Support NeoGAF

[Messofanego]

Oooh sketchy sketchy. Thanks for bringing this up. I don't really have a say for the art design changes because that happens, even though this change might be more expensive. The other stuff like the unsolicited Japan trip, bannings, and making dev diaries private, are a bit wrong.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Super Retro Squad underwent a change in style from 8-bit to 16-bit (for art and music) and, while I'm sure the game can still be great, it's a bit disappointing to give money for one thing and get handed another. Asking for a lot more money right after that was kinda fucked up too.

Another perfect example. I actually backed Super Retro Squad mostly because the scope was essentially the same as their previous efforts

Damn shame how horribly they mishandled things but they asked for very little money and seem to be back on track using their SMC revenue to piggyback the project

 

[Currygan]

makes me feel glad the only thing I've ever backed is the Sensible Software book, which I have and it's incredible (great attitude from those who made it, as well)

 

[PixyJunket]

Super Retro Squad underwent a change in style from 8-bit to 16-bit (for art and music) and, while I'm sure the game can still be great, it's a bit disappointing to give money for one thing and get handed another. Asking for a lot more money right after that was kinda fucked up too.

Ayup. That's the one that hit me.

I backed SPECIFICALLY because it was being modeled after NES era graphics and sound.

And the "8-Bit DLC" they proposed look terrible and was just insulting.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

"Needs more sex appeal." -> "Did I stutter?" -> "Perfect!"

lulz. I had to post the image one last time just so your comments could be timed with it properly.

EDIT: thought I had the original PSD saved

 

[ban25]

It would be one post.

"Is this a person who has never made a game before? Are they promising a game more amazing than the best professional games you've seen for 6 months minimum wage salary? Do they mostly just have badass concept or pixel art? Are you considering backing it because the game is 'like' ten famous games you loved? Don't back it."

QFT.

There are two points that need to be carefully examined when backing a kickstarter:

- What is the pedigree and work history of the team or individual?
- Is the pledge goal realistic relative to project scope?

In this case, I would say the answers are "Practically Non-Existent" and "Wholly Unrealistic", respectively.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Ayup. That's the one that hit me.

I backed SPECIFICALLY because it was being modeled after NES era graphics and sound.

And the "8-Bit DLC" they proposed look terrible and was just insulting.

Still less offensive than this. At keast they keep updating SMBC lol

I onlt gave them 15 bucks so im not overly bitter. At least I know they will make an actual game

 

[Salamando]

lulz. I had to post the image one last time just so your comments could be timed with it properly.

EDIT: thought I had the original PSD saved

Isn't this what Elise looks like currently (or at least as of 3 weeks ago)?

 

[DrROBschiz]

Doesn't matter. Its very clear that a full game will never be produced

 

[LiK]

what's with all these art changes? should've just stick with the original vision and make the game. save the more ambitious stuff for a sequel if your game is successful.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

Isn't this what Elise looks like currently (or at least as of 3 weeks ago)?

I believe that is the most recent re-re-redesign for her. Mithos still looks like a Cloud/Sora rip-off.

EDIT: keep in mind the redesign above was only AFTER a lot of backers angrily commented that the cleavage and clothing were unnecessarily skimpy, especially considering her role in the game.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

what's with all these art changes? should've just stick with the original vision and make the game. save the more ambitious stuff for a sequel if your game is successful.

It's funny you bring that up. Since this is currently titled "Soul Saga: Episode 1", it's clear he has intentions of making multiple episodes. I believe one of the stretch goals during the campaign was to make the game "more complete", or something like that.

 

[LiK]

It's funny you bring that up. Since this is currently titled "Soul Saga: Episode 1", it's clear he has intentions of making multiple episodes. I believe one of the stretch goals during the campaign was to make the game "more complete", or something like that.

that's true, doubt this guy can even complete the first one if he can't get the art locked down.

 

[Axass]

It's funny you bring that up. Since this is currently titled "Soul Saga: Episode 1", it's clear he has intentions of making multiple episodes. I believe one of the stretch goals during the campaign was to make the game "more complete", or something like that.

Saga eh?

Yeah, even if he could complete the game, he won't be able to sell it anyway according to a certain king.

Joking aside, I've never seen so many concept art changes (overhauls?) in so little time; the "project needs to be redimensioned" stuff is also concerning, just like the private diaries and the trip to Japan. I see what you are worried about and I definitely don't think he'll manage to finish the game.

 

[Dram]

So what happens if he never delivers the game? Will people be able to get refunds or are they SOL?

 

[DrROBschiz]

that's true, doubt this guy can even complete the first one if he can't get the art locked down.

Pretty sure its just a matter of time before it gets canned now lol.

The GAF and Twitter exposure alone Will cascade enough to trash the (alresdy doomed from the start) project.

Not to mention that these kickstarter devs are quickly getting huge targets on their backs.

We have already had several high profile kickstarters flounder at this point. Thr honeymoon is over and reality sets in

 

[Cheddahz]

So what happens if he never delivers the game? Will people be able to get refunds or are they SOL?

Most likely SOL, since he's used the money already

 

[Shengar]

Doesn't matter. Its very clear that a full game will never be produced

You know a dev fucked up when he go to Japan for a new artist but ended up separated and hiring a different one nstead.

 

[DrROBschiz]

The amusement and lessons learned are a more valuable result of the kickstarter than the game itself at this point

 

[Saren is Bad]

Sorry OP. Kickstarter can be a bitch, but as others have said - its one dude with no resume to speak of and no working prototype. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and I wish you the best in resolving your issues.

I almost backed this...really glad I didn't.

 

[Salamando]

So what happens if he never delivers the game? Will people be able to get refunds or are they SOL?

They're SOL. Kickstarter won't do anything. Backers can opt to sue, but with an average donation of like $30, it's only worthwhile for top-tier backers. Someone might....might start a class-action, but that's the exception rather than the norm.

I'll be very, very surprised if I ever see this game. According to a recent blog post, he just started coding. The game's kickstarter ended last July.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

They're SOL. Kickstarter won't do anything. Backers can opt to sue, but with an average donation of like $30, it's only worthwhile for top-tier backers. Someone might....might start a class-action, but that's the exception rather than the norm.

I'll be very, very surprised if I ever see this game. According to a recent blog post, he just started coding. The game's kickstarter ended last July.

Now that others have chimed in and pointed out other issues with this particular project and creator, I feel like this campaign has been one big trolling...not a good feeling.

 

[Ceebs]

I don't see the big deal unless you were only backing due to the art, which is crazy to me to begin with.

All of these kickstarter games and indies being more open with their development have made it abundantly clear that making a game is a juggling act of moving parts. Nothing can be set in stone from day one or you will end up with a subpar game. Which is why you hear so many designers say that stretch goal for systems and features is a terrible idea. It leaves you with something you promised, but it may also not be what is best for the game forcing you to design around them instead of them being organic parts of the game.

I can see being mad if you backed a turn based strategy game and it came out an RTS, but something like an art change seems like something freely subject to change. Hell even big AAA games get sweeping art changes. Take a look at Borderlands for instance.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

I don't see the big deal unless you were only backing due to the art, which is crazy to me to begin with.

All of these kickstarter games and indies being more open with their development have made it abundantly clear that making a game is a juggling act of moving parts. Nothing can be set in stone from day one or you will end up with a subpar game. Which is why you hear so many designers say that stretch goal for systems and features is a terrible idea. It leaves you with something you promised, but it may also not be what is best for the game forcing you to design around them instead of them being organic parts of the game.

I can see being mad if you backed a turn based strategy game and it came out an RTS, but something like an art change seems like something freely subject to change. Hell even big AAA games get sweeping art changes. Take a look at Borderlands for instance.

Did you read the first post? Honest question. I ask because I outlined my reasoning for requesting a refund;

...these drastic art style changes with recent posts from Mike Gale (campaign creator, man behind DisasterCake) stating "major" changes were coming and that he was going to need to "reduce the scope" of the project, and it's only natural some people would begin to question what they backed/invested in.

 

[Saren is Bad]

I don't see the big deal unless you were only backing due to the art, which is crazy to me to begin with.

All of these kickstarter games and indies being more open with their development have made it abundantly clear that making a game is a juggling act of moving parts. Nothing can be set in stone from day one or you will end up with a subpar game. Which is why you hear so many designers say that stretch goal for systems and features is a terrible idea. It leaves you with something you promised, but it may also not be what is best for the game forcing you to design around them instead of them being organic parts of the game.

I can see being mad if you backed a turn based strategy game and it came out an RTS, but something like an art change seems like something freely subject to change. Hell even big AAA games get sweeping art changes. Take a look at Borderlands for instance.

Well he did "reduce the scope" of the project drastically, and potentially wasted a ton of money on a trip to Japan.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I don't see the big deal unless you were only backing due to the art, which is crazy to me to begin with.

All of these kickstarter games and indies being more open with their development have made it abundantly clear that making a game is a juggling act of moving parts. Nothing can be set in stone from day one or you will end up with a subpar game. Which is why you hear so many designers say that stretch goal for systems and features is a terrible idea. It leaves you with something you promised, but it may also not be what is best for the game forcing you to design around them instead of them being organic parts of the game.

I can see being mad if you backed a turn based strategy game and it came out an RTS, but something like an art change seems like something freely subject to change. Hell even big AAA games get sweeping art changes. Take a look at Borderlands for instance.

While I agree with a few of your points that only addresses the OP's complaints and not the huge fundamental issues with the entire pitch.

3D jrpg, one guys, first game, outsourcing art.

Im not trying to say one guy cant make a great game. (Check out lifeless planet) but its a monumental task

 

[Gbraga]

Isn't this what Elise looks like currently (or at least as of 3 weeks ago)?

This one actually looks pretty good. Still prefer the first design, but this is fine.

 

[kuppy]

I guess that (public) update 8 on the blog considers the situation also quite good (despite what was raised in this thread, being the personal qualification and money/time handling).

http://www.disastercake.com/blog/soul-saga-update-8/

ELISE’S REDESIGN

Seriously, why do I do it? Is it because I love you so much? Well if it is, I have to tell you that LOVE HURTS. After taking all of your feedback on the previous Elise redesigns, I passed it off to Aiko-san. She squeezed her creative juices to come up with a new design that took the best of all of the previous designs to bring you the final (note: absolutely freaking final) Elise redesign. Everyone on the team is excited to be pushing the game forward with our new Elise. This Elise maintains her mechanical leg, an important story element, and also introduces her improvised punching glove bag that she keeps all of her tools in. I feel that Elise’s personality fits better with a weapon like this rather than pistols. The bag is swung around to hit enemies, but she can also pull tools out of her bag and use them in combat. The bag is a bit of a comical mystery; Elise seems to have an uncanny ability find a way to store giant tools in it that are bigger than the bag itself. She’s quite the hoarder when it comes to her tools, and always seems to have a tool for the job. “Oh! I’ve got something for that!”

A LOOK BACK AT SOUL SAGA

I’d like to take a moment to glance back at where Soul Saga began and compare it to where it is now. The great success of the Kickstarter mid last year was a huge opportunity for me, and I am eternally grateful to everyone who made that to happen. It enabled me to bring on art that better suited my vision, and it allowed me to work full time on the project so I am unhindered by other jobs.

It hasn’t made everything easier, though. With a budget that’s sitting out for the whole world to see, people decided to raise their prices on me, instead of allowing me to just order more from them. Negotiations are now like playing poker with my cards open on the table, but I can’t see anyone else’s hand. This, and other reasons, caused me to spend a large portion of the year finding new artists… and that was hard.

However, the news of the successful Kickstarter preceded me, and many Japanese artists had already heard of Soul Saga before I even contacted them. Each of them believed in Soul Saga and knew that it would be a great opportunity for them. This made it a bit easier to find some talented people willing to squeeze in time out of their busy schedules within reasonable (though still more expensive) prices. After a long struggle, we’re finally back on track, and I’m very happy with the progress. I firmly believe that I can release Soul Saga into your hands this year if things continue to go well.

So for your enjoyment, here is a comparison of the remakes of the 4 main characters. I knew that the new models were of a much higher quality, but I didn’t realize exactly how much higher until we actually put them side by side like this. I think you’ll also find it very interesting to see how far Soul Saga has leapt in production quality within the past few months.

 

[Gbraga]

I guess that (public) update 8 on the blog considers the situation also quite good (despite what was raised in this thread, being the personal qualification and money/time handling).

http://www.disastercake.com/blog/soul-saga-update-8/

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH ONLY NOW I NOTICED THE LONG HAIR

ANIME IS SAVED

THIS DESIGN IS GREAT.

 

[Salamando]

I guess that (public) update 8 on the blog considers the situation also quite good (despite what was raised in this thread, being the personal qualification and money/time handling).

http://www.disastercake.com/blog/soul-saga-update-8/

While the leap in graphics is quite noticeable, it still worries me. The original graphics seemed fine for the budget they had. The new ones are going to be hell to keep up with. Every monster and location in the game is going to have to keep up with them.

Also means what work I thought they had done wasn't actually done. The game the kickstarter presented felt further along than the game they have now.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

There are "no guarantees," and then there's something like this. In no universe was this likely to succeed.

The guy has never made a game before, and he's starting out with a 3D JRPG on multiple platforms. And thought he could make it for $60k with a handful of people.

So, let's put that in perspective: he's taking on basically the largest-scope genre there is, for his first game project, with not enough money to pay one actual mid-level industry professional for a year. Those are all gargantuan red flags to me.

Stuff like this is why we actually published our budget in our Indiegogo campaign. We took a lot of flak for it being "too much" in some peoples' eyes, but the threat to most campaigns is what is "too little."

I could see a 2 man team making a Bravely default type game. You can crank out the assets pretty quickly with that style. Though I don't know if they could do that for $60k. They would have to ramen it up to survive.

 

[ZeroX03]

vs.

The 'new' design apes Cloud's baggy pants, a circle at the bottom of the sword, the single shoulder pad, long gloves, spikier hair. The original isn't perfect, but much more expressive and less of a blatant rip-off.

 

[Cheddahz]

The 'new' design apes Cloud's baggy pants, a circle at the bottom of the sword, the single shoulder pad, long gloves, spikier hair. The original isn't perfect, but much more expressive and less of a blatant rip-off.

The pose is even the same...

 

[UnrealEck]

All these anime characters look alike to me.

 

[Noogy]

As an investor in this project

I'm not commenting on the project itself or the sequence of events here, but it's VERY important for people to realize that funding a Kickstarter is not the same as becoming an investor.

 

[element]

Apparently it's a service that's needed.

I think modding and Kickstarters have really distorted the public perception of what it costs to make games. And most of the people giving to these are probably HS and college students, so they don't know how much it costs to support a team, etc. I mean, did you see the hyper-poisonous thread about our IGG campaign?

I can really only think of one other successful KS this egregious, though.

I think this is one of the more serious blowbacks of the whole KS phenomenon. When people think they are going to get a AAA quality game for $400,000, they are seriously delusional.

The one thing that this KS doesn't have is a team. Where are the programmers? Where are the artists? Who has the production knowledge? Making a game is hard and with the scale of the game, you are going to need good people AND need people that are passionate about it, meaning they driven by the project not money. I see none of that here.

Also digging deeper, he was a contract tester at Microsoft, not even a full time employee, but in all his interviews would talk about his background as a "former Microsoft employee" which isn't true. Hell, if you look at MobyGames, he wasn't even on the primary test team, but in the reserves. Out of the gate he misrepresented himself.

 

[PixyJunket]

The 'new' design apes Cloud's baggy pants, a circle at the bottom of the sword, the single shoulder pad, long gloves, spikier hair. The original isn't perfect, but much more expressive and less of a blatant rip-off.

I find it funny (or sad) that (seemingly) everyone got up in arms about the female character having breasts, but nobody seems to mind this shameless theft.

 

[I.R.I.S.]

It hasn’t made everything easier, though. With a budget that’s sitting out for the whole world to see, people decided to raise their prices on me, instead of allowing me to just order more from them. Negotiations are now like playing poker with my cards open on the table, but I can’t see anyone else’s hand. This, and other reasons, caused me to spend a large portion of the year finding new artists… and that was hard.

As a lurker, this sounds like bull. There are plenty of freelance anime artists online, who have set rates on their art. The idea that everyone would "raise their price" just makes it seem like he underestimated the actual cost of an artist and is searching for the cheapest one possible. And in no way do you have to go to Japan to locate a quality anime artist. Sounds to me like a shoddy justification for a personal expense. Or even worse, that no artist can get along with him because of bad management skills.

 

[Shengar]

The 'new' design apes Cloud's baggy pants, a circle at the bottom of the sword, the single shoulder pad, long gloves, spikier hair. The original isn't perfect, but much more expressive and less of a blatant rip-off.

Not to mention that the new design looks completely out of place when he stand side-to-side with the heroine.
Too bad since the third redesign heroine is actually good.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

The chibi characters all look better than their newer counterparts. Wtf did they do to that robot?

 

[ZeroX03]

Found the original concept art for the main character. Thought he looked familiar... (Marche from FFTA)

vs.

 

[element]

As an investor in this project

This is something that needs to change with how people view Kickstarter. You are not an investor. You are purchasing 'something', which could actually turn out to be nothing than the desktop background or t-shirt they send you.

Investing in something has the potential for positive return on your investment, and with KS you never see a return on your money.

It is a pre-purchase system at this point.

 

[LiK]

Found the original concept art for the main character. Though he looked familiar... (Marche from FFTA)

ah, was wondering why it looked familiar to me.

 

[JoeyJungle]

I really regret backing this project. I wanted to support JRPGs on the PC, and this game looked so promising and full of personality in the campaign. Now with every update the game looks more and more trite. I mean, JRPGs aren't the most innovative genre, but I feel like the style started at Grandia and arrived at FF7 deviantart.

 

[Aaron]

If you're backing a project that's not by a seasoned developer, you have to accept there's a chance that shit like this is going to happen. From the inexperienced to straight up crooks, there's a lot of people on kickstarter, and if they don't have a reputation to lose, there's not much incentive to resist temptation.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

This is something that needs to change with how people view Kickstarter. You are not an investor. You are purchasing 'something', which could actually turn out to be nothing than the desktop background or t-shirt they send you.

Investing in something has the potential for positive return on your investment, and with KS you never see a return on your money.

It is a pre-purchase system at this point.

We could argue semantics, but to me, I "invested" in this project. The "positive return" would be me enjoying the game I invested my money into. That said, once projects add all these "rewards", it definitely turns into more of a pre-order system than an investment.

 

[element]

As a lurker, this sounds like bull. There are plenty of freelance anime artists online, who have set rates on their art. The idea that everyone would "raise their price" just makes it seem like he underestimated the actual cost of an artist and is searching for the cheapest one possible. And in no way do you have to go to Japan to locate a quality anime artist. Sounds to me like a shoddy justification for a personal expense. Or even worse, that no artist can get along with him because of bad management skills.

Knowing the talent pool here in Seattle, he could have just hired someone to do concepts and then hired someone local to actually make the assets. This idea of 'going to Japan' for artist just sounds insane.

Hell looking at places like odesk, you have a number of options out there.

We could argue semantics, but to me, I "invested" in this project. The "positive return" would be me enjoying the game I invested my money into. That said, once projects add all these "rewards", it definitely turns into more of a pre-order system than an investment.

An old co-worker did the KS for RimWorld that ended up doing very well. He was very upfront about it what he needed the money for. He also made it clear, no stretch goals and no physical goods.

 

[Sharp]

Sorry to hear about what happened, OP. I think so far other than delays I've been pretty lucky, the Kickstarters I backed successfully seem to all be doing okay (and I've backed quite a few). I guess as the games continue to come out we'll see how many of them really live up to their initial promise, but I've been very pleased so far. Then again, I haven't taken a *ton* of risks, mostly backing the bigger projects with a sprinkling of indies that looked really interesting to me. It seems overall like just a few projects take a really bad turn like this one, so to me they don't invalidate Kickstarter as a platform, but they make for great cautionary tales.

 

[jackal27]

I backed this Kickstarter and have had shady feelings about for a whole now. I've kind of accepted that I may never play this game at this point. It happens though.

Every other Kickstarter I've backed has been a massive success so if this one flops, I'll get over it. Hopefully at least something decent will come out of it though.

 

[PixyJunket]

Found the original concept art for the main character. Thought he looked familiar... (Marche from FFTA)

Yikes.