I seriously doubt an undocked NX can run PS360 games at 1080p 60fps, regardless of what chip they use (at least not if they want more than an hour of battery life). 540p shouldn't be a problem though.
As for the magic dock, we have no idea.
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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture
- Thread starter nhlducks35
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I seriously doubt an undocked NX can run PS360 games at 1080p 60fps, regardless of what chip they use (at least not if they want more than an hour of battery life). 540p shouldn't be a problem though.
As for the magic dock, we have no idea.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
I can't wait to play Monster Hunter on this thing.
Red Gyarados
Neo Member
Im calling it right now! Monster Hunter 5 will definitely be annouced at the NX reveal event!
It would be perfect to get the japanese gamers attention
Skittzo0413
Member
We're hearing estimated GFlop values of between 300 and 500 nVidia GFlops for a Pascal variant of the Tegra X1 at a portable clockspeed, drawing under 2W. This puts the portable power level way over PS3 and 360, and the CPU is similarly greatly improved (potentially/likely improved over PS4 and XB1 too) such that 1080p/60fps Wii U/PS3/360 ports should easily be doable at that level of power consumption.
At 540p (again we don't know for sure, but it seems like the likeliest screen resolution) we likely get into PS4/XB1 visual fidelity. Mobile tech has improved greatly over the last few years, more than a lot of people here seemed to have noticed.
Yes, that should be possible in handheld mode. In fact it is already possible on devices that use Tegra X1 today. DOOM 3 BFG Edition runs at 1080p with a locked 60fps on Android tablets while it ran at 720p on PS3/360. That's with all the compromises that have to be made for the operating system. It's not theory. It is reality.
If the Tegra in the NX really does use Pascal, then they can achieve that kind of performance with even less power and heat; they can also choose to go with more power if they so desire.
Argue about it as console and the dock and whatever, but this will be a handheld like the industry has never seen before. Bleeding edge technology.
plank
Member
Whats this now?
James Scott
Banned
I wonder if they'll settle for $50. An in between for their console and portable prices though it still seems kind of high and kind of low so I'm not sure
chrisPjelly
Member
If they're going for the same budget and fidelity of high end WiiU games, I don't see why not. Hopefully they'll play it smarter and also release more AA products at lower prices around $30 or $40
External GPU? That's not happening.
You think visuals and framerate won't take a hit when you have to shade and rasterize 80% more pixels? lol
LizardKing
Member
This has been quite a few pages of speculation of what the appropriate ppi should be and thus the resolution without a clue of what the screen size will be. Everyone is assuming 5-6 inches but I don't think that's a safe assumption by any means. I really wouldn't be surprised to see a 7-8 inch mini tablet like screen. For a large amount of people screen size and fidelity are a much bigger factor than graphics tech especially with nearly everyone owning large screen and high resolution portable devices. A screen that is more blurry or requires squinting would be viewed as inferior.
I swear, the thought alone makes me go from zero to midnight in a heartbeat
Angry Chair
Member
It's not worth arguing. For some reason, he values resolution over everything more important.
Bitanator
Member
They could very well be two screen types, I think a five-six inch screen is the sweet spot, I have a five inch 540p phone right now and it looks all right to me, gaming on it is fine resolution wise.
Really Pascal and Parker mean little without knowing more of what the NX itself is.
If NX is a Handheld with a basic plastic dock like 3DS then a Parker chip is being used likely solely for the power savings it offers.
If the Dock has more to it such as allowing the Handheld to unlock full power etc. then Parker can certainly allow them to push a lot more power out of it. A Parker Chip clocked similarly to X1 would put out around 200 gflops of extra gpu power for the same power consumption. A normally clocked Parker would be even more powerful.
Of course we also have to see what happens with parker. The Parker we know is what Nvidia had on a slide in the past. Parker in reality could be totally different.
If NX is a Handheld with a basic plastic dock like 3DS then a Parker chip is being used likely solely for the power savings it offers.
If the Dock has more to it such as allowing the Handheld to unlock full power etc. then Parker can certainly allow them to push a lot more power out of it. A Parker Chip clocked similarly to X1 would put out around 200 gflops of extra gpu power for the same power consumption. A normally clocked Parker would be even more powerful.
Of course we also have to see what happens with parker. The Parker we know is what Nvidia had on a slide in the past. Parker in reality could be totally different.
I think your selling Tegra and Nintendo's idea short to expect "Vita+". Vita is most ways, similar to 6th gen consoles including GPU power, outside of advanced 7th gen unfied shading capabilities.
If NX's full goal is to be a combination of Nintendo's console markets and handheld markets, this thing is going to be 7th gen level by default, i expect 500~Nvidia gflops in the end for this thing, which is closer to say 700 AMD GCN gflops, that's actually right in between Wii U and XB1, nothing to sneeze at for a machine that runs on only a small percentage of the same power draw
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I probably should have clarified that all of that post was my thoughts if I don't consider any of the information of Eurogamer's report. Basically, my original minimum expectations from Nintendo, after 3DS and Wii U, for what the mysterious NX (handheld, console, or hybrid) would be. If the Eurogamer report is true (and I mean, it probably is, given all the other websites that corroborated it), of course I'd have different expectations for the console and the Tegra X1 or X2. That chip would greatly exceed my original portable expectations and maybe match my home console expectations.
What I wrote is what I was expecting from Nintendo as a minimum from NX, and I generally try to keep low expectations so I'm not disappointed (since it is Nintendo and tech, after all). Thankfully, the recent reports seem to say Nintendo will absolutely meet those expectations.
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Since I've getting responses to my expectations with all kinds of interpretations (from various people), let me make one final statement that hopefully clarifies things:
kirbyfan407's original expectations (what I hope for at a minimum for me to be satisfied) for Nintendo's next hardware (circa when NX was first announced and entirely unknown):
Handheld: Vita+
Console: Ability to run 720/30 Wii U games at 1080/60 (if a Wii U game like XCX were ported)
With the rumored use of a custom X1 or X2, it sounds like my original minimum expectations will be mostly met in the form of a hybrid. We'll see how it's all ultimately executed, but I'm excited.
LizardKing
Member
Right I agree 540p at 5 inches is fine but if it's a 7-8 inch screen that's probably not going to cut it. We will find out soon enough.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Look I've argued my points several times but nobody seems to get it. Every modern consumer electronic with a screen has a resolution of 720p+ and every modern chipset is made to push those resolutions even in gaming. The Nvidia Shield from three years ago had a 720p display and it ran games like pretty darn well. It's also severely ridiculous to think that reducing the pixel count is actually going to give you this magic boost in everything. It's not. If the NX comes out with a low resolution display it will be criticized. No 540p display looks good today, not even the Playstation Vita which came out during a time when HD mobile displays weren't that practical, and the trade off isn't going to be visuals on par with GTA V with extra long battery life. The difference isn't that much and the sharper image from holding a screen 6-12 inches from your face will make it much worthwhile. But sure go ahead and say that resolution is meaningless on mobile devices.
GhostTrick
Banned
No, you didn't. You even skipped my messages with benchmarks. All your points are wrong because you believe that phone games are running at native resolution. It's not because your phone has a 1440p or even 720p screen that games runs at the same resolution.
Case in point: Trine 2 runs only at 720p on Tegra K1.
So as we continue to discuss the ever secretive specs of the upcoming NX, it makes you think back on all of the little bits of information that's been dropped in different threads over time here. I can't help but think back to something a developer was quoted saying concerning the NX devkit. By mentioning that a current PS4/XbOne port they were working with was up and running fairly easy on NX with no issues.
Pairing this with what we currently know, leads one to believe that in whatever final form the NX sounds more than capable of handling current generation games. Of course we don't know whether this was an indie title or AAA game, but seeing as how only major publishers have been talking openly about NX projects planned. It would lead you to believe it was a AAA product being ported.
Pairing this with what we currently know, leads one to believe that in whatever final form the NX sounds more than capable of handling current generation games. Of course we don't know whether this was an indie title or AAA game, but seeing as how only major publishers have been talking openly about NX projects planned. It would lead you to believe it was a AAA product being ported.
But it makes little sense. On a device that's 6", 540 would be more than adequate for gaming and it would also:
1) Scale better to 1080 than 720
2) Use less power
3) Cost less
4) Use less resources and therefore allow better looking graphics
I just can't see, assuming they need to keep things balanced and costs down, why they'd want to go with 720 in the handheld.....unless they were going to say that 720 across the board was fine which even I don't think Nintendo are that stupid......probably.
You are mixing something up here. If, as the high-end speculations assume, the portable mode of X1 is 2-3 times as powerful (GPU wise) as Wii U, then that would not be remotely enough to run PS360 games at 1080p60 in the general case.
Most PS360 games were 720p30 (or lower than that). The factor (in pixels per second) going from that to 1080p60 is 4.5, not 2 or even 3.
Otakumegane
Member
Why are we assuming that we will be getting 300 to 500gflops out of the handheld variant, I thought when in portable mode it was going to be underclocked. Isn't 500 what we expect docked?
Basically what I'm asking is, let's say that we are getting maybe a slightly bigger battery than the Vita offering, and the power draw is scaled to that. With that power draw, assuming just using a stock X1, how much Gflops do we get out of it?
Vita's default battery is 2200mAh btw.
Basically what I'm asking is, let's say that we are getting maybe a slightly bigger battery than the Vita offering, and the power draw is scaled to that. With that power draw, assuming just using a stock X1, how much Gflops do we get out of it?
Vita's default battery is 2200mAh btw.
Shogmaster
Member
All you kids are high as a kite with the power estimations. Near XBox One? Way over X360/PS3? I would greatly adjust your expectations.
I think it's a big mistake to use the maximum performance of nVidia X1 used in devkits to be made as the baseline for the power of shipping NX. Going to Pascal from Maxwell doesn't necessarily mean the power will be increased from X1. All it means is that the NX is using more efficient and newer architecture.
In all likelihood, Nintendo will aim for $200 range for the NX. This will limit the size of the battery (~3000mAH would be best you'd expect), quality of the screen, the size of the heatsink/cooling, and most importantly, the size of the SOC. X1 is pretty damn big for ARM CPU due to 256 Maxwell GPU cores. It's not a cool and power sipping SOC by ARM standards. The X1 in the Shield set top box is putting out 10~20W during gaming. That's way past cell phone and tablet territory. That's more power hungry than Core i5 in Surface Pro 4 (15W).
Also is unavoidable fact that the thing is a portable first and foremost, and that will be the baseline for the power envelope for gameplay. Docked mode really doesn't matter unless Nintendo forces all the games to have two distinct performance and thus gameplay modes. That's extra work that devs will not want. All you'll get is resolution bump when docked most likely.
[bold prediction] I suspect that move to Pascal isn't to increase the power from X1's maxwell cores, but rather to improve the efficiency for battery savings. You can do more with less with a newer architecture. This IMO means you will see DECREASE in core count from X1 to whatever will be used in NX. I can see Nintendo commissioning nVidia to make them a SOC with only two Denver 2 CPU cores and 128 Pascal GPU cores. I can maybe see dual Denver 2 + single or dual A53 core for some background operations, but you will not see Hexacore ARM config like X2, and you certainly won't see 256+ Pascal GPU cores. I also expect the clockspeeds in mobile mode to significantly reduced from X1 and X2, as much as 50% reduction perhaps. [/bold prediction]
This will still be a GIGNATIC leap from 3DS and should bring Wii U like performance in a mobile package, and that IMO is a marvel in itself anyways. IMO, you will see nearly identical looking looking Zelda: Breath of Wind on NX and the Wii U.
I think it's a big mistake to use the maximum performance of nVidia X1 used in devkits to be made as the baseline for the power of shipping NX. Going to Pascal from Maxwell doesn't necessarily mean the power will be increased from X1. All it means is that the NX is using more efficient and newer architecture.
In all likelihood, Nintendo will aim for $200 range for the NX. This will limit the size of the battery (~3000mAH would be best you'd expect), quality of the screen, the size of the heatsink/cooling, and most importantly, the size of the SOC. X1 is pretty damn big for ARM CPU due to 256 Maxwell GPU cores. It's not a cool and power sipping SOC by ARM standards. The X1 in the Shield set top box is putting out 10~20W during gaming. That's way past cell phone and tablet territory. That's more power hungry than Core i5 in Surface Pro 4 (15W).
Also is unavoidable fact that the thing is a portable first and foremost, and that will be the baseline for the power envelope for gameplay. Docked mode really doesn't matter unless Nintendo forces all the games to have two distinct performance and thus gameplay modes. That's extra work that devs will not want. All you'll get is resolution bump when docked most likely.
[bold prediction] I suspect that move to Pascal isn't to increase the power from X1's maxwell cores, but rather to improve the efficiency for battery savings. You can do more with less with a newer architecture. This IMO means you will see DECREASE in core count from X1 to whatever will be used in NX. I can see Nintendo commissioning nVidia to make them a SOC with only two Denver 2 CPU cores and 128 Pascal GPU cores. I can maybe see dual Denver 2 + single or dual A53 core for some background operations, but you will not see Hexacore ARM config like X2, and you certainly won't see 256+ Pascal GPU cores. I also expect the clockspeeds in mobile mode to significantly reduced from X1 and X2, as much as 50% reduction perhaps. [/bold prediction]
This will still be a GIGNATIC leap from 3DS and should bring Wii U like performance in a mobile package, and that IMO is a marvel in itself anyways. IMO, you will see nearly identical looking looking Zelda: Breath of Wind on NX and the Wii U.
Depends on who you ask. But someone in the other NX thread had it conservatively in the 800Gflps range while docked
EDIT: if anyone knows how to quote from another thread let me know. It was a really detailed post. and I'll try and find it.
The basic tenant was that the NX would be clocked between 1500-1600Mhz while docked and then run at 1/4 that as a handheld in order to scale the resolutions between 1080p (docked) and 540p (portable) so as a portable it would be in the 200Gflop range.
Edit 2. The origional post from the NX tech analysis thread
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1253181&page=28
Regarding the screen discussion, I'd also prefer a high-quality 540p (or 720p at most) screen to a 1080p screen for a dedicated 5" handheld gaming device.
My realistic expectation is that what we'll get is a low-quality 540p screen.
My realistic expectation is that what we'll get is a low-quality 540p screen.
That's a lot of things, but conservative isn't one of them.
Terbinator
Member
I'm not entirely sure how it works when Nvidia scale their arch between mobile ARM offerings and their typical GPUs, but it seems odd to me that people would suggest a downclocked Pascal as the option when the high-frequency is typically where it's grunt is coming from on the desktop side.
Shogmaster
Member
LOL. 800 GFLOPS docked..... You guys kill me.
Try more like 150 GFLOPS on battery and 300 GFLOPS docked. It's will have reduced GPU core count and reduced clock speeds from X1. Mark my words.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I'm excited to see what Nintendo will be able to do now that it won't be shackled by resistive touch screen controls anymore (speculation based on the rumors that NX will be compatible with Nintendo's mobile software in some capacity).
Otakumegane
Member
One thing that confused me about the eurogamer article. Aren't dev kits supposed to be stronger than the stock? Is it different with early devkits?
Lupin the Third
Member
Indeed, it could be that the active cooling and overclocking rumored to be in the current kits is just to keep it where it will be when the proper chip is available, not a struggle to barely inch closer to some mind-blowing, way better processor coming down the pike. It's probably just the most practical placeholder for the final chipset they could rig up. Nintendo might be getting a good deal on X1 or even Tegra X2s, but even if they do, their clocks will be sacrificed such that (at least as a standalone portable) they will have decent battery life, which will mean probably no 720p native games or at least not ones with HARDKOR XBOX ONE-LEVUL GRAFIXX!
Now, this doesn't mean that the dock won't serve as a supplementary computing device. And if it does, that might be even more incentive for Nintendo to double-down on lesser horsepower on the go, since you can still get your "bigger and better" fix at home on the big screen with the same device.
It wasn't my post, but it was detailed enough to be convincing ( though I'm not convinced.) that posters upper estimate was roughly 1.2Tflps and on par with the PS4. While docked and around 300tflps when portable. Ultimately this is going to come down to how good of a deal NVidia gave Nintendo on the chips in the NX, and what price point Nintendo will aim for.
Edit: Shogmaster. In order to scale between 720p and 1080p resolutions. The power would have to scale in a 2.25 integer. Which would put it at 337GFlops if it ran at 150Gflps as a portable
X2 will likely be revealed toward the end of August, after which we will have a better picture of the NX (assuming it is indeed using a Pascal Tegra). Until then, everything is pure hypotheticals.
We can assume X2 will be faster than X1. That part is clear. We know the power draw improvements from Maxwell to Pascal. But do we know whether Nintendo will choose to go with a stock X2 or a custom chip? How would said custom chip stack up against a stock X2? We will see in due time.
fabricated backlash
Member
Yeah pretty much this. As a Handheld this already Sounds like an absolute beast, but it will be nowhere near xbone performance. Thats just patently ridiculous.
I still maintain that there will be a stationary console as well. Maybe not at launch, but later on.
John Petrucci
Member
Man I hope some fastidious person is actually marking everyone's words that are requesting to have their words marked. That's quickly becoming a crowded group, and things could get confusing when it's time to give out medals.
At any rate this is all a ton of fun. Thanks everyone for your input. I don't think I've ever been this interested in an upcoming console.
At any rate this is all a ton of fun. Thanks everyone for your input. I don't think I've ever been this interested in an upcoming console.
fabricated backlash
Member
We're back in full on WUST mode
If that is the case, then it makes even more sense to go with a 540p display if it means potentially reusing PS4/XB1 assets and getting ports of current gen games. PS360 level is ok for new development and great for a handheld, but doesn't help with third party support. You want middleware support like UE4 and capability to support xb1 level games (with some tweaks if necessary) - you want to be able to integrate into existing tools and workflows
John Petrucci
Member
Is WUST talking about former Wii U tech hype threads that ended up being full of it and letting everyone down?
Only gonna get more WUST as time goes on and there is no official info. Cmon, we know how this game plays out.
fabricated backlash
Member
Yep. Same shit here, all these fantastical theoretically Chips that could be, should be.... it's downright scary how similar it is to those threads.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
yep, now we NXST
Dark Cloud
Member
I'm not seeing it. I followed that topic from beginning to end and we had Ideaman with is "insider sources" which was irritating at hell with no actual real sources, but the NX has been more substantial with Eurogamers rumor.
I really don't think this thread is like the WUST thread. I do the same thing in this thread that I did back in that thread (try to post about what I'd consider realistic hardware wise -- when I still bothered to), and so far there hasn't been an angry mob jumping at any of my posts in this thread.
That's a great question and I would like to know that too
If I remember right than the Development Kits where overclocked compared to the GPU's build in the final hardware, but I'm not exactly sure Oh well done. It's an even better acronym because it looks like "No Existence."
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