Spot on. This game was never going to get made. If you backed this, you should give me all your money instead so I can waste it on more sensible stuff like lottery tickets and drugs.
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My Kickstarter Nightmare: Soul Saga Edition
- Thread starter Elessartelrunya
- Start date
Spot on. This game was never going to get made. If you backed this, you should give me all your money instead so I can waste it on more sensible stuff like lottery tickets and drugs.
BMX Bandit
Member
VAN GOGH'S BROTHER GAVE HIM FREE PAINTS.
he said to me.
he said to me.
Go right ahead, buddy. Even the kickstarters that ask for "menial sums" don't get shit if they don't have anything to show.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
That's fine, he can now create a kickstarter complaining that "mean forum members don't think I can fundraise, show those MEANIES that they're wrong"
guaranteed success
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
My favorite KS. The way KS themselves handled that mess was pure brilliance. Let everyone else duke it out while we take our cut and publicity.
Not saying this is a good thing but I'm pretty sure this is true of most major kickstarter 'gameplay' videos. It's incredibly easy to fake gameplay via scripted sequences, in fact many non kickstarter games do the same thing (The amount of promotional material that is faked in the games industry would blow minds). A famous example of which is the HL2 reveal.
Edit - You're a developer right? You probably know all this stuff already
I've seen a ton of legit projects with demos fail. Even if you set out with the express purpose to make a scam videogame Kickstarter, unless you're a big name you will have to put in a ton of effort in order to actually get anything out of it. That's not to say there aren't any scams, but I think they're a lot easier to pull off for other types of projects--actually, I recall reading that videogames are funded at one of the lowest percentages of any category.
element
Member
I've had to make them for pitches for publishers. It isn't uncommon at all. Though in those instances they have been labeled as examples or potential. Last thing you want to have happen is have a publisher get interested and then ask to see the build of what you showed off.
There are countless games that fake it, but there are a good number that don't such as Troubadour, La-Mulana 2, Kingdom Come: Deliverance. I love the guys at Uber, but their sizzle video was very important for Planetary Annihilation, because they had a primitive prototype at the time of the KS.
yep.Edit - You're a developer right? You probably know all this stuff already
This has been doing the rounds lately and is the closest I've seen to something like that - http://evilasahobby.com/2014/01/18/...game-projects-fully-deliver-to-their-backers/
It seems pretty difficult to track if a game Kickstarter actually delivers or not - most that run into problems just push out their timeline or change the nature of what they're delivering, and outside the bankruptcies and project cancellations it's very easy for a project to 'go dark' and leave everyone wondering.
Not saying this is a good thing but I'm pretty sure this is true of most major kickstarter 'gameplay' videos. It's incredibly easy to fake gameplay via scripted sequences, in fact many non kickstarter games do the same thing (The amount of promotional material that is faked in the games industry would blow minds). A famous example of which is the HL2 reveal.
Edit - You're a developer right? You probably know all this stuff already
Usually I'm better at not buying into Demo or Video hype. I know that these are full of moments hand-picked to place the game in the best light possible. Guess this time I just fell for the magic of the kickstarter. Oh well. Some people spent hundreds on an Ouya that's failed to live up to its potential, I spent $15.
Though the more I hear about this, more I'm wondering...is this really just a guy who underestimated the entire development process, or a planned cash-grab?
No one is defending the ones who abuse the system or fail to deliver (though, there are different levels of fail, if it's due to some stupid use of money, then it's not ok, but if it's some disaster that you couldn't have anticipated, then it's a whole other deal), but those are usually in the minority when it comes to successfully funded projects. And no, if you run a scam, you wouldn't be unaccountable, don't be stupid. People can still sue your ass so hard outside Kickstarter that you will definitely have to face the consequences if you just took the money and ran.
Because we are beginning to get awesome games like Banner Saga, Broken Age, Wasteland 2, FTL, Broken Sword 5 and others are looking mighty fine (the likes of Pillars of Eternity) + there are still potentially awesome games that would still have a hard time getting made without Kickstarter. And again, not everyone is as selfish as you probably are. If I can help some great developers keep doing what they do with a menial sum of 10-30$ (sometimes more if there are awesome physical reward tiers that don't cost ridiculous sums), getting the game is enough. I don't need to see any of the money these people get from sales.
IdreamofHIME
Member
The redesigns are crazy, so much has changed. If you're gonna kickstart your game, you have to realise you hooked you backers with a particular idea.
Most Kickstarted games get delayed significantly, which I already knew. But like I said earlier in the thread, all of my Kickstarted games that were actually successfully funded appear on track to deliver (fully or "partially") which seems unlikely if I were selecting them at random and they have a 50% rate of failure to deliver at all. So either I'm really damn good at selecting Kickstarters, the smaller titles aren't as likely to deliver (possible, but contradicted by that same post, which states that smaller projects are more likely to succeed), or the chart creator should probably wait a bit longer before concluding his analysis.
Some steps forward, some steps back...
In one sense, it's clear that the dev really had no idea what the hell it really meant to make a game like this. I don't view this as a scam, I view it an unbelievably naive child asking for the world.
The denizens of the internet, however, quick to see phrases like "A love letter to J-RPG classics from the Playstation era like Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and Persona", jumped right the fuck on that train. I feel sorry for them, in a way, but if nothing else, the internet is getting a little glimpse into the incredible difficulties of game development, and just how expensive it could be.
Kickstarter is a wonderful tool, but in general, you should mitigate risk by only going with people who have shipped a title or have an incredible working demo. This person had neither.
In one sense, it's clear that the dev really had no idea what the hell it really meant to make a game like this. I don't view this as a scam, I view it an unbelievably naive child asking for the world.
The denizens of the internet, however, quick to see phrases like "A love letter to J-RPG classics from the Playstation era like Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and Persona", jumped right the fuck on that train. I feel sorry for them, in a way, but if nothing else, the internet is getting a little glimpse into the incredible difficulties of game development, and just how expensive it could be.
Kickstarter is a wonderful tool, but in general, you should mitigate risk by only going with people who have shipped a title or have an incredible working demo. This person had neither.
But sometime people at the first try need an help and kickstarter an do that.
Maybe if is developer first project. the best thing to do is backing the small reward that give you the game.
That's true, sometimes people do need help taking a first step.
But a first step isn't an ambitious PS1-style JRPG. They're not exactly AAA development level challenges anymore, but it's still not a one man job. The guy has basically no experience and no team.
If he'd asked for $5-10k to build a puzzle game/arcade shooter/something simple over a few months to hone his skills in Unity, that would have been reasonable from both a skill and financial perspective. Instead he got $200k - probably still not enough to complete something close to what was promised at $60k - and is way over his head.
Truth be told, I'm not fully convinced I would have backed Sequence had I randomly stumbled across it. I had no credentials at the time, and I would have estimated the probability of completion to be fairly low.
At the same time, Kickstarter was a nearly unknown quantity at the time, and the goal was ludicrously low ($600). It was definitely a different situation.
I would have, the pitch was a little spartan but it told people that it was a smallish production with not pretensions of changing the landscape of music games, and the entry tiers were low enough for people to not see this as a risk. There are a couple of games I back considering them as a donation knowing full well that I might get nothing in return (like Ghost Song), its easy to tell apart from those kind of projects to something like Kingdom Come.
Haha wow, that's awesome!
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
There's that word again.
(laugh) Aw dude you should have asked, I would have hooked a fellow GAFfer up (I have a bit of a history of doing so)
Poetic.Injustice
Member
It was in the very first video where he stated that the designs were not final, don't see why people are getting so upset about it now.
Yep, just checked the Soul Saga Facebook page. Someone had linked to this thread on the page, and it's been taken down. This guy is scrubbing the evidence of his misbehavior on FB/forums etc. Pretty sad sight.
Haha, and in the same way I don't mind helping a fellow GAFer who's making great stuff.
Haha, and in the same way I don't mind helping a fellow GAFer who's making great stuff.
I will never, never drop even one penny on any kickstarter. Handing out free money without a return or a pledge to complete the game in the name of "supporting independent developers?"
No, thanks.
Kickstarter essentially, in its score, is one big scum. Right now and considering all past events and currently this one, it only needs one big hit before the plug is pull off; one big title where it mounted millions of dollars to get cancel and this whole idea, this whole project will shut down completely.
No, thanks.
Kickstarter essentially, in its score, is one big scum. Right now and considering all past events and currently this one, it only needs one big hit before the plug is pull off; one big title where it mounted millions of dollars to get cancel and this whole idea, this whole project will shut down completely.
KS is no more an investment than it is a pre-order. The closest traditional analogue is patronage.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
How ridiculous. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater much? The Banner Saga, Valdis Story, and the new Shadowrun games, among others, are strong evidence that your "Kickstarter is one big scam" statement is complete bollocks.
While you might want the world to burn, the stock exchange didn't close forever after its first collapse, and neither is kickstarter from a large failure. As long as success outweighs failure it will keep going, but maybe the rare incidents like this will make people wiser about where they put their money. The entire videogame industry died once, but ET didn't prevent the Last of Us from existing.
You just have to carefully look at the Kickstarters, look at what people think, or just have a good gut feeling. I personally didn't have much faith in a new JRPG styled game from unknowns made outside of Japan as most of those haven't been so hot, whereas the likes of inXile and Comcept are established by veterans and have a clear idea what to do.
And Kickstarter's been around for awhile with some failings, and I'm not even sure the really bad ones CAN draw that kind of funding. As in, millions and millions with nothing to show.
Call me cruel, but I find it *really* hard to sympathise with people who knowingly backed a project by a SINGLE guy, with minimal/sketchy game design experience, who quite blatantly bit off waaaaaaay more than he could chew. I mean, he's trying to ship a game across Window, PS4, Vita and Wii U for christs sake. That's an insane amount of work for a team of 20 working on a very simple indie platformer, let alone a JRPG...
I'm sorry, but expecting one man to effectively manage an entire project of this scope, with this much disposable income, without any prior games shipped is just a recipe for losing your money. I am 99.999999% certain that the game will be in perpetual limbo for years and will eventually be cancelled with yet another kickstarter creator sob-story about mismanagement of funds and how life has been cruel/someone else is to blame for the failure etc etc...
Kickstarter campaigns are far too open to abuse and I refuse to back any of them now, unless I am certain that what is offered will be delivered. It's far too easy for kickstarter creators to just pull the plug on projects without any consequences. I genuinely think that the risk of a class-action lawsuit if the project isn't delivered would cut down on the majority of these idiots thinking they're capable of shipping games, and leave kickstarter to people who are serious about their projects and capable of delivering them.
People, please stop throwing your money away on projects that seem too good to be true.
I'm sorry, but expecting one man to effectively manage an entire project of this scope, with this much disposable income, without any prior games shipped is just a recipe for losing your money. I am 99.999999% certain that the game will be in perpetual limbo for years and will eventually be cancelled with yet another kickstarter creator sob-story about mismanagement of funds and how life has been cruel/someone else is to blame for the failure etc etc...
Kickstarter campaigns are far too open to abuse and I refuse to back any of them now, unless I am certain that what is offered will be delivered. It's far too easy for kickstarter creators to just pull the plug on projects without any consequences. I genuinely think that the risk of a class-action lawsuit if the project isn't delivered would cut down on the majority of these idiots thinking they're capable of shipping games, and leave kickstarter to people who are serious about their projects and capable of delivering them.
People, please stop throwing your money away on projects that seem too good to be true.
I've heard a number of people make this assertion--almost all people who say they have never pledged a dollar towards a crowdfunding project--and I have no idea why people believe it to be true. There have already been more than enough successful projects to validate Kickstarter as a way to get games funded that can't be through traditional channels. Why would a single failure, however high-profile, stop it dead in its tracks? People who reason the way you do don't pledge money in the first place, and that's perfectly fine, but that's simply not the mindset of anyone who is contributing to Kickstarter. Plus, we're talking about videogames here--I hope nobody is pledging any money they can't afford to lose
Maybe it's bad, but because KS, we have some excellent game like Banner Saga or FTL and more will come later like Wasteland 2, Pillar of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera. I agree though with what your said that people who want to back a project should think critically before they give a pledge. Don't hype, it clouded your mind to think of what you do with your money. It's necessary to approach KS project with scepticism.
Stories like these underline my problem with Kickstarter. On the one hand, I have a hard time backing a game (or project) by a team that shouldn't have to resort to Kickstarter for it to be funded. As much as I love Broken Age, I'm sure it could've easily been made without my money up front. It's not a bad investement at all, but I feel it goes against the principles of crowd funding.
On the other hand, horror stories like this one make me very weary to back any unproven developers, just because there's no knowing what the end product will be.
On the other hand, horror stories like this one make me very weary to back any unproven developers, just because there's no knowing what the end product will be.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
This..is a really interesting thread. So I read the op, went to the kickstarter page, googled the guy, and in about 5 minutes of reading knew that there is no way any person could possibly have confidence in this project. This guy's highest education is a community college, his work experience is nothing, and his initial funding amount was $60k. For an entire game. How could anyone ever fund this? Because he put a few cute anime pics on the page?
The most interesting thing for me is the theme song he contracted from a fairly unknown youtube artist it seems. She does freelance composing and it seems he paid at the minimum about $800 for the theme song for the game, most likely more if she did indeed use a recording studio. Super smart investment considering he flipped that into 200k lol.
Op, you got no one but yourself to blame.
The most interesting thing for me is the theme song he contracted from a fairly unknown youtube artist it seems. She does freelance composing and it seems he paid at the minimum about $800 for the theme song for the game, most likely more if she did indeed use a recording studio. Super smart investment considering he flipped that into 200k lol.
Op, you got no one but yourself to blame.
Elessartelrunya
Member
It's funny that the terms "donation", "investment", and "pre-order" have been used frequently in this thread. My stance is that the project has changed from what was originally proposed and I'd like my money back. Simple as that.
What I don't recall is seeing any disclaimers that the art wasn't final. If I had known that I wouldn't have backed.
If you compare the left (original), and right (my attempt), I tried to tone down the cleavage actually...
Sounds about right. And yes, the "News" section was visible for guests up until sometime last night. Very professional. Obviously he's seeing this and still isn't responding to my e-mails.
If I had seen this disclaimer, I likely wouldn't have backed it. That's all hindsight/in the past. What really irks me is the "major" changes that are coming and the reduction in scope. He clearly cannot manage money or this project properly.
Agreed.
Yeah, it's clear at this point that he's let his ego get to him and has completely screwed up. I'm not holding my breathe on that refund
Fattony12000
Member
This is why you should only back intelligent, happy, experienced, sexy, honest and good people. Like Brad Mu-hahaha sorry, sorry I just couldn't keep a straight face on that one.
nah im just messin wid u B-Dawg love u n wot u guise r doin Big M-izzle
nah im just messin wid u B-Dawg love u n wot u guise r doin Big M-izzle
Massive Chalice by Fattony12000 (September/October 2014)
Registering my strong interest in talking about Brad Muir in an official capacity. Oh, and this "Big Cup" game too, I guess.
I am pretty sure that if Tim Schafer could make point and click 2D adventure games without Kickstarter whenever he wanted, he would have made one sometime within the last 20 years. I mean, I get what you're saying, and I've seen the sentiment expressed elsewhere, but independent game studios like Double Fine generally don't have millions of unallocated dollars lying around. Or look at a project like Kingdom Come: Deliverance--much more traditional and less risky--which unsuccessfully shopped around for a publisher for over a year.
NO NO NO and NO. Tim Schafer went to the publishers and they wouldn't let him make an adventure game. Even with the three million kickstarter, they still had to seek outside money and do an alpha release on steam for more funds to complete the project. Games are expensive. This is the result of a lot of people working long hours that never would have had the chance without kickstarter. You're flat out wrong.
A roulette wheel is perhaps a slightly unfair comparison - That's (presumably!) random, whereas judgement can help you get a feel for how realistic a KS project is - but it's true that you should think of it in the context of risk.
Any creative venture of this nature does require someone to take on risk, and the real advantage of Kickstarter is it allows that risk to be spread in small manageable portions among a large number of people, so no individual person is taking on a dangerous amount of risk.
...but ultimately, it's still a risk, and absolutely should be viewed in that frame of mind. Which isn't, I must stress, to imply that that means you don't have a right to voice concerns and request a refund; of course you do.
It's funny that the terms "donation", "investment", and "pre-order" have been used frequently in this thread. My stance is that the project has changed from what was originally proposed and I'd like my money back. Simple as that.
What I don't recall is seeing any disclaimers that the art wasn't final. If I had known that I wouldn't have backed.
If you compare the left (original), and right (my attempt), I tried to tone down the cleavage actually...
Sounds about right. And yes, the "News" section was visible for guests up until sometime last night. Very professional. Obviously he's seeing this and still isn't responding to my e-mails.
If I had seen this disclaimer, I likely wouldn't have backed it. That's all hindsight/in the past. What really irks me is the "major" changes that are coming and the reduction in scope. He clearly cannot manage money or this project properly.
Agreed.
Yeah, it's clear at this point that he's let his ego get to him and has completely screwed up. I'm not holding my breathe on that refund
Wait, so did he change the video or something? Because it clearly states at the start that these are all placeholder assets. Agree that he doesn't seem to be handling the project very well, the redesigns were completely unnecessary and I have no idea how you can justify hiding the dev diaries from the people who are funding the development of your game.
Elessartelrunya
Member
All I saw on the main KS page was under the FAQ and it said:
I took that as, well...enhancements, not complete redesigns. BUT, these redesigns have been happening for months. If there was a "point" to this thread, it would be this;
I sat through change after change. I accepted that the redesigns happened and there was nothing I could do about it. What changed my mind was when he announced on Sunday (?) that major changes were coming and that the scope of the project would going to be reduced.
It was at this point that I said, almost verbatim "I'll wait patiently to see what this "new path" is, but worst case, I'll have to ask for a refund."
It was at this point that he started claiming I was being passive aggressive and that I should be more respectful., From there we saw the dev diaries locked, my posts deleted, and after that, I posted back that I wanted a refund immediately and he deleted that post and banned me. It's one thing to completely redesign a game (multiple times), it's another to essentially take away content because he can't manage the funds properly.
I think the fact that he is now locking down the forum completely speaks VOLUMES about him and his mishandling of this entire situation.