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[Caronte]

Why does it have to be exclusively female characters? Mass Effect is using the female version as default. Detroit has Kara (which wasn't shown because we already met her in the first trailer).

This is nitpicking.

 

[mclem]

I think I'd slightly disagree with the metrics, while still agreeing with the overall sentiment, in that I think that if games offer a choice, but the female gender clearly leads the promotion of the game, then that should be regarded as a positive approach - if we're talking about representation and image, then how the game is presented should absolutely be a part of that. Splatoon offers a gender choice, sure, but it's the female character that is front-and-centre. And conversely, Ever Oasis offers a gender choice, but what I saw of the presentation of the game focused on the male character. I don't know how Dishonored 2 is being presented? Is Emily the lead with Corvo as an alternative, or are they equal?

 

[A-V-B]

I don't know how Dishonored 2 is being presented? Is Emily the lead with Corvo as an alternative, or are they equal?

I think they're technically equal, but it feels they're pushing Emily as "The More Interesting Lead," which she may well be.

 

[Fliesen]

It affects the kind of story you can tell, and the degree to which you can explore aspects of the protagonist's experience for sure.

Just look to Final Fantasy XV for a potential example, where they've specifically said that they wanted to do the male exclusive party thing in order to explore the male social dynamic in a way they couldn't with women present. Which may or may not turn out to be more credit than it deserves, but that sort of thing should exist for both genders.

which is perfectly fine.
Similarly, if Naughty Dog argued that they wanted to tell a story about a father who couldn't protect his daughter and what person that turned him into - something that wouldn't have worked as well with a 'mother' character or a 'son' protagonist - i believe them.

If we ask for more games written around a female protagonist, we're tapping into narratives that haven't been told before.

 

[truestatic]

Da fuq? I would have thought the whole point of having a female character was that it didn't make a big song and dance about female that's how women end up being well represented, just a character in the main protag seat that happens to be female.

And what does "feminine qualities or approach" even mean? Assassin's Creed Liberation explored that to a degree with the main character dressing up as a lady to get to certain areas or do specific things in the game and it sucked, then you have the other extreme of Super Princess Peach with emotional mood swings for attacks, I'm curious as to how Anita would do that without coming off as being sexist in creating a female video game character.

A game can feature a character who just happens to be female, or a woman whose femininity is integral to the themes or narrative. Both of these can be fine and good things. You don't have a lot of room to explore femininity in a CoD, but the aforementioned Life is Strange affords the opportunity in a cool, positive way.

I don't know how Dishonored 2 is being presented? Is Emily the lead with Corvo as an alternative, or are they equal?

In game? Likely pretty equal. I imagine they'll have each take up a side of the screen as a 'character select' thing when you start the game. That said, with Corvo being old, secondary to the game's marketing, familiar to Dishonored fans, and not an especially compelling character, I think it's very likely he'll be the far less picked of the two.

Just a guess though...

 

[Allonym]

similarly, i don't think Life is Strange would have been as impactful and / or succesful if the player character hadn't been exclusively female. It's the story of a teenage girl - not a teenage "person."

I understand your point and I think we're in agreement. My argument is that not every story would be fitting for both sexes as protagonists. There are stories where the actual player is the true lead and your character is merely a vessel and can sex will not matter and there are games that to tell a certain story favor one sex over the other. Also it's dependent on the writer, being a man, I find it easier to write from the perspective of a man. I feel if I were to write from the eyes of a woman, I'd have to research or fabricate things I don't truly understand or necessarily feel. So maybe that's a shortcoming other writers may have when creating a game's plot.

 

[BGBW]

60% of world population are Asian, none of the game at E3 has an Asian protagonist. Where is the equality?

#FE and Persona 5?

 

[A-V-B]

#FE and Persona 5?

And Death Stranding, starring Hideo Kojima!

...wait...

 

[Fliesen]

I understand your point and I think we're in agreement. My argument is that not every story would be fitting for both sexes as protagonists. There are stories where the actual player is the true lead and your character is merely a vessel and can sex will not matter and there are games that to tell a certain story favor one sex over the other. Also it's dependent on the writer, being a man, I find it easier to write from the perspective of a man. I feel if I were to write from the eyes of a woman, I'd have to research or fabricate things I don't truly understand or necessarily feel. So maybe that's a shortcoming other writers may have when creating a game's plot.

yeah, i do agree with many points of yours.

and to add to the bolded. now let's follow that chain back, from the protagonist to the writer.
More female protagonists in games, more "women's stories" -> more need for people who can write a woman's story -> more need for female writers -> more balanced gender representation within the industry as a whole.

 

[truestatic]

#FE and Persona 5?

Did either of those end up on stage at a presser or the Treehouse Livestream?

Spoiler

#FE hype. Just one week, now.

More female protagonists in games, more "women's stories" -> more need for people who can write a woman's story -> more need for female writers -> more balanced gender representation within the industry as a whole.

A promising cycle.

 

[Ratrat]

Where is the list?

 

[EmSeta]

Honestly for me, it's just boring to play the same dude over and over. Some variety is always nice. If you look at the male character design a lot of them are just blending in and becoming almost the same mid age grizzly character.

Yeah, this is main gripe, selfish as it may be,

 

[truestatic]

Where is the list?

I don't think they published it, you'd have to compile it yourself, I think.

If devs are gonna go with middle age grizzly characters, I wanna see them go all out and make a lumberjack with super powers who is trying to save his daughter... who is something ridiculous, like she's the fucking moon, and he chops into pieces the alien mothership that's stolen her. With his axe. His unstoppably awesome cosmic axe.

Published by Devolver Digital.

 

[A-V-B]

Yeah, this is main gripe, selfish as it may be,

If devs are gonna go with middle age grizzly characters, I wanna see them go all out and make a lumberjack with super powers who is trying to save his daughter... who is something ridiculous, like she's the fucking moon, and he chops into pieces the alien mothership that's stolen her. With his axe. His unstoppably awesome cosmic axe.

 

[Eumi]

It affects the kind of story you can tell, and the degree to which you can explore aspects of the protagonist's experience for sure.

Just look to Final Fantasy XV for a potential example, where they've specifically said that they wanted to do the male exclusive party thing in order to explore the male social dynamic in a way they couldn't with women present. Which may or may not turn out to be more credit than it deserves, but that sort of thing should exist for both genders.

FF15 is a terrible example for what this thread is about as there've been tons of jrpg's with exclusively female casts made before and no one ever brought up the equality issue there (although it's not like they should have).

 

[SimplyOlivia]

Why does it have to be exclusively female characters? Mass Effect is using the female version as default. Detroit has Kara (which wasn't shown because we already met her in the first trailer).

This is nitpicking.

Honestly, this.

Having a choice is a hell of a lot better for society than being forced to play as one or the other. There were quite a few games shown that enabled you to choose which sex to play as and they completely miss them out.

It's stupid. Feminism is supposed to be about equality not superiority.

 

[Jonnax]

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game. I prefer something natural as opposed to some contrivance meant to appeal to a vocal community. Just my opinion. If your game was made in mind with having a minority/female/transexual lead great, if it wasn't, don't alter your vision for the sake winning press or the respect of gamers.

You know I never understood this.
I'm a western brown person, culturally I'm British through and through.

Why can't there just be a character that is of a different skin colour or sexuality but they just live their life like any other person person of what ever country they're in?

In media I'm always happy to see a different person that doesn't fall into a stereotype. Why does the question have to be "They're just a normal person, why should they be a minority?"

 

[truestatic]

FF15 is a terrible example for what this thread is about as there've been tons of jrpg's with exclusively female casts made before and no one ever brought up the equality issue there (although it's not like they should have).

I wasn't tearing it down.

 

[SaucyJack]

it always baffles me how worked up some people get about other people just doing some counting.

It's not the counting, it's the deliberate miscounting and wilful misrepresenting on the back of it.

Presumably if we had more female characters we'd have complaints about them being too sexy.

 

[Number_6]

I'm all for female protagonists--I play them, and I often choose them when given the option.

But this 3% only counts games where you can only play as a female protagonist. The very same article says that the majority of games gives a choice.

So options don't count?

 

[truestatic]

It's not the counting, it's the deliberate miscounting and wilful misrepresenting on the back of it.

Presumably if we had more female characters we'd have complaints about them being too sexy.

What deliberate miscounting. Is there something specific you wanna take issue with here? Is there a a game she missed?

And don't shove words in the mouths of your strawman opponents. It's unbecoming.

Spoiler

PS We could always just preempt that complaint about said plethora of female protags by just not objectifying them.

I'm all for female protagonists--I play them, and I often choose them when given the option.

But this 3% only counts games where you can only play as a female protagonist. The very same article says that the majority of games gives a choice.

So options don't count?

Not for this specific comparison, no. We're comparing 3% to 41%, if that makes any matter, not 3% to 97%.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

The U.S. is leading the world in childhood poverty, unemployment, corruption within the political and criminal justice systems, mass shootings, debt, and academic failure.


And this is what feminists are talking about? The fact that there aren't as many female characters in video games, as there are males?

I don't think Anita should be given a say on what goes into video games. She's probably only interested in "I'm Fat and I have Daddy Issues Simulator version 3.66"

Don't be a prick. Feminist Frequency is not intended to discuss these issues in the same way IGN is not intended to discuss war crimes. This is an inane, stupid deflection.

Edit - oh, I see you've been banned. Presumably for this moronic comment.

 

[Steve.1981]

I see a lot of people still struggle with the basic concept that we need more games where we experience the action from a female perspective.

Being able to choose if Shepard is a man or woman is great, but it's not the same as having a female lead and telling the story exclusively from her point of view. It's that simple.

Telling our stories from a variety of diverse points of view can only be a good thing for all of us, I think.

 

[Allonym]

yeah, i do agree with many points of yours.

and to add to the bolded. now let's follow that chain back, from the protagonist to the writer.
More female protagonists in games, more "women's stories" -> more need for people who can write a woman's story -> more need for female writers -> more balanced gender representation within the industry as a whole.

Yea that's true, but ultimately why are gamers/industry held accountable for the lack of female representation? I don't believe the industry is uninviting towards women or exclusive. I think the internet has proven to be both good and bad though in it's treatment of women in gaming; it's allowed people to be sexist and misogynistic but also empowers people to seek "justice" for those that have been wronged in the industry as well. People use their anonymity for cruel deeds but the internet demands retribution when there's a face or name associated with an attack. I don't know how many stories pop-up on neogaf about someone being victimized by idiots on the internet or irl and there's a demand for blood so to speak.

Still, we have no say of what career path a woman chooses to follow. I think now, our society is becoming more progressive and people see that games really aren't some niche segment and I think as that idea proliferates we'll see more women and more stories told from their eyes and this market won't be largely see as for just boys.

Sorry about the tangent.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm all for female protagonists--I play them, and I often choose them when given the option.

But this 3% only counts games where you can only play as a female protagonist. The very same article says that the majority of games gives a choice.

So options don't count?

How don't they count when they counted them? If you wanna compare the 52% figure then compare it to the 90% figure for male playable not the 3% only female playable.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Why does it have to be exclusively female characters? Mass Effect is using the female version as default. Detroit has Kara (which wasn't shown because we already met her in the first trailer).

This is nitpicking.

When a man wants a game that is written exclusively for a man (as Henkka pointed out, God of War is a story written with a male character in mind), they wouldn't be able to play every entry in that list in their lifetime.

A woman has to actively seek out stories written for women.

If you think that's nitpicking, then I don't know what to tell you. It's probably because you don't understand the idea of wanting something and having to look everywhere before you find it.

 

[Fliesen]

It's not the counting, it's the deliberate miscounting and wilful misrepresenting on the back of it.

Presumably if we had more female characters we'd have complaints about them being too sexy.

what if we had more female characters and didn't pointlessly sexualize them. That would be something, wouldn't it?

 

[redcrayon]

Jonesy. I think Ripley is a great character and an awesome lead along with Sarah Connor. They were the original trailblazers in terms of no-nonsense female leads in sci-fi cinema. The aliens first victim, the engineering guy whose name I forget, seemed very partial to Jonesy, so I'm not sure if Ripley and Jonesy's relationship would really change if Ripley were male. I think anyone who cares for animals and didn't want to leave the animal to die, whether by the xenomorph or ship exploding, would've attempted to get it.

Ah, fair point. I was more thinking as to whether they'd have even given Ripley a pet cat if Ripley was male, dogs usually seem to be the go-to companion! I don't know why I assume that- maybe dogs appear more because they are easier to work with when making action films or something

 

[Kinyou]

well, the issue is: Nathan Drake is a well established character. Uncharted tells the Story of Nathan Drake. Same goes for Kratos, Joel, etc.
"female avatar from Dark Souls" is not a character.

An exclusively female character means that the narrative of the game is a woman's story. and not just one of a genderless player character.

It still counters the idea that only men can be heroes

 

[truestatic]

Yea that's true, but ultimately why are gamers/industry held accountable for the lack of female representation? I don't believe the industry is uninviting towards women or exclusive. I think the internet has proven to be both good and bad though in it's treatment of women in gaming; it's allowed people to be sexist and misogynistic but also empowers people to seek "justice" for those that have been wronged in the industry as well. People use their anonymity for cruel deeds but the internet demands retribution when there's a face or name associated with an attack. I don't know how many stories pop-up on neogaf about someone being victimized by idiots on the internet or irl and there's a demand for blood so to speak.

Still, we have no say of what career path a woman chooses to follow. I think now, our society is becoming more progressive and people see that games really aren't some niche segment and I think as that idea proliferates we'll see more women and more stories told from their eyes and this market won't be largely see as for just boys.

Sorry about the tangent.

I think your vision of the industry and the doling out of internet justice to harassers is just a wee bit optimistic.

 

[Allonym]

Honestly, this.

Having a choice is a hell of a lot better for society than being forced to play as one or the other. There were quite a few games shown that enabled you to choose which sex to play as and they completely miss them out.

It's stupid. Feminism is supposed to be about equality not superiority.

I get what you mean but I think someone's rebuttal could simply be that the number of sole female lead games (3%) proves that things aren't equal and this push for more would put them on an equal playing field.

 

[Hypron]

You know I never understood this.
I'm a western brown person, culturally I'm British through and through.

Why can't there just be a character that is of a different skin colour or sexuality but they just live their life like any other person person of what ever country they're in?

In media I'm always happy to see a different person that doesn't fall into a stereotype. Why does the question have to be "They're just a normal person, why should they be a minority?"

Yeah. Saying "I'm happy to have females/minorities in my games if there's a good reason for it" is just reinforcing the notion that white males are the default, which is just bullshit. There should be all sorts of different characters in games. People don't ask for the presence of white male characters to be justified, and they shouldn't ask for the presence of other characters to be justified either.

Also, the OP should add this pie chart in the OP:

So many people are getting super hung on the 3% figure ("but games where you can choose") because it's left out of the OP.

 

[Raylan]

Well we have Aloy, Kara and Kat

Too bad we can't play Princess Zelda in Zelda :/

 

[Lady Siara]

Honestly, this.

Having a choice is a hell of a lot better for society than being forced to play as one or the other. There were quite a few games shown that enabled you to choose which sex to play as and they completely miss them out.

It's stupid. Feminism is supposed to be about equality not superiority.

Choice is good but a gender focused experience can sometimes provide a better narrative. For example, you can't tell me that Skyrim's narrative had the same emotional impact Life is Strange had. They're two completely different games, sure, but Life is Strange had an exclusively female lead and the story felt more organic than Skyrim's reactionary "Oh, you're a female" approach.

These games where you choose your own gender are fun but don't leave a lot of room for nuance. At times, gender differences can come across as hokey as the binary good vs. evil paradigm.

 

[mclem]

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game.

I'm of the opinion that inclusion is very rarely actually 'shoehorning', it just may sometimes feel that way because of the pervasive norm. Which is exactly the problem.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's not the counting, it's the deliberate miscounting and wilful misrepresenting on the back of it.

Presumably if we had more female characters we'd have complaints about them being too sexy.

No, you're not presuming anything. You're assuming. Presumptions imply logic and reason.

 

[mdzapeer]

It affects the kind of story you can tell, and the degree to which you can explore aspects of the protagonist's experience for sure.

Just look to Final Fantasy XV for a potential example, where they've specifically said that they wanted to do the male exclusive party thing in order to explore the male social dynamic in a way they couldn't with women present. Which may or may not turn out to be more credit than it deserves, but that sort of thing should exist for both genders.



Absolutely agree. A male/female protag shared spotlight would have drastically transformed it and probably resulted in a poorer game.

Final Fantasy X-2 already had the all girl troop, I have to yet play the game fully but first impressions of it did not come across well, in giving the main characters depth.

But I do wish more women/Girls were represented in gaming, properly too.

 

[Steve.1981]

what if we had more female characters and didn't pointlessly sexualize them. That would be something, wouldn't it?

Look at how Aloy, the lead character from Horizon, is being received. Look at the posts that crop up in every new thread talking about the game,

"She's not a very attractive main character, just my opinion..."

But thankfully, the majority of people think she's a great design.

 

[truestatic]

Choice is good but a gender focused experience can sometimes provide a better narrative. For example, you can't tell me that Skyrim's narrative had the same emotional impact Life is Strange had. They're two completely different games, sure, but Life is Strange had an exclusively female lead and the story felt more organic than Skyrim's reactionary "Oh, you're a female" approach.

These games where you choose your own gender are fun but don't leave a lot of room for nuance. At times, gender differences can come across as hokey as the binary good vs. evil paradigm.

That may've also had something to do with the disparity in the quality of writing between the folks at Bethesda and those at Dontnod. Despite people's misgivings about the dialogue Life is Strange was a genuinely enthralling narrative.

Not to say I disagree with the strength of Life is Strange's use of a female protagonist, just that Skyrim's perhaps not the best point of comparison.

 

[Allonym]

I think your vision of the industry and the doling out of internet justice to harassers is just a wee bit optimistic.

Maybe, but just from skimming some of that article, if the harassers name was disclosed that stated "women are the niggers of gender" do you not think there wouldn't be a call to get this person terminated and make sure they'd never work in whatever industry they are again? I definitely think it'd haappen

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Granted, but I'm a little bummed they discounted dishonored 2. Corvo is playable too, but the games marketing seems to center around Emily to the extreme, so to disclude it from the list of games that 'don't feature a female protagonist' seems unfair to dishonored. Not to the stats, though. 2 vs 3 is not a big step up.

Edit: Corvo, not Corgi. Fuck you, autocorrect.

Now I want to play a stealth action game where you play as a Corgi. Maybe protecting the British Monarchy?

 

[Yabberwocky]

I do have to eye-roll for days at people always being incredibly concerned about developers not getting to make the characters/stories the way they want, and having minority/LGBT/female characters just added in for the sake of it - congratulations, that's exactly what the gaming/film/television industry has been doing for decades with straight white male leads! The contuinal anecdotes about creators having to homogenise their stories and leads by publishers/producers/companies is incredibly depressing. Welcome to the entertainment industry, and unless you're paying for it yourself, you're not getting to make anything 100% the way you want. No one is all that bothered when developers are forced to change to a male lead, over and over again, but even a hint of the reverse? Sound the alarms!

Anyway, there will never be an enforced diversity quota that devs are chained to their desks to work for, so nobody needs to clutch their pearls whilst worrying over the great fall of artistic freedom. This kind of article is just a useful perspective. This year's E3 felt quite refreshing in terms of diversity and female representation, even if the amount of games with lone female leads was quite small. I only discovered the other day that you can play as a girl in South Park: The Fractured but Whole, with a lot of work going in to the game to make sure Cartman and the rest of the gang acknowledged and interacted with the PC being female. (Matt and Trey chose to add a female character option, they were not forced by Ubisoft on threat of violent wedgies, for those who were concerned.) Their thoughts behind it are a great read, too, and it's a great example of why diversity and thinking outside the box can lead to some interesting places.

 

[A Link to the Past]

what if we had more female characters and didn't pointlessly sexualize them. That would be something, wouldn't it?

 

[Dandy Lyin]

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game. I prefer something natural as opposed to some contrivance meant to appeal to a vocal community. Just my opinion. If your game was made in mind with having a minority/female/transexual lead great, if it wasn't, don't alter your vision for the sake winning press or the respect of gamers.

I'm all for preserving artistic integrity of the creator. I just don't think that the glut of white male protagonists has anything to do with art.

See Lionhead not being allowed to have a black female NPC on the cover of Fable 3. Or Dontnod having publishers pass on Remember Me because they wouldn't change their protagonist into a man.

 

[SimplyOlivia]

A woman has to actively seek out stories written for women.
.

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

That makes no sense. A woman can enjoy any bloody game she wants. I personally enjoyed the GoW games because they were mindless fun.

Edit- missed the context as he/she noted.

 

[truestatic]

Maybe, but just from skimming some of that article, if the harassers name was disclosed that stated "some garbager" do you not think there wouldn't be a call to get this person terminated and make sure they'd never work in whatever industry they are again? I definitely think it'd haappen

Fwiw I'd avoid the urge to quote him directly. And due to the double edged sword of internet anonymity, I doubt it's something that'll ever catch up to him, or the innumerable people like him. Thanks to the sheer amount of this sort of garbage that gets written and directed at women in this industry, you can't possibly tell me that you think there's a benevolent soul on the case for all these shitheads.

lol

 

[A Link to the Past]

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

That makes so sense. A woman can enjoy any bloody game she wants. I personally enjoyed the GoW games because they were mindless fun.

I'm just going to assume that you didn't intentionally remove context and remove the fact that I am talking about people who are seeking roles that specifically star their respective gender. So I'll just advise you to reread with that in mind.

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game. I prefer something natural as opposed to some contrivance meant to appeal to a vocal community. Just my opinion. If your game was made in mind with having a minority/female/transexual lead great, if it wasn't, don't alter your vision for the sake winning press or the respect of gamers.

Is this in response to something that happens, or something you've decided happens?

If you ever found instances of shoehorning in this industry, what you'll find is a case of pandering to white and male more than anything. This is also for the opposite, where women/non-white characters are reduced or removed to appease white audiences.

 

[mclem]

Now I want to play a stealth action game where you play as a Corgi. Maybe protecting the British Monarchy?

It could be a sequel to Flunky.

 

[truestatic]

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

That makes so sense. A woman can enjoy any bloody game she wants. I personally enjoyed the GoW games because they were mindless fun.

I think you're missing AlttP's point. Yes, anyone can enjoy any

Spoiler

good

game. But sometimes it's nice to enjoy a game that explores aspects of an identity you share. To see something of yourself in a protagonist.

Now I want to play a stealth action game where you play as a Corgi. Maybe protecting the British Monarchy?

It could be a sequel to Flunky.]

Please let's not let my typo get the thread disrupt the thread. nofunallowed.jpg

 

[mclem]

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

That makes so sense. A woman can enjoy any bloody game she wants. I personally enjoyed the GoW games because they were mindless fun.

His point was that if they want to play a story from a female perspective, there's much less out there to choose from.