at how this relatively small studio always create such amazing games, art style and graphically this was the best thing I've seen. Also fuck yes at the reception MM got at the Sony conference, so happy they have such recognition in the gaming industry.
jeff_rigby
Banned
100% compute, no rasterizer! So is it using Spir - Vulcan? There is supposed to be a release version Nov 2015.
Is spir-vulcan what Sony is waiting on for the PS4 OS? It as well as the PS3's browser is missing accelerated rendering which normally uses OpenGL. GLnext = Vulcan. Spir I think solves the two GPU issues; Xtensa processors as low power GPU and AMD GCN for high performance.
8) Sony second GPU patent. Mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and in a Microsoft 2 GPU patent as well as letters to the EU power board.
Is spir-vulcan what Sony is waiting on for the PS4 OS? It as well as the PS3's browser is missing accelerated rendering which normally uses OpenGL. GLnext = Vulcan. Spir I think solves the two GPU issues; Xtensa processors as low power GPU and AMD GCN for high performance.
8) Sony second GPU patent. Mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and in a Microsoft 2 GPU patent as well as letters to the EU power board.
SPIR = Standard Portable Intermediate Representation ?=? Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU. = SPIR code given to Vulcan Vulcan runtime is native to a specific GPU or Compute device (Multiple hardware architecture backends) which can be a CPU, GPU or OpenCL device like an Xtensa processor.http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220120320068%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20120320068&RS=DN/20120320068 said:
Handy Fake
Member
100% compute, no rasterizer! So is it using Spir - Vulcan? There is supposed to be a release version Nov 2015.
Is spir-vulcan what Sony is waiting on for the PS4 OS? It as well as the PS3's browser is missing accelerated rendering which normally uses OpenGL. GLnext = Vulcan. Spir I think solves the two GPU issues; Xtensa processors as low power GPU and AMD GCN for high performance.
8) Sony second GPU patent. Mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and in a Microsoft 2 GPU patent as well as letters to the EU power board.
What's this witchcraft..?
jeff_rigby
Banned
MM's Dreams is using 100% compute, no rasterization. Spir is primarily something like openCL = Compute and SPIR-Vulcan is supposed to have a release version sometime around November 2015.
GPUs are massive 6 billion+ transistor devices which leak power even at zero clock. With larger GPUs and GDDR5 memory, it's not possible to meet mandated and recommended power modes unless you have a small GPU that is used when the larger GPU is powered off. This is why Sony and Microsoft have two GPU patents and AMD recommends small APU + dGPU.where the APU has 2-4 CUs vs. the PS4 's 18.
Handy Fake
Member
Speaking as an utter layman, is that along the lines of .EPS files? So rather than using points then converting them, they're simply keeping the object as a series of points and filling in the gaps on the fly?
I can see that working well with multi-threading then, if I get the gist correctly.
EDIT: Will the large GPU be powered off completely or used as overflow..?
Prototype Viktor
Member
Dunno why people are having this. Where do you think the next generation of game directors and/movie auteur will come from once they hook this up to some sweet VR to hand corner aft this stuff on the cheap
TheOctodad
Member
I'm super excited about this. Way to be different and change things up!
jeff_rigby
Banned
Vulcan translates SPIR to GPU instructions so the 100% compute may only refer to SPIR code. The GPU could support rasterization or not..... As we move to higher resolution like 4K it's more efficient to use ray tracing so we will be moving away from shader - rasterization.
The Larger GPU will be on a power island and turned off if it's not needed but it needs to be powered on automatically and used if more performance is needed.
Handy Fake
Member
Aye, I think I've got the barebones of it. Cheers chief.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Much like most other performance-intensive games, it's probably using whatever compute solution is in the variant of LIBGCM PS4 uses.
Thanks, I'd already read that but I'm going to be honest and say it made absolutely no sense to me. Not because there was anything wrong with it at all but just because it makes no sense to me.
I generally have to wait until down into a more easily manageable DF type thing with idiot proof videos.
juicyfruitas
Member
My guess is that this game is linked to Morpheus in some fashion.
I mean, c'mon...Morpheus = 'God of Dreams' and then you have a 1st Party game called 'Dreams'
Guessing that you use standard Ps4 setup as the basis for creation with option to explore/consume on 2d screen or VR
The demo creations seem tailor made for someone to jack in with Morph and absolutely head melt (or zone out) with the mind bendy environments to explore.
Make it happen, MM/Sony
In a way, our confusion about this is a success for Mm. Why are we confused? Because the graphics looked like CGI and because the trailer showed so many things that no game has ever done (playing as a mama bear, playing a piano and riding a sidewinder in a sci fi setting). So people assume that Mm is taking the same shortcuts as other devs and that we can't actually PLAY any of this because that is what the industry has conditioned us to believe. We're confused because it looks too good to be true but what if it isn't? I think this could secretly be the game of the show for this entire E3 (which would be quite the accomplishment, considering it's the best E3 ever).
wkureservedp2
Member
It sure is a Media Molecule "game".
Chocolate & Vanilla
Fuck Strawberry
Quotation marks? Really?
wkureservedp2
Member
You're right, that was antagonistic for no reason. I apologize for that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no idea what that thing is lol.
Lol wuuuutt? Way to overanalyze it. It could also be that they've shown the game twice and both times they created things and we watched them played back as movies. They're no sorry line, there are no characters, that's no level, nothing. All they've shown is stuff you can make
Dead Prince
Banned
makes you wonder how kid friendly this will be. like is it as easy as picking up the controller and create something.
obviously buying this digital unless they get some LE with a plushie lol.
obviously buying this digital unless they get some LE with a plushie lol.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Sure and I do think there is a lot of game to be had here, hopefully those that are skeptical like yourself are addressed at PGW with MM showing dreams being played rather than made or watched.
Dead Prince
Banned
i rather have both create and played. just to get an idea what i'm getting myself into. the trailer showed neat stuff but i need to see the game side of things so someone can recreate Super Mario 64's Bob-omb Battlefield stage
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
i rather have both create and played. just to get an idea what i'm getting myself into. the trailer showed neat stuff but i need to see the game side of things so someone can recreate Super Mario 64's Bob-omb Battlefield stage
Sure! I would totally go for an hour seminar about how one creates and plays Dreams, but if they are only going to have 5 minutes then I think they should show how it is played.
Dead Prince
Banned
Where's Cerny when you need an hour long presentation.
But yes. Where's Mark Cerny. haven't heard him in ages.
TimeEffect
Member
So is it fair to think of this as a 3D LBP?
Dead Prince
Banned
for me it's an evolution of LBP even though i haven't seen much other than the trailer lol.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Now that would be awesome. Wasn't there something about Cerny working closely with MM and with the team behind The Tomorrow Children?
I'd like to think so in a way, like LBP minus platforming and Sackboy but also 100000x better.
I certainly hope so though, that way I can rebuild PlayStation Home.
Working on Vita 2!!!! just kidding. Probably in early planning stages of PS5.
I'm surprised and glad sony gives a studio this much freedom to do something this weird. I can say it is definitely not for me as I am not a creative type and get bored if just left to make something, but for those that like these sort of things, I can marvel at the crazy whacky stuff that comes from it. Scott Rohde said there would be more at Paris Games Week so hope they show off the tools more in depth.
Whitman's Ghost
Banned
This game looks truly excellent. Cannot wait to see what the community does.