Wiktor
Member
Why would singleplayer FPSes be the sole genre that's considered as "PC showpiece"? Because that's the only way what you wrote is true.
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PC vs. Next Gen Consoles: Your current rig really won't cut it
- Thread starter Kosma
- Start date
The E3 demo ran on a tri SLI of GTX680...That screams next-gen to me, not current-gen even though it's not impossible to see the game released on PS360, it's Unreal Engine 3 at its core after all.
Except that SSD are only good for OS and not gaming thanks to the average 3k writes per cell
The quote you're quoting says being ported to next-gen. You're agreeing.
He claims the game is developped with current-gen specs in mind if I read his post correctly and well three GTX680 don't really dovetail with that. This is Durango/Orbis level, SW1313 is a next-gen title going by what we have seen.
However I would not be surprised if it releases on current consoles as well.
Do you really believe that level of visual fidelity is what can be expected from first gen titles from consoles? Perhaps at 720p or dynamic resolution and with FXAA. Also, iirc, the Agni's philosophy engine is more efficient than UE3.9. That said, is there no doubt that the title might be ported to UE4 during this dev process?
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
A similar setup most likely.
Absolutely, and right at launch in 1080p. Not at 60fps though and with SMAA.
I have no idea how easy it would be to port everything over to UE4, would that require to recreate the assets for instance ?
You can search on Google for the sources, I'm not making this up. It's mentionned in the PCgamer preview :
http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/star-wars-1313-preview/
We don't know on what kind of setup did WD run, a very high-end PC most likely.
People still act like this is 2005. This is going to be so hilarious when consumers finally figure out that their consoles are now just unupgradeable AMD powered HTPCs with custom UIs. Gaben has been waiting for this moment. He's going to sell his HTPC along with offering the same services\software across all PCs.
I don't know what people are thinking. It's like console players think that their's some kind of black magic secret technology that's going to be used for their consoles. The fact that consoles and PCs are going to share similar architectures and Direct X11 (and Sony's OpenGL which shares many of the same functions as DirectX11) is going to be hilariously surprising for some people when they see that their getting stripped down PC ports.
How is a console going to be affordable if it's supposed to keep up with Haswell CPUs and Maxwell GPUs in 2014? I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft don't want to sell their consoles at a loss per unit again.
I don't know what people are thinking. It's like console players think that their's some kind of black magic secret technology that's going to be used for their consoles. The fact that consoles and PCs are going to share similar architectures and Direct X11 (and Sony's OpenGL which shares many of the same functions as DirectX11) is going to be hilariously surprising for some people when they see that their getting stripped down PC ports.
How is a console going to be affordable if it's supposed to keep up with Haswell CPUs and Maxwell GPUs in 2014? I'm pretty sure Sony and Microsoft don't want to sell their consoles at a loss per unit again.
Why even say that? Watch Dogs easily looks better than the current PC version of Far Cry 3.
But he said current PC specs. Which are a big step above current consoles. He also says the current PC specs means it will be ported to next-gen consoles.
I don't think it supports his other point that next-gen consoles will have better looking games for a year, but he said next gen consoles, not current-gen consoles.
Why are you so sure about that? That's the console business model and Sony has done it 5 times and MS has done it twice before.
Also the OP is not about keeping up with stuff released in 2014. It's about stuff released right now.
Okay, I had current gen for PC/console mixed up. Still, even if the E3 build was not optimized this is one of the game I will gladly upgrade for.
Woo-Fu
Banned
It doesn't have anything to do with FPS, you missed his point.
It was the only game that pushed requirements to the very edge. It had nothing to do with the genre and everything to do with decisions made by the developer.
Most developers/publishers know better than to make a game that will only run on the very best hardware because by doing so they drastically limit their market and also increase both returns and support tickets.
Instead you get games with lots of graphics settings so you can match the game's graphics to whatever horsepower you have available. Games that will look great on great hardware and good on good hardware and OK on OK hardware.
Apples and oranges. Matter of fact, unobtainable apples vs. easily acquired oranges, lol.
The more consoles become like PCs the less likely to ever see consoles have even a minor edge in graphics. There was no edge last generation, there was no edge the generation before. This next generation's hardware is just a twist on the same graphics technology anybody can add to their PC. Odds of it looking better than the best PC kit? Nil.
Consoles have a lower up front cost and will typically perform better at their price points than an equivalent PC. Isn't that enough?
Not true at all. Every spot in any game where you see a loading screen you could see it for a far shorter period of time if you were on SSD.
OP raises some valid points backed up with viable evidence. I'm not 100% convinced that the pc gaming market is the same beast it was 8 years ago though. In 2004/5 the idea of crossfire or SLI was in it's fetal stages as well as multi core CPU's only just becoming a "thing". I'd go as far as to say that the 360's design drove the development of direct x 9,10 and 11. It took a couple of years sure but PC technology caught up by 2007/8 and rapidly began exceeding consoles by way of extra GPU's and even more cores. Options which aren't quite as viable on a set mass produced box. Well, extra gpu's at least.
The xbox 360 in particular came at a time just before Intel started going hard with its core/core2 chips. Honestly the point the OP is making- that a 2012/2013 built gaming pc won't do a very good job of running nextbox/ps4 games released in 2015 and beyond- is probably an accurate one. Give developers a couple of years to push these new systems pretty hard and I've no doubt amazing things will occur. Those same games will get ported well to a 2015 level PC setup, running them on something older may still work if you leave everything kicked down a notch but if the history of console to pc ports has shown us anything it's that these games rarely get optimized until the performance increase is on a whole other level. Kind of like what's been happening for the last 2-3 years on pc's actually. Since intel brought out the i7 both they and the GPU's available have been a minimum of double the capability and it shows- run your favorite 360 game in 1080p @60fps with a 500$ computer or crank all the special effects up well beyond what that 2004/5 technology could ever do. This stuff is possible on 2009 and beyond tech.
So yeah, do to a lack of optimization it would surprise me little if the majority of high end console gaming experiences on offer 2-3 years from now will suffer if ported and ran on a 2012 level gaming rig. This is why, if you want to really keep up with PC gaming you've gotta be fully prepared to upgrade that thing a couple of times and then ultimately after about 5 years , you build a new one. In my case, the 2009 pc builders thread helped me make a great computer that I got in january 2010. I've since added more memory and a second graphics card. I suspect it'll do me fine until 2015. Maybe by then I'll have finished all the games on my steam backlog ?
The xbox 360 in particular came at a time just before Intel started going hard with its core/core2 chips. Honestly the point the OP is making- that a 2012/2013 built gaming pc won't do a very good job of running nextbox/ps4 games released in 2015 and beyond- is probably an accurate one. Give developers a couple of years to push these new systems pretty hard and I've no doubt amazing things will occur. Those same games will get ported well to a 2015 level PC setup, running them on something older may still work if you leave everything kicked down a notch but if the history of console to pc ports has shown us anything it's that these games rarely get optimized until the performance increase is on a whole other level. Kind of like what's been happening for the last 2-3 years on pc's actually. Since intel brought out the i7 both they and the GPU's available have been a minimum of double the capability and it shows- run your favorite 360 game in 1080p @60fps with a 500$ computer or crank all the special effects up well beyond what that 2004/5 technology could ever do. This stuff is possible on 2009 and beyond tech.
So yeah, do to a lack of optimization it would surprise me little if the majority of high end console gaming experiences on offer 2-3 years from now will suffer if ported and ran on a 2012 level gaming rig. This is why, if you want to really keep up with PC gaming you've gotta be fully prepared to upgrade that thing a couple of times and then ultimately after about 5 years , you build a new one. In my case, the 2009 pc builders thread helped me make a great computer that I got in january 2010. I've since added more memory and a second graphics card. I suspect it'll do me fine until 2015. Maybe by then I'll have finished all the games on my steam backlog ?
dragonbane
Member
Zero physics is wrong though. Object collision, wind, touch bending, clothing and hair simulation is calculated in real time by a fully featured physics engine. Almost zero AI is correct, but in the modern day and age the most processing power goes into the rendering of the graphics anyway, not the AI. So while games like Beyond are definitely less demanding then others, it's not by much as many people like to think.
However, the PC is of course the superior platform. To imply otherwise is nonsense. Current gen console games only look this good today, because it's all about money, optimization and tricks.
I'm not exactly too educated on this subject, but I am curious as to the power being the inhibiting factor for really taking it above the current high end pc level of today.
For the 360 and such, many have mentioned that the power/watts is just far too great now, and wasnt as much of a factor then.
What are the possible alternative to get around this? Is it out of the question to have that additional power supply and maybe have the console be a bit larger - ala Xbox 1, or have any other additional components that would make this possible?
Also i understand heat is an issue too, so i guess my question would imply this factor as well.
For the 360 and such, many have mentioned that the power/watts is just far too great now, and wasnt as much of a factor then.
What are the possible alternative to get around this? Is it out of the question to have that additional power supply and maybe have the console be a bit larger - ala Xbox 1, or have any other additional components that would make this possible?
Also i understand heat is an issue too, so i guess my question would imply this factor as well.
eot
Banned
It wasn't directed at me, but I think monitors with those resolutions are too large (I've used them and I don't like them) and they also put you in the position where you have to put more money into your machine because using a resolution lower than the native sucks.
Yes, decent PCs now will be fine for a year or two but will probably struggle a bit after that. That's fine IMO since I upgrade my video card every two or three years. My CPU should be fine for quite a while.
I experienced the same thing with COD2 by the way. I had basically the PC equivalent of the 360's GPU and the 360 version looked like trash compared to on the PC. The texture filtering and aliasing were terrible. On the other hand, when games like DiRT starts to come out it felt like my PC was falling behind.
Everybody is saying that, but as I said above they can just increase the case size. People see this as something that cant be changed apparently.
I agree with the OP. It's happened after every generation, it will happen again.
One contributing factor to all this is attention: if you're a developer who wants to create a graphical masterpiece in 2013, you're focused on the PC. If it's 2014 and brand new consoles with a much higher baseline come out, your focus will be on the consoles.
As a result, it's only really at this stage in each generation that the PC gets much explicit attention for the large publishers' AAA games. The first few years of each console generation is surrounded by so much positive attention that it sucks up almost all of the focus and PC ports tend to be lazier, and run much less efficiently.
One contributing factor to all this is attention: if you're a developer who wants to create a graphical masterpiece in 2013, you're focused on the PC. If it's 2014 and brand new consoles with a much higher baseline come out, your focus will be on the consoles.
As a result, it's only really at this stage in each generation that the PC gets much explicit attention for the large publishers' AAA games. The first few years of each console generation is surrounded by so much positive attention that it sucks up almost all of the focus and PC ports tend to be lazier, and run much less efficiently.
They also need to keep in mind the power draw. There are always compromises .They can't go full out like some people with 800-1000W machines on load because they have a triple SLI setups.
I mean my PC was one of those from GAF based on the enthusiast build. It has a much higer power draw than any of the consoles. And also cost as much as every current-gen console plus a handheld combined.
MS and Sony can't go full out like that, which is why I don't understand why people get so defensive.
This is a thread about a very specific point that the OP probably saw a few times to decide to make a thread about.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
This thread seems to take a lot weird logic and "proof" to state what should be obvious to all of us. No, my core i7 + 680gtx build is not going to run games on the top settings or even at all in 6years. You don't need to look at prior trends to understand that. It will be very very interesting to see the first wave of PC/next gen games. It'll be cool to see th game where a mix of medium/low settings looks 10x as good as crysis.
I do expect we'll fare better at the start of next generation than the start of last generation, they made a crazy big leap with the 360/PS3 and we were still having huge jumps in graphical hardware. But those jumps minimized, and consoles can't afford to come out at the same insane losses I imagine, and now every computer worth caring about has a multicore processor (the single biggest difference consoles had with PCs at the start of this generation), so combined with the thermodynamics point I think we'll end up wanting to upgrade more to go to higher resolutions (maybe 4k monitors get put out?) or because they stop optimizing well for weaker hardware as the case probably was this time.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Your getting what I'm saying.
My other point is this game hasn't been optimized with next-gen specs in mind.
Games developed with next-gen architecture in mind first and foremost, then ported to PC will look better for the first year, give or take a few months. SW1313 has been developed with PC in mind, and won't be as optimized for next-gen consoles is what I'm speculating.
Edit: Ehhhhh, it's still not exactly what I'm saying. I can clarify further if you can answer one question. Is SW1313 releasing on PS360?
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
My rig shouldn't even cut it right now. It's a bunch of parts that weren't even high end in 2009. Who knows what the future will bring. We're completely off the beaten path.
eso76
Member
What ? It looked nice but 3 x GTX680 ?? Unless it was running in 2160p60fps or something like that I'm calling worst, laziest use of resources ever.
It was highly unoptimized. It sure looks good but the visuals don't warrant such hardware.
Wiktor
Member
Umm..Crysis didn't run only on the very best hardware.. it looked and ran fine on lower settings on weaker hardware.
I think what's really missing here has a lot to do with what games get released and to what systems. People don't buy systems because of their graphical performance (or rather, this is a small, niche community), they buy it because there's something on it they want to enjoy (possibly in a certain space, like a living room instead of a computer room).
I don't plan on buying a next-gen system for some time, if at all, if there are never any games on it that I feel make the system worth it. In other words, exclusives (and/or kids wanting it for game X or Y) make the decision for me.
I don't plan on buying a next-gen system for some time, if at all, if there are never any games on it that I feel make the system worth it. In other words, exclusives (and/or kids wanting it for game X or Y) make the decision for me.
Is the OP trying to convince us that we would receive the best bang for our buck next-gen if we went with a console? That all depends on what kind of bang you're looking for. We're going to see even less 3rd party console exclusives next generation than we did this generation; ntm less retail games overall.
We lost nearly half of the retail console game developers, since 2005, due to rising development cost. We can't afford to lose half again to non-retail & touchscreen mobile gaming, so expect to see a more conservative output, and even less risks being taken, for next generation retail games. Especially in the first couple of years.
We lost nearly half of the retail console game developers, since 2005, due to rising development cost. We can't afford to lose half again to non-retail & touchscreen mobile gaming, so expect to see a more conservative output, and even less risks being taken, for next generation retail games. Especially in the first couple of years.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's going to be interesting to see how the next generation pans out if the rumors about them both being comprised of off-the-shelf CPUs/GPUs are true.
The whole problem with this argument is acting like anyone saying they won't need a next gen console doesn't expect to upgrade over the next few years. I don't mind paying for a few more upgrades, especially when I'll be saving alot of software. That's certainly no reason to go out and buy a $400-$500 console.
Besides, I'm betting alot of PC gamers issues have alot more to do with the closed platform than graphical performance.
Besides, I'm betting alot of PC gamers issues have alot more to do with the closed platform than graphical performance.
Yes. PC gamers are notoriously anti-Windows and anti-DRM and not at all graphics whores.
Edit: Oh this is not a Steambox thread. Ignore that post if you like, but PC gamers being against a closed platform is certainly new given that every Windows game has to run on a closed platform compared to Linux/BSD.
Yeah, price is definitely an issue, especially in the beginning. When it drops to like $200 or so, you also have to remember that a lot of the games (many of which will likely be over-hyped) will drop drastically in price. So at that point, you not only have a nice library of games to choose from, you also get to see which ones actually stand the test of time.
I'd expect that - similarly to the 8800 Ultra or whatever - the top cards today will be able to play console games of 5 years from now at 30fps with console settings, but not any of the added bells and whistles you mention.
I mean in relation to consoles. A PC gamer isn't going to go out and buy a Durango simply because of graphical capability. There's different genres, F2P, sales, and the like that you won't see from MS or Sony.
Plus we're going to see a nice boom of indie stuff on Steam, especially if some of the Kickstarter games set for this year deliver.
My mentality has always been that the reason for not needing a new console on day 1 like before is that I already have a PC that suits my needs. I'll certainly want a Durango or Orbis down the line for it's exclusives, but rushing out to go get a new console isn't a great proposition considering the way the industry has changed. Maybe it was appealing in 2005 when the 360 came out, but PC gaming was in a bad place back then.
I'm not going to buy any console on day one ever again after the defective shit that happened last gen. It's best to wait for a hardware revision and price drop, especially because by that time all of the launch exclusives will be discounted.
For all of this power we are anticipating next gen, only a few publishers will ever use that power to make games that look like a true next-gen leap. Any game that isn't projected to sell 4 Million plus, in all likelihood, won't see the kind of budget to take real advantage of that extra power.
If publishers are foolish enough to increase their budgets for games that have no chance to break even, we may see more visually impressive games, but it will be to the detriment of the industry.
If publishers are foolish enough to increase their budgets for games that have no chance to break even, we may see more visually impressive games, but it will be to the detriment of the industry.
You have mentally moved a goalpost from running games now until running games until the end of life of the next gen systems.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Some people are massively, massively overestimating the power of the next Xbox and Playstation.
Art design will make the games look a lot better, and there's optimizations to be had, but using the same "coding to the metal" talking points is getting annoying. There's no substance there.
Art design will make the games look a lot better, and there's optimizations to be had, but using the same "coding to the metal" talking points is getting annoying. There's no substance there.
What? What gave you that impression? Also, what info would lead you to make such a comparative analysis?
Also sacrificing IQ, if the next consoles can't produce visuals that's very close to say SW1313 or Crysis 3 by the mid if not the beginning of its existence then it's not really a generation worth of a jump. Also, given what has been shown off, it has been done so in expectation of what may come to pass. If it were truly completely unrealistic, I don't think we'd have seen something like Agni's philosophy or SW1313 etc with that level of visual fidelity.
Dictator93
Member
GPGPU, Coding to the metal, Power of the Cell, blast processing... etc they seem to have become catch all phrases with no meaning anymore.
The OPs statement does not make sense, holds true if anything for one generation, power envelopes do not allow this to occur anymore and neither does modern API and GPU design. They are much easier to code more generally for (no more split vertex and pixel shaders), easier to sqeueze life out of (multithreaded rendering), and are just damn hot and power hungry. The days of consoles launching on par or more powerful are very much so over.
The OPs statement does not make sense, holds true if anything for one generation, power envelopes do not allow this to occur anymore and neither does modern API and GPU design. They are much easier to code more generally for (no more split vertex and pixel shaders), easier to sqeueze life out of (multithreaded rendering), and are just damn hot and power hungry. The days of consoles launching on par or more powerful are very much so over.
StoppedInTracks
Member
Made with consoles in mind.
Heavy talks about the last game made with PCs in mind - like consoles never existed and the devs did not have to think about console RAM or CPU etc.