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[Machina]

The U.S. is leading the world in childhood poverty, unemployment, corruption within the political and criminal justice systems, mass shootings, debt, and academic failure.


And this is what feminists are talking about? The fact that there aren't as many female characters in video games, as there are males?

I don't think Anita should be given a say on what goes into video games. She's probably only interested in "I'm Fat and I have Daddy Issues Simulator version 3.66"

 

[NewDust]

It strange Anita lumped in Death Stranding in the male category, while saying in the article there are no non-binary characters (to choose from, I know, but hear me out). First of all, we suspect we play as Norman Feetus, but we don't know... Secondly, and more important, didn't the character have a baby with attached with an ubillical cord and C-section? Seems pretty non-binary to me. Maybe the character is a (biological) woman, that chooses to live as male.

Anyways, this is just an argument for arguments sake. I don't think we can trust Kojima with such storytelling. And I also think she has a point that there still aren't enough non-sexualized female MC's. But I do applaud that in over half of the games shown on stage we can choose gender or are non-gender specific.

 

[A-V-B]

It strange Anita lumped in Death Stranding in the male category, while saying in the article there are no non-binary characters (to choose from, I know, but hear me out). First of all, we suspect we play as Norman Feetus, but we don't know... Secondly, and more important, didn't the character have a baby with attached with an ubillical cord and C-section? Seems pretty non-binary to me.

That trailer was so wild and wonderfully fucked up I don't even know if we can take that on faith lol

 

[TatteredHat]

In reality 52% of games shown at E3 featured female protagonists, if you don't want to count games where you can pick your gender that's on you. While there are obviously more male-exclusive protagonists around I strongly disagree with the notion that the industry is still perpetuating the whole "only men can be heroes".

I'm glad that the industry is not taking such a spreadsheet approach towards protagonist gender balance.

 

[truestatic]

Detroit? Bound? Mass Effect? Just for starters.

Are you saying those are games starring female protags? Because in the OP, it said that it was discluding games that feature both.

I'm curious if they threw Detroit into the 'male' category though, due to its focus at the presser on Conner.

 

[Raiden]

Its funny that they probably still do this to attract the major male demographic of gamers while half of us nerds prefers to play as a female.


Not me tho, im cool.

 

[Devilgunman]

50% of the world are women, 3% of games at E3 had female leads and you can't see whats wrong with it?

60% of world population are Asian, none of the game at E3 has an Asian protagonist. Where is the equality?

 

[DanielJr82]

Thread title is a little misleading. 3% had exclusively female protagonists, so games like Mass Effect and Dishonored don't count towards that.

Altogether, 52% of games had playable female characters, apparently.

Yes, although remember news outlets love controversy, they're going to force down that 3% down your throat, never mind that we're having more female participation in video games than ever before.

 

[A-V-B]

Its funny that they probably still do this to attract the major male demographic of gamers while half of us nerds prefers to play as a female.


Not me tho, im cool.

Last sentence + avatar has got me crackin up

 

[Spring Drive]

The U.S. is leading the world in childhood poverty, unemployment, corruption within the political and criminal justice systems, mass shootings, debt, and academic failure.


And this is what feminists are talking about? The fact that there aren't as many female characters in video games, as there are males?

I don't think Anita should be given a say on what goes into video games. She's probably only interested in "I'm Fat and I have Daddy Issues Simulator version 3.66"

Anita Sarkeesian is Canadian

 

[Mohonky]

Definitely. But it's also good to have someone pointing things out from time to time, right? I don't think there's a call to make it law for 50 percent female protags or something, but it's good to have awareness about such things, maybe get some more games with female leads if there's a bigger realized demand for equal showing. At least that's one way to see it.

Not quite that simple anyway, one of the tropes she regularly mentions is men simply being reskinned to be female; that the character is no different from what would otherwise be a male protagonist and lacks feminine qualities or approach.

Doubtful a game like the shooter Doom would be done with a female protagonist, or that a female would be a leading role in a Call of Duty and even if they were, they would fail that 'male reskinned to female' critique.

Given how popular violent titles like shooters are, you probably aren't going to get a 50/50 split without stepping on some other tropes.

 

[mephel]

if you are a company and you have specific targeted demography in mind, why is it wrong to pander to them? you are in it to make money, if it makes you more money then you should do it

if you are an artist and you make this little game and female MC is not in your vision, why should you be forced to make one?

there are also other reasons why we don't have (and will not have) 50:50 representation, would it make sense to have female lead in a realistic shooter game, when almost all members of the special forces in real life are male? It would just feel tacked on and unreal

i don't know, i guess i just don't see the issue as something "big"

 

[TheTux]

Saved this gif for the future lol

 

[A-V-B]

Not quite that simple anyway, one of the tropes she regularly mentions is men simply being reskinned to be female; that the character is no different from what would otherwise be a male protagonist and lacks feminine qualities or approach.

Doubtful a game like the shooter Doom would be done with a female protagonist

Yeah, probably not. Would've been interesting, though. I mean, a woman was probably the original invader of the underworld in stories. Inanna and Ereshkigal and all that.

 

[Linkyn]

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game. I prefer something natural as opposed to some contrivance meant to appeal to a vocal community. Just my opinion. If your game was made in mind with having a minority/female/transexual lead great, if it wasn't, don't alter your vision for the sake winning press or the respect of gamers.

That's all fair, but the vast majority of games work regardless of the main character's gender, ethnicity, etc. That's the whole point of this argument, that having eg a woman protagonist shouldn't really change anything other than that character's gender in most situations.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

the amount of deflection in this thread is incredible. It's not about forcing creators to do anything, it's about showing a gender discrepancy.
Do with that info what you will but most of what I see is just thinly veiled disdain.

Even if 52% is a good number compared to 90% for men it's not.

 

[cdnalsi]

Definitely. But it's also good to have someone pointing things out from time to time, right? I don't think there's a call to make it law for 50 percent female protags or something, but it's good to have awareness about such things, maybe get some more games with female leads if there's a bigger realized demand for equal showing. At least that's one way to see it.

I'm a male but I like to play female characters, be someone else rather than myself. But I don't really get why awareness needs to be raised in such a matter, let a lone call for a law. It's an entertainment product built by a private company; run by private citizens who have all the rights to choose which gender they want to use as their character. I don't see it as my place as a game enthusiast to start dictating what genders the gaming producers should use - as much as I should start telling NASA what kind of insulation to use for re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere...

 

[Kinyou]

Painting games that let you choose genders as basically not good enough sounds dumb to me.

Those games also go against the notion they criticize

"This massive discrepancy means that for now, games continue to reinforce the deeply entrenched cultural notion that heroes are male by default.

 

[Nere]

This article is pretty misleading when 49% percent of the games can be played with either gender and it isn't mentioned. So Dishonored 2 and Mass effect don't count just because you can play as a guy? even though the female is the main marketing gender. Really bad article, why not say the whole truth?

The article's title is even "Only three percent of games shown at E3 keynotes featured female protagonists " while on the first line they describe it much better as " Of 59 new video games showcased at this year's E3, only three percent featured exclusively female protagonists ". As I said clickbait title on an article which wants to cause controversy by not showing upfront the whole truth.

 

[Forkball]

The U.S. is leading the world in childhood poverty, unemployment, corruption within the political and criminal justice systems, mass shootings, debt, and academic failure.


And this is what feminists are talking about? The fact that there aren't as many female characters in video games, as there are males?

I don't think Anita should be given a say on what goes into video games. She's probably only interested in "I'm Fat and I have Daddy Issues Simulator version 3.66"

Your fourth post ever on this site and it's this? Talk about tripping out of the starting gate.

 

[Shredderi]

So the real number of games where you can play as a female is 52%. That's a lot better than I thought.

 

[truestatic]

This article is pretty misleading when 49% percent of the games can be played with either gender and it isn't mentioned. So Dishonored 2 and Mass effect don't count just because you can play as a guy? even though the female is the main marketing gender. Really bad article, why not say the whole truth?

A majority of the remaining titles, both this year and last, let players choose either gender while playing or the gender of the character is unspecified.

They mentioned it.

 

[Fliesen]

it always baffles me how worked up some people get about other people just doing some counting.

3% of games had exclusively female protagonists.

this is the distribution.
And before anyone offers up fallacies like "so Sarkeesian wants no playable games? or just games where you can pick your gender?" - no. Because more often than not, the protagonists gender is connected to the narrative.

would be the preferred distribution.

Painting games that let you choose genders as basically not good enough sounds dumb to me.

Those games also go against the notion they criticize

well, the issue is: Nathan Drake is a well established character. Uncharted tells the Story of Nathan Drake. Same goes for Kratos, Joel, etc.
"female avatar from Dark Souls" is not a character.

An exclusively female character means that the narrative of the game is a woman's story. and not just one of a genderless player character.

 

[Oxirane]

There's a lot of fixating going on about single numbers in this thread. There are pie charts if people want to look.

Although I think the Verge article (and headline and subhead) add to the confusion by not being explicit when talking about exclusive protagonist gender or games containing protagonists of a specific gender.

2016

2015

As an aside, one thing I would like to see is info on the gender ratios for game main antagonists as well as cannon fodder enemies.

 

[redcrayon]

So what if there are more male heroes in video games? Isn't it supposed to be a free world? If a private company / developer chooses to use either gender, that's their business, isn't it?

Absolutely, devs should be free to choose what they want. The issue is when the vast majority of games released by major publishers choose male leads, which leads to an unfortunate trend even if no individual game is really the issue. Encouraging developers to even just consider female (or any other minority) leads rather than subconciously starting at 'grumpy white guy!' is the answer, and while this flood of 'pick your gender' games isn't the same as having defined female leads as the face of a game, it's certainly progress.

 

[A-V-B]

I'm a male but I like to play female characters, be someone else rather than myself. But I don't really get why awareness needs to be raised in such a matter, let a lone call for a law.

I never said people were...?

 

[Hoo-doo]

I just know my Mass Effect loving friend is going to choose male Ryder.

Who cares? So am I.

I started the ME franchise with stock commander shepard and never cared about the customization options. That character is Mass Effect to me and I prefer to continue the series with the same character.

The fact that you can choose gender is awesome and necessary, but it doesn't make choosing the male character a bad thing all of a sudden.

 

[michaelius]

So in other words majority of games gave player free choice of what he/she wants to play.

 

[Eumi]

Not quite that simple anyway, one of the tropes she regularly mentions is men simply being reskinned to be female; that the character is no different from what would otherwise be a male protagonist and lacks feminine qualities or approach.

Doubtful a game like the shooter Doom would be done with a female protagonist, or that a female would be a leading role in a Call of Duty and even if they were, they would fail that 'male reskinned to female' critique.

Given how popular violent titles like shooters are, you probably aren't going to get a 50/50 split without stepping on some other tropes.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but can I just say I hate the idea that you can't just make a male protagonist female.

Because why not? The first time I ever heard of it was when an English teacher told me Riply from Alien isn't a good female protagonist because she's manly and I disagree with that so much it probably colours my perspective but the idea that people will turn around and say that a female protags isn't female enough for them just kind of irritates me.

I do love a lot of games for having female protags where them being female is an ongoing thing and the story could not be told just by replacing pronouns, but yelling about 'reskinning' just comes way too close to telling women what they can and can't be to me.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

Are you saying those are games starring female protags? Because in the OP, it said that it was discluding games that feature both.

I'm curious if they threw Detroit into the 'male' category though, due to its focus at the presser on Conner.

The first protagonist we saw for Detroit, and the character featured on the box art, is female. Bound's sole character is female. Fe-Shep is both the only protagonist we saw in the trailer and presumably the cannon protag.

 

[truestatic]

it always baffles me how worked up some people get about other people just doing some counting.

They aren't just worked up about counting, though, are they. These are not idle statistics, they have meaning. It's the message, implicit or explicit, that games need to change to be more inclusive that bothers them, not the counting itself.

 

[cdnalsi]

I never said people were...?

I was just paraphrasing from when you half-implied it earlier...

 

[Crocodile]

There is a time and a place for "who cares?!" but this isn't one of them. That plus "what about world hunger" or "but but marketing demographics", etc. are often good for a hearty chuckle

Anyway on to the meat of the article, I don't think its entirely unfair to ask about and talk about games with exclusively female leads but trying to downplay (might not be the right word but I feel I'd lead with the 52% stat and then discuss the 3% stat and not the other way around and the article headline feels a bit misleading) the significant number of games, and it looks like its been on the rise to me over the years, that let you choose your gender (which often includes games that have a woman as the default/lead) feels like cherry-picking or poll skewing. Also I think counting games that only appear in conferences puts too much emphasis on them - there are plenty of games that get a lot of attention and the spotlight that aren't in the conferences. I think you can make anything sound disastrous or embarrassing if you subsection your data hard enough. Not saying things could be better in this particular regard but give a bit more credit where credit is due?

 

[Biltmore]

the amount of deflection in this thread is incredible. It's not about forcing creators to do anything, it's about showing a gender discrepancy.
Do with that info what you will but most of what I see is just thinly veiled disdain.

Even if 52% is a good number compared to 90% for men it's not.

So then just say 52% instead of fudging the facts to make things look even worse. It's absurd to disqualify games like ME or Dishonored 2 because they also have males. All the marketing is female.

 

[Uzzy]

This article is pretty misleading when 49% percent of the games can be played with either gender and it isn't mentioned. So Dishonored 2 and Mass effect don't count just because you can play as a guy? even though the female is the main marketing gender. Really bad article, why not say the whole truth?

The article's title is even "Only three percent of games shown at E3 keynotes featured female protagonists " while on the first line they describe it much better as " Of 59 new video games showcased at this year's E3, only three percent featured exclusively female protagonists ". As I said clickbait title on an article which wants to cause controversy by not showing upfront the whole truth.

Yeah, the article's title is really bad. Anita herself, in her blog post, wrote this, acknowledging the 52%.

We were encouraged to see, however, that the showcase of Dishonored 2 once again focused on the playable female character, Emily, and that in the trailer for Mass Effect: Andromeda, the female version of protagonist Ryder was featured, whereas with the original Mass Effect trilogy, almost all promotional materials used the male version of Shepard. Dishonored 2 and Mass Effect: Andromeda were two of 29 games in which you either choose to play as male or female characters, or in which the gender of your character or characters appears to be unspecified, such as Fe. Of course, the option to choose is welcome. However, a purely binary understanding of gender was once again on display, with no games indicating the ability to choose from a wider range of gender identities and expressions. Furthermore, the fact that a whopping 12 times as many featured games center exclusively male protagonists than exclusively female ones indicates that the video game industry still has an extremely long way to go before approaching anything resembling gender parity.

 

[truestatic]

The first protagonist we saw for Detroit, and the character featured on the box art, is female. Bound's sole character is female. Fe-Shep is both the only protagonist we saw in the trailer and presumably the cannon protag.

Yes, but they're only looking at the number of games featuring exclusively male leads vs the number featuring exclusively female leads, and only looking at those that were featured at a presser conference. I don't think Bound counts either, due to that.

Also, fwiw, Fem-Ryder won't be 'canon' cuz Bioware will tell you there's no such thing. Default, though, sure.

 

[Fliesen]

They aren't just worked up about counting, though, are they. These are not idle statistics, they have meaning. It's the message, implicit or explicit, that games need to change to be more inclusive that bothers them, not the counting itself.

yeah, of course. but, out of the gate, you have people "well they didn't count XYZ, well this is misleading because XYZ" ... of course, in the end, those people don't get worked up because of the numbers, but the pictures they paint.

Interesting postby Oxraine showing that this E3 was actually "worse" than last year's.
Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge came out before E3 2016, i guess.

again: it's not just about "what gendered character can you play" but about it being a man's story or a woman's.
I do believe that a strong, immersive narrative doesn't work as well if your protagonist is customizable - Mass Effect being one of those rare eceptions.

 

[redcrayon]

I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but can I just say I hate the idea that you can't just make a male protagonist female.

Because why not? The first time I ever heard of it was when an English teacher told me Riply from Alien isn't a good female protagonist because she's manly and I disagree with that so much it probably colours my perspective but the idea that people will turn around and say that a female protags isn't female enough for them just kind of irritates me.

I do love a lot of games for having female protags where them being female is an ongoing thing and the story could not be told just by replacing pronouns, butyl long about 'reskinning' just comes way too close to telling women what they can and can't be to me.

I agree, the ' Ripley as manly' idea is a bit odd considering how her primary antagonists are female (with their own 'children'), and how much of it concerns motherhood. Or the facehuggers as threat-of-rape. She's just a great example of a female lead in a horror (Alien) or action (the others) film.

I've often thought that even her relationship with the cat (Jones?) would be depicted differently if she was a bloke. She was an interesting character who cared about her pet, friends and colleagues, even in a terrifying situation, and she starts off with sod-all military/physical training or ability. Empathy, experience and determination make her bad-ass over time. Such awesome films.

If it was a male lead, they'd probably have felt the need to have him running around with guns the whole time.

 

[Allonym]

That's all fair, but the vast majority of games work regardless of the main character's gender, ethnicity, etc. That's the whole point of this argument, that having eg a woman protagonist shouldn't really change anything other than that character's gender in most situations.

I think it's dependent on the narrative. Often times it's easier and more believable to place a male protagonist in a certain situation as opposed to a female one. I think it'd be hard to imagine things like Berserk with a female lead. Casca's great and all but I think a story with her embarking on a quest of vengeance with Guts mind being shattered just seems less plausible. That was just a thoughtless example and I'm sure there are situations where stories can accommodate both sexes and stories that will favor women. DOn't get me wrong, TLOU could've been told from the perspective of Tess or even Marlene and they'd be just as capable but I don't believe the story would have had the same emotional impact that it had with Joel. I think as time goes on we'll see more games with female leads but I also think that hinges upon the success of games with dedicated female leads (not pick your sex games).

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So then just say 52% instead of fudging the facts to make things look even worse. It's absurd to disqualify games like ME or Dishonored 2 because they also have males. All the marketing is female.

The headline is clickbaitey the article actually says

Of 59 new video games showcased at this year's E3, only three percent featured exclusively female protagonists

If you count Mass Effect among those you automatically discount Detroit and others which didn't show the female counterparts in any press conferences.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

Yes, but they're only looking at the number of games featuring exclusively male leads vs the number featuring exclusively female leads, and only looking at those that were featured at a presser conference. I don't think Bound counts either, due to that.

Also, fwiw, Fem-Ryder won't be 'canon' cuz Bioware will tell you there's no such thing. Default, though, sure.

Sure, I guess. While I agree the leads for games are still a bit of a sausage fest, it's easy to pick and chose what to and what not to count regarding only counting conferences and only the conferences you want to count.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wouldn't it be fair to count the games that let you choose your gender, too? Seems kind of odd to count those and "not clearly defined gender" protagonists together with the males. I think gaming has become quite more open over the last years.

Because most games where you can play as a woman, you can also play as a man. On the other side of that, games where you can only play as a man are countless.

 

[Crocodile]

Did Anita do her episode on "Man with Boobs" or however that stereotype/trope goes?

 

[Fliesen]

I think it's dependent on the narrative. Often times it's easier and more believable to place a male protagonist in a certain situation as opposed to a female one. I think it'd be hard to imagine things like Berserk with a female lead. Casca's great and all but I think a story with her embarking on a quest of vengeance with Guts mind being shattered just seems less plausible. That was just a thoughtless example and I'm sure there are situations where stories can accommodate both sexes and stories that will favor women. DOn't get me wrong, TLOU could've been told from the perspective of Tess or even Marlene and they'd be just as capable but I don't believe the story would have had the same emotional impact that it had with Joel. I think as time goes on we'll see more games with female leads but I also think that hinges upon the success of games with dedicated female leads (not pick your sex games).

similarly, i don't think Life is Strange would have been as impactful and / or succesful if the player character hadn't been exclusively female. It's the story of a teenage girl - not a teenage "person."

 

[Applemancer]

As an aside, one thing I would like to see is info on the gender ratios for game main antagonists as well as cannon fodder enemies.

I legit have never thought of that point. I'm super interested in seeing something like that now.

 

[truestatic]

again: it's not just about "what gendered character can you play" but about it being a man's story or a woman's.
I do believe that a strong, immersive narrative doesn't work as well if your protagonist is customizable - Mass Effect being one of those rare eceptions.

It affects the kind of story you can tell, and the degree to which you can explore aspects of the protagonist's experience for sure.

Just look to Final Fantasy XV for a potential example, where they've specifically said that they wanted to do the male exclusive party thing in order to explore the male social dynamic in a way they couldn't with women present. Which may or may not turn out to be more credit than it deserves, but that sort of thing should exist for both genders.

similarly, i don't think Life is Strange would have been as impactful and / or succesful if the player character hadn't been exclusively female. It's the story of a teenage girl - not a teenage "person."

Absolutely agree. A male/female protag shared spotlight would have drastically transformed it and probably resulted in a poorer game.

 

[Allonym]

The ' Ripley as manly' idea is a bit odd considering how her primary antagonists are female (with their own 'children'), and how much of it concerns motherhood. Or the facehuggers as threat-of-rape. She's just a great example of a female lead in a horror (Alien) or action (the others) film.

I've often thought that even her relationship with the cat (Jones?) would be depicted differently if she was a bloke.

Jonesy. I think Ripley is a great character and an awesome lead along with Sarah Connor. They were the original trailblazers in terms of no-nonsense female leads in sci-fi cinema. The aliens first victim, the engineering guy whose name I forget, seemed very partial to Jonesy, so I'm not sure if Ripley and Jonesy's relationship would really change if Ripley were male. I think anyone who cares for animals and didn't want to leave the animal to die, whether by the xenomorph or ship exploding, would've attempted to get it.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

It's really cool the "either" part is still going strong, but of course she's absolutely right with the numbers. I don't even understand how this is put in question lol.

People shouldn't be afraid about this aspect of games being contested (and thus, hopefully changing soon). It's such a cool thing to aim for, making this hobby more open and welcoming to everyone eventually. It'll take some time still, as even on NeoGAF every time female empowerment or even just championing female protagonists (which should be a matter of course) leads to some really sad and sometimes actually horrifying viewpoints.

Gaming eventually will "grow up" with (most of) its audience, hopefully, and just counting numbers like this helps a big deal realizing what's the issue still.

 

[Steroyd]

Not quite that simple anyway, one of the tropes she regularly mentions is men simply being reskinned to be female; that the character is no different from what would otherwise be a male protagonist and lacks feminine qualities or approach.

Doubtful a game like the shooter Doom would be done with a female protagonist, or that a female would be a leading role in a Call of Duty and even if they were, they would fail that 'male reskinned to female' critique.

Given how popular violent titles like shooters are, you probably aren't going to get a 50/50 split without stepping on some other tropes.

Da fuq? I would have thought the whole point of having a female character was that it didn't make a big song and dance about female that's how women end up being well represented, just a character in the main protag seat that happens to be female.

And what does "feminine qualities or approach" even mean? Assassin's Creed Liberation explored that to a degree with the main character dressing up as a lady to get to certain areas or do specific things in the game and it sucked, then you have the other extreme of Super Princess Peach with emotional mood swings for attacks, I'm curious as to how Anita would do that without coming off as being sexist in creating a female video game character.

 

[Henkka]

similarly, i don't think Life is Strange would have been as impactful and / or succesful if the player character hadn't been exclusively female. It's the story of a teenage girl - not a teenage "person."

True.

But it also goes the other way around. God of War is apparently going to be a story of a father and son, not "parent" and "child".