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Positive Female Characters - Anita Sarkeesian - The Scythian (Sword and Sworcery)

Oh hey everyone what's going on in this thread?

Hey, one of the guys responsible for this awesome game! :-D

Context, maybe? It was an honest question. If she is a gamer, moreso "hardcore", she would have a well of knowledge to pull ideas from. I think thats logical. I feel I have a few ideas of good female character design because of that.

I know nothing about Anita because I stay away from her threads because everyone is too quick to attack. Next time, I'll use wiki instead of asking a question. Jeez.

All it takes it some time put into research to get that knowledge. I don't understand the need to question if she's really a fan of this medium. And the "hardcore" part is just silly.

I'm not attacking you, but whenever there's a thread about Anita there is always at least one person that questions if she's a gamer, like the label actually means anything. And even if she didn't care for video games at all it would not make her opinion invalid in any way.
 
Nobody has attacked you. People have questioned the logic of your question and offered opinions on why it's perfectly valid to take this game as an example.
My question was laughable? That is an attack, especially since my question was in good faith.

I'm reasonable, especially when I'm wrong, but what happened common courtesy?
@Dog Problems: Being a gamer does have an effect, though. I never said or implied it invalidated her opinion, either. Only enhanced it. And I'm not that one guy. I'm an interested party sharing his opinion and asking a question.

I'll just stay out of these threads. Too much tension, maybe.
 
Indeed. People whining about how the Scythian doesn't have a fleshed out personality or is a blank slate or whatever, and therefore isn't a good character, are missing the point of the video, which is, well, this very idea above.

Many people enjoy characters like Link and other male blank slate characters. But if it's a woman "oh she's bland and boring"? If one thinks all mute protagonists suck all the time, meh, fine, but they still have their fans, so it's just personal preference then and doesn't make the Scythian a bad character any more than Link is.

Not to mention, Samus, the most famous female character people always cite as an example, was a million times better when she was an almost mute blank slate than when they tried to give her a "personality"...

The more I think about it, the more I think the likes of Link and Mario are actually better mute protagonists than other blank slates. Even though they don't talk I can find them likeable. Windwaker Link is my favorite Link, you can just see how he expresses himself to everything, you understand his preferences and his thoughts through action alone. Not only that but I think a good mute protagonist ropes you in by what they are doing. I can see Mario and Luigi pantomine in the rpgs and I love them for it but Gordon Freeman always felt disconnected to me.

Even in events with player agency, seeing a character carry out an action is important. Is Link a destructive little shit who impulsively breaks pots? Well, now I made him so. Gordon Freeman trying to jump on people's heads when they are talking to him just seems like it's me and my short attention span. Bringing it back to Sword and Sworcery, I played it but never beat it. The Scythian didn't draw me in, because I don't remember any real action she carried out that made me like her.

For someone like Samus, who I first played with in Super Metroid, she always felt badass to me because she played badass. Game mechanics and interaction are a huge part of making me like a character, sort of how a lot of peopke pick their favorite fighting games from how they play.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes beforehand, I hate typing on the phone.
 
I didn't like this game nearly as much as GF or the critics, which is strange because I tend to like games in this vein. I simply didn't connect with its world. Therefore, I never played enough to realize that the main character was female; in my defense, the game isn't called "Supersisters" or "Supersiblings" :)

Still, a strange example to pick (a mute player proxy with zero characterization). I'm not particularly impressed by such characters being female because it takes zero effort to make them any gender. Probably goes to show how badly female characters have it as a whole if this is an example worth an entire video.

Edit: Reading more recent comments, it seems that the point worth lauding is that they chose to make a proxy hero female. This is unambiguously a good thing, and my above comment doesn't meant any disrespect to its developers. Another game I played (to death, and loved) that has a pretty much blank slate female protagonist is Crypt of the Necrodancer. Cadence is such a badass.
 

cavemancolton

Unconfirmed Member
IMO this is what her videos should have been from the beginning. Showing examples of what she considers to be good examples of women in games and contrasting them point for point with bad examples shifts the tone from an attack on our medium and accusations of misogyny, to a proper constructive criticism of misrepresentation of women in games and a celebration of games that get it right.

Well done, Anita.
 

SystemBug

Member
IMO this is what her videos should have been from the beginning. Showing examples of what she considers to be good examples of women in games and contrasting them point for point with bad examples shifts the tone from an attack on our medium and accusations of misogyny, to a proper constructive criticism of misrepresentation of women in games and a celebration of games that get it right.

Well done, Anita.

You need to address the issues before you make people feel good about playing video games.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Seems like an odd first choice to me and I love Sword and Sworcery... but the gender of the main character in that game is largely irrelevant to the story in general.

Unless I'm missing some deeper context, (it's possible since the game is so incredibly vague), but Anita didn't really go over that in her video.

Yeah. If anything I see Sword and Sorcery as being useful as a lens about the "guy as default" trope, because I assumed given the traditional trappings and the art style it was probably a dude.

If anyone is interested in more examples of her ideal female characters, give this a read: Five Feminists Moments In The History Of Video Games, by Anita Sarkeesian and Caroline Petit.

Thanks for the link, that helped flesh out some of her thinking about this pick. Her idea of what constitutes a "powerful" and "honest" moment for Gone Home and Left Behind is strange to me, though. Maybe it'll make more sense when she does videos on them.
 
The title of the video was a bit misleading. It focused on a single character, rather than characters. Although, I do hope more videos like this are produced. It has been a primary criticism of her efforts to not show both sides and this was a good start. Although, Maybe there just aren't a lot of good examples that fit her point of view to work with.
 

ricki42

Member
Her segue into the pixellation of the character is really awkward as well. I found myself asking several times during the video whether this was a game review or a commentary on gender roles, because it seems like there are only a couple nods to the latter.
I got the impression that that is why she picked the game; it's not about gender roles, the protagonist just happens to be female without the story being about that at all.

I agree with the last part of the video which goes on to say that we simply need more stories involving women. However, this video simply isn't necessary as a PSA. More and more developers are starting to use female characters for many reasons, like product differentiation, word of mouth, mainstream audiences, etc.

And I think this is exactly the point that she is trying to address: that you think having a female protagonist requires very specific reasons - and all the reasons you list are just about selling the game, because somehow the developers can't simply want a female protagonist. If the game had a male protagonist, you likely wouldn't even think about reasons, it's just the default, even in games where it really doesn't matter.
 

scrambles

Neo Member
Yes, they could be interpreted as such if you wish.

Sorry I'm still a noob here and multiquotes are a little beyond my attention threshold. Please know that I fully respect your points, I'm not dismissing them or anything.

Anyway, I agree that there are gender stereotypes, and therefore we perceive the character as a male. I'm not sure that there is any problem in particular with that, though. Both men and women should both be given the same amount of respect. I just don't see that big of an issue here.

I'm not trying to say she's making a mountain out of a molehill, but I mean, I remember myself in college writing papers and making allusions to other works that probably didn't actually have a lot in common with the point of my paper despite a few transitory superficial similarities. At the time, I would agree with my professor that better examples could be made.
With this video I simply feel like this is a similar situation. It's done with earnest, but I'm not sure that this is entirely a gender stereotypes game.
When I look at the game and the character, despite being female, I have no problem with the character. I don't stop playing the game, and I even think it's perfectly normal and believable. I perhaps might just be looking at this from my own limited point of view, but I can't imagine that there'd be many other people who would take offense to this either. I certainly can't imagine anyone saying "this is silly", or "unrealistic" or anything like that because indeed like history we do have examples of courageous females, along with barbarous males, and many other tropes both positive and negative.

I think my problem with this whole commentary is that I personally don't see females unsuitable for the role, and so I find Anita's vision to be somewhat overly scrutinizing. It's just a game with a character and clever references and story.

Or maybe it's more subtle than I imagine. Admittedly I haven't actually played the game. But there have been games where I've stopped and thought, "this is a gender commentary". I just don't really see this being one of them.
I guess the question I need to answer is whether or not having a female character follows with gender commentary, or whether it's that the character is dressed as a male?
I don't know.
 
Really enjoyable video, gained a better appreciation of the game's ending. Probably gonna replay it again some time soon. Shame the moderation had to be so heavy handed. But I guess it is necessary in these threads :/
 

scrambles

Neo Member
I got the impression that that is why she picked the game; it's not about gender roles, the protagonist just happens to be female without the story being about that at all.



And I think this is exactly the point that she is trying to address: that you think having a female protagonist requires very specific reasons - and all the reasons you list are just about selling the game, because somehow the developers can't simply want a female protagonist. If the game had a male protagonist, you likely wouldn't even think about reasons, it's just the default, even in games where it really doesn't matter.

I'm mainly talking about reasons why the establishment would have a female protagonist. Like I said, currently there are still many in the industry that believe female leading protagonist results in lower sales. This is reinforced by buying habits. However, that is starting to change as the market grows. I personally think female or male is insignificant to whether I will buy a game.
 

scrambles

Neo Member
Even with such a simple episode, people are still misinterpreting it lol


The book isn't like some lore in a Souls game or RPG where you might check it out only if you're really into the game and discover things. You kind of have to use the book to figure out puzzles in the game. There'll be notifications to check out specific character's inner thoughts. The Scythian being female is not a twist at all, it's expressed physically too.

But right in this thread you see there are tons of people who didn't bother with the text at all.


I don't know if I'm making my point clear or not.
Why is this game a gender commentary because it has a girl as the hero? Why can't it just be 'an adventure game'?
 

red36

Neo Member
I guess put me in the camp of this spoilerific video praised a character that doesn't need a gender, much less expresses one.

I'll give another example, If anyone recalls Gremio from Suikoden. I always thought playing that game that Gremio was a woman. Not until years later with internets did I find out she was a he. To this day i prefer to think of she/he as a she because that just how i first experienced the game. With characters where their actions are gender neutral (aka sans romance) I typically don't care about their gender.

I feel this was a weak starter for what could be a good series.

Lastly, regards this game. I felt while playing it that it had great atmosphere and music. However after having beaten it, the experience felt empty. It did not feel like a heroes journey at all, which undermines her primary point.
 
The title of the video was a bit misleading. It focused on a single character, rather than characters. Although, I do hope more videos like this are produced. It has been a primary criticism of her efforts to not show both sides and this was a good start. Although, Maybe there just aren't a lot of good examples that fit her point of view to work with.
It's the name of the series. As the OP says, this video is the debut of that series.

And I think this is exactly the point that she is trying to address: that you think having a female protagonist requires very specific reasons - and all the reasons you list are just about selling the game, because somehow the developers can't simply want a female protagonist. If the game had a male protagonist, you likely wouldn't even think about reasons, it's just the default, even in games where it really doesn't matter.
To be fair, the person didn't say it requires very specific reasons to make a female protagonist, but that developers have their reasons. And while the person indeed listed only financial reasons, it's sort of true, unfortunately. Whether the reason is related to financial matters, or simply about a will to be conscious about that the protagonist can be female just fine too, there is almost always some reason. This is because the assumption that the hero is male isn't just on the player side, but it's also on the developer side. When a developer starts to create a game and thinks of the protagonist, the default gender for that hero will, very very likely, be male (this might not be true for everyone, but I strongly believe it's like that for the vast majority, because as the person you quoted said, that's how it has generally been for thousands of years in humanity's history).

This obviously doesn't mean it's a bad thing to fight that and make the conscious decision to make the character female . On the contrary, if we want to get rid of the assumption, we need to make more female characters. It will still take time, but when we get really used to it, we can get rid of the default male assumption.


My question was laughable? That is an attack, especially since my question was in good faith.

I'm reasonable, especially when I'm wrong, but what happened common courtesy?
@Dog Problems: Being a gamer does have an effect, though. I never said or implied it invalidated her opinion, either. Only enhanced it. And I'm not that one guy. I'm an interested party sharing his opinion and asking a question.

I'll just stay out of these threads. Too much tension, maybe.
Nobody called your question laughable, but the person called the word "hardcore" used with the word gamer laughable.

Honestly, no offense, I think you might be imagining some of that tension. These threads can be a bit tense sometimes because of gamergate being an actual thing and so many people ready to attack Sarkeesian or undermine her in any possible way or whoever talks about social issues in games. But really, when you look at this thread, it's fairly chill. No need to take everything so seriously.
Regardless though, it's very unfortunately that you feel this way.

Sorry I'm still a noob here and multiquotes are a little beyond my attention threshold. Please know that I fully respect your points, I'm not dismissing them or anything.

Anyway, I agree that there are gender stereotypes, and therefore we perceive the character as a male. I'm not sure that there is any problem in particular with that, though. Both men and women should both be given the same amount of respect. I just don't see that big of an issue here.

I'm not trying to say she's making a mountain out of a molehill, but I mean, I remember myself in college writing papers and making allusions to other works that probably didn't actually have a lot in common with the point of my paper despite a few transitory superficial similarities. At the time, I would agree with my professor that better examples could be made.
With this video I simply feel like this is a similar situation. It's done with earnest, but I'm not sure that this is entirely a gender stereotypes game.
When I look at the game and the character, despite being female, I have no problem with the character. I don't stop playing the game, and I even think it's perfectly normal and believable. I perhaps might just be looking at this from my own limited point of view, but I can't imagine that there'd be many other people who would take offense to this either. I certainly can't imagine anyone saying "this is silly", or "unrealistic" or anything like that because indeed like history we do have examples of courageous females, along with barbarous males, and many other tropes both positive and negative.

I think my problem with this whole commentary is that I personally don't see females unsuitable for the role, and so I find Anita's vision to be somewhat overly scrutinizing. It's just a game with a character and clever references and story.

Or maybe it's more subtle than I imagine. Admittedly I haven't actually played the game. But there have been games where I've stopped and thought, "this is a gender commentary". I just don't really see this being one of them.
I guess the question I need to answer is whether or not having a female character follows with gender commentary, or whether it's that the character is dressed as a male?
I don't know.
In itself it's not really that big a problem that there is the assumption that protagonists are male by default. However, it does quite heavily tie into multiple things in our society, that hold us back from reaching equality between genders. But that's quite a large topic and I could write an essay on it, so I won't touch it that much here (going to sleep anyway after this).

One direct problem regarding it though, is that women (and also other groups than white straight males) might and often do feel excluded because there aren't anywhere near that many good characters representing their gender, race or sexuality.

I don't think anyone would think of anything like "this is silly" when they learn that the character is female. But hopefully, it might make someone examine why they had the assumption that it was male and think about the whole subject more openly. That's (part of the reason) why the game is also gender commentary.
 
if you can figure out a way to insert qwijibo into this sentence, we will have achieved the trifecta

Only a qwijibo would think that better female representation in games is a bad thing!

What do I win? :D

"And with that, a mighty cheer went up from the heroes of Shelbyville. They had banished the awful spectre of patriarchy in video games forever, because it was haunted. Now let's all celebrate with a cool glass of turnip juice."
 

PtM

Banned
I have not played Bayonetta and only seen a few videos of it, so I could be completely off base here, but why is Bayonetta out of the question?

If we remove the hyper sexualization of the character, all references to it, and swap the character's gender, is it not the same exact game? Or, lets say we just remove the hyper sexualization; will it then pass muster?
If you remove something, of course it won't be the same game. Packaging is still part of the game.
All it takes it some time put into research to get that knowledge. I don't understand the need to question if she's really a fan of this medium. And the "hardcore" part is just silly.
There's a correlating group famous for asking others to do more research on a matter.
I'll just stay out of these threads. Too much tension, maybe.
Yes, tension there is.
You're way too sensitive if you really saw that as an attack.
No, he's not.
I'm not trying to say she's making a mountain out of a molehill, but I mean, I remember myself in college writing papers and making allusions to other works that probably didn't actually have a lot in common with the point of my paper despite a few transitory superficial similarities. At the time, I would agree with my professor that better examples could be made.
With this video I simply feel like this is a similar situation. It's done with earnest, but I'm not sure that this is entirely a gender stereotypes game.
When I look at the game and the character, despite being female, I have no problem with the character. I don't stop playing the game, and I even think it's perfectly normal and believable. I perhaps might just be looking at this from my own limited point of view, but I can't imagine that there'd be many other people who would take offense to this either. I certainly can't imagine anyone saying "this is silly", or "unrealistic" or anything like that because indeed like history we do have examples of courageous females, along with barbarous males, and many other tropes both positive and negative.

I think my problem with this whole commentary is that I personally don't see females unsuitable for the role, and so I find Anita's vision to be somewhat overly scrutinizing. It's just a game with a character and clever references and story.

Or maybe it's more subtle than I imagine. Admittedly I haven't actually played the game. But there have been games where I've stopped and thought, "this is a gender commentary". I just don't really see this being one of them.
I guess the question I need to answer is whether or not having a female character follows with gender commentary, or whether it's that the character is dressed as a male?
I don't know.
The point is not that the game is going for gender commentary, just that it is a game that happens to feature a female protagonist where it could as well be just a male one, and it doesn't make a point out of featuring a woman. That's the whole point: It can be normal to have a female protagonist.
But right in this thread you see there are tons of people who didn't bother with the text at all.


I don't know if I'm making my point clear or not.
Why is this game a gender commentary because it has a girl as the hero? Why can't it just be 'an adventure game'?
It is a gender commentary not by itself, but because of its surrounding gamescape.
Honestly, no offense, I think you might be imagining some of that tension. These threads can be a bit tense sometimes because of gamergate being an actual thing and so many people ready to attack Sarkeesian or undermine her in any possible way or whoever talks about social issues in games. But really, when you look at this thread, it's fairly chill. No need to take everything so seriously.
Regardless though, it's very unfortunately that you feel this way.
A tension is there, always. To someone who's not in the loop, it will manifest more clearly, even in this fairly chill thread. I'll readily admit I was tempted to do some civil berating of my own. Still would have been an attack.
 
The point is not that the game is going for gender commentary, just that it is a game that happens to feature a female protagonist where it could as well be just a male one, and it doesn't make a point out of featuring a woman. That's the whole point: It can be normal to have a female protagonist.

It is a gender commentary not by itself, but because of its surrounding gamescape.

Exactly!
 
D

Deleted member 20920

Unconfirmed Member
IMO this is what her videos should have been from the beginning. Showing examples of what she considers to be good examples of women in games and contrasting them point for point with bad examples shifts the tone from an attack on our medium and accusations of misogyny, to a proper constructive criticism of misrepresentation of women in games and a celebration of games that get it right.

Well done, Anita.

It's not her job to make people feel good about themselves and if you see her videos as attacks or accusations then you probably don't have a good grasp of what's she's doing or saying. Being constructive doesn't just means pointing out the good and offering suggestions. Constructive criticism also means pointing out what's bad about the medium. She's not responsible for having to provide the safety gear if you decide to fall flat on your own and hurt yourself on imagined spikes.
 
Wait, the Scythian is a girl?!

SAMUS 2.0

tumblr_mvd88vuo7H1rue9e8o1_1280.jpg

Slightly OT, but after seeing this, I took a trip to google images in search for more badass Scythian fanart. For some reason, a lot of fanartist depict her wearing shoulder-bearing attire. What's up with that?

This is the closest thing to being official promotional art of her in non-sprite form:

hib_group_jenzee_0.jpg


Nothing like what fanartists typically interpret her outfit to be like. Strange.
 

Dremark

Banned
I wonder if she'll mention the Souls games.

You can create a female character and she can be 100% as competent in terms of gameplay and story.It should count as good portrayal.

Since it's create a character IMO it really shouldn't count. In Bloodborne when creating a character it actually prints on the screen something along the lines of how gender makes no difference in skill.

Anyway, not in a position to watch the video now, will check it out later and possibly chime in after seeing it. I've been somewhat critical of her videos before but I think this is a positive direction for them.
 
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