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[DragonGirl]

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

From her "True Grit, Mattie Ross and feminism?" video:


Wanting characters to challenge gender norms but also not adopting male values is kind of at odds for me.

The problem is assuming certain behaviors are solely male values. The cultural problems we have where gender roles are concerned fall into two broad categories. One is the devaluation of traditionally female traits and roles. The other is classifying everything else as male values. Peoples positions on these subjects vary a lot. It varies a lot within feminist theory. The only advice I can give is its best to take a nuanced stance. Our cultural problems where gender is concerned are outlined by exceedingly fuzzy edges. Even where Anita's position in her videos are concerned. I agree with most everything she says and don't disagree with the rest (yes, intentional double negative) yet despite my agreeing with her, if I were to state my own perspective it would have a different slant to it, a different nuance.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

While I understand her point that the game doesn't have the 'default' male character, it's a bit disappointing to start a series on female characters off with a blank slate character, rather than one with an actual personality.

It's a silent protagonist, and yet, look at all the outrage. I guess she wanted to start the series with an uncontroversial character to have a little break. Constantly getting yelled at by idiots because you talk about entry-level feminist concepts must be incredibly tiring.

 

[Raist]

Yes, it might as well be a man, and in almost any other game, it would be a man. I don't see how using a female character without the need to "justify" it is not a positive.

Did you read my post? It's barely a character, that's the problem. So it's weird to start off the series with an example like this to argue for "good female characters".

What? "Kinda"? Do you have any quote or a timeframe, because I must have missed that part...

Oh, and general comment: Please, please, please, before complaining that the character doesn't have typically feminine traits, at least watch the video.

Well that's the entire point of the video isn't it? A good, "positive" female character. But the thing is, it's barely a character and could be replaced by pretty much anyone or anything.
And I did watch the video, thanks. The problem isn't that this character doesn't have typically feminine traits, it's that it doesn't have any traits at all.

 

[Corronchilejano]

While I understand her point that the game doesn't have the 'default' male character, it's a bit disappointing to start a series on female characters off with a blank slate character, rather than one with an actual personality. Blank slate characters are pretty uninteresting to me, and I wish developers of story-driven single-player games would avoid them.

I think it's so that she can begin making the point that good female characters don't necesarily have to be at odds with the type of story you're trying to tell, and can just be "women" without explanation. Personalities don't need to be tied to a gender, neither do faults or virtues.

 

[backlot]

Agreed. If the big positive female character trait the game has is the whole Metroid "Surprise! Your character was actually a woman this whole time!" well, that's been done before and was really only interesting the first time.

Making your game's main character a dude for no reason isn't very interesting either. It has become the default but it doesn't have to be.

 

[Kinyou]

The point is that they aren't male values. There's nothing inherently male about heroism or self-sacrifice. That we think of them as male attributes is the problem.

Yeah, but that's what I don't really get in her critique because she seems to have a definition of male values and female values.
I suppose I'm premature because her "Men with Boobs" video isn't out yet, but that one always had me scratching my head because it sets the condition that there's a clear understanding of which characteristics define a man and which a woman.

Conceptually, or in this specific instance? Because while I agree that the mythic hero archetype here has some masculine associations (pretty much entirely due to tradition, basically), conceptually the two are absolutely compatible. Challenging gender norms can be just as much about affirming the value of traditionally undervalued female norms as it can be about subverting or discarding them.

I see what you mean, I kind of didn't think broad enough and just focused on switching gender norms

 

[Nibel]

While I understand her point that the game doesn't have the 'default' male character, it's a bit disappointing to start a series on female characters off with a blank slate character, rather than one with an actual personality. Blank slate characters are pretty uninteresting to me, and I wish developers of story-driven single-player games would avoid them.

After watching the video, I agree; it seems like a 'safe' choice if that makes sense. Hope she'll pick a character with a well-elaborated personality next time; that's what is more exciting and interesting to me.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Well that's the entire point of the video isn't it? A good, "positive" female character. But the thing is, it's barely a character and could be replaced by pretty much anyone or anything.
And I did watch the video, thanks. The problem isn't that this character doesn't have typically feminine traits, it's that it doesn't have any traits at all.

It's as much of a character as Link, Cloud, Mario, Crono, Donkey Kong, etc. Just because she doesn't talk doesn' t mean she doesn't have any traits at all.

 

[Brakke]

Yeah, but that's what I don't really get in her critique because she seems to have a definition of male values and female values.
I suppose I'm premature because her "Men with Boobs" video isn't out yet, but that one always had me scratching my head because it sets the condition that there's a clear understanding of what characteristics define a man and what a woman.

But like... of course there are characteristics we generally understand as masculine and feminine? You never seen a kid scrape his knee and heard his pops tell him not to be a "sissy". You never heard "you throw like a girl"? "Man up"? "You've sure got a lot of balls"?

 

[DragonGirl]

Did you read my post? It's barely a character, that's the problem. So it's weird to start off the series with an example like this to argue for "good female characters".



Well that's the entire point of the video isn't it? A good, "positive" female character. But the thing is, it's barely a character and could be replaced by pretty much anyone or anything.
And I did watch the video, thanks. The problem isn't that this character doesn't have typically feminine traits, it's that it doesn't have any traits at all.

But is it barely a character? Character development can happen subtly, we learn a lot about a character via their actions, no dialog necessary. Look at the reaction to Other M. Fans have a very strong impression of who Samus Aran was despite her being a silent protagonist such that when Other M put forth a very specific portrayal, most people felt it was utterly out of character, despite there not being explicit character development prior. I have not played the game Anita was discussing, but she mentions subtle character portrayal via the protagonists thoughts and NPC's reactions to her, then of course there is what the protagonist does in the game. That's all information about who this person is. You don't need an anvil to figure out somebody's a blacksmith.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

But like... of course there are characteristics we generally understand as masculine and feminine? You never seen a kid scrape his knee and heard his pops tell him not to be a "sissy". You never heard "you throw like a girl"? "Man up"? "You've sure got a lot of balls"?

The fact that these stereotypes exist doesn't make them good...

 

[Gestault]

I love this recommendation, though through the lens of a Feminist Frequency editorial piece, there's a surprising amount of non gender-relations points in the video in praise of the game. I'm pretty ok with that.

Edit: Actually, scratch that, she leads nicely into how its graphic style informs the subtlety around the character's gender, and that was a big part of what I was referring to.

 

[The Technomancer]

I see what you mean, I kind of didn't think broad enough and just focused on switching gender norms

Honestly I think that's what throws a lot of people off about Anita. It goes back to the spectrum of redefinition vs reevaluation that I touched on on the last page: people are more used to the former then the latter. In that sense, Anita is more "classically" feminist, I feel, than some of her contemporaries.

 

[LSauchelli]

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

Considering that the Scythian gets weaker as you advance, I think that it breaks the archetypal male power fantasy, at the very least.

 

[Raist]

It's as much of a character as Link, Cloud, Mario, Crono, Donkey Kong, etc. Just because she doesn't talk doesn' t mean she doesn't have any traits at all.

But is it barely a character? Character development can happen subtly, we learn a lot about a character via their actions, no dialog necessary. Look at the reaction to Other M. Fans have a very strong impression of who Samus Aran was despite her being a silent protagonist such that when Other M put forth a very specific portrayal, most people felt it was utterly out of character, despite there not being explicit character development prior. I have not played the game Anita was discussing, but she mentions subtle character portrayal via the protagonists thoughts and NPC's reactions to her, then of course there is what the protagonist does in the game. That's all information about who this person is. You don't need an anvil to figure out somebody's a blacksmith.

For the record I don't think Mario, Samus, Link etc are particularly good characters either.
They're just very basic empty vessels (thus essentially neutral and a lot easier to identify with) which are purely defined by their heroic acts as opposed to fully fledged characters with a back story, a detailed personnality, etc. It's always the safer option because they are not going to be polarizing at all, and anyone disliking them would I guess be purely based on their appearance.

 

[Pyccko]

Is the Scythian technically a silent protagonist? When you examine stuff, you get first-person narrative text descriptions of things that definitely have a specific voice. I guess they do use the royal we, but it still felt to me very much like the thoughts of the specific character, not a disembodied narrator.

 

[Blakynt]

so.......I find very sad that the "referent" Anita, pick a character so blunt to exemplify the point of woman centric histories around strong female character. I don't agree with genderless characters being the rule for the future, there is plenty of nice awesome women characters to use as example, that can only be as a woman, a few examples, Red, from Transistor and Aya from Parasite Eve.

that aside it looks like a great game, I spoiled the end to my own risk, that's okey.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

so.......I find very sad that the "referent" Anita, pick a character so blunt to exemplify the point of woman centric histories around strong female character. I don't agree with genderless characters being the rule for the future, there is plenty of nice awesome women characters to use as example, that can only be as a woman, a few examples, Red, from Transistor and Aya from Parasite Eve.

that aside it looks like a great game, I spoiled the end to my own risk, that's okey.

Geez, calm down guys, nobody's imposing a single rigid definition of what female characters will/should be in the future... And it's only the first episode, there's gonna be other types of characters in the next episodes...

 

[Orochinagis]

I dont get why this is a positive female char, I mean the char is basically nothing/neutral.

Pretty much this, what an awkward choice of female protagonist. I guess she didnt wanted to start with a AAA game protagonist and save it for last.

I want to believe those yellow pixels are her boobs/chest plate?

 

[Vice]

so.......I find very sad that the "referent" Anita, pick a character so blunt to exemplify the point of woman centric histories around strong female character. I don't agree with genderless characters being the rule for the future, there is plenty of nice awesome women characters to use as example, that can only be as a woman, a few examples, Red, from Transistor and Aya from Parasite Eve.

that aside it looks like a great game, I spoiled the end to my own risk, that's okey.

That's why it's multiple videos. There are a lot of different charcters that could be highlighted. This was just one. There's more than one way to be a positive female character after all.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

But like... of course there are characteristics we generally understand as masculine and feminine? You never seen a kid scrape his knee and heard his pops tell him not to be a "sissy". You never heard "you throw like a girl"? "Man up"? "You've sure got a lot of balls"?

How exactly are they good just because they are "traditional phrases"?

 

[jackal27]

Seems like an odd first choice to me and I love Sword and Sworcery... but the gender of the main character in that game is largely irrelevant to the story in general.

Unless I'm missing some deeper context, (it's possible since the game is so incredibly vague), but Anita didn't really go over that in her video.

I think that's kind of the point? Why does her gender need to be relevant? I mean, it's cool if it is, but it's also cool that it's not. She can just be female and we can still relate to her, root for her, and project ourselves on her.

 

[Brakke]

The fact that these stereotypes exist doesn't make them good...

How exactly are they good just because they are "traditional phrases"?

Bros. I didn't call them "good". Kinyou said "she seems to have a definition of male values and female values" as though having those definitions was an invalid thing to do.

He said "that one always had me scratching my head because it sets the condition that there's a clear understanding of what characteristics define a man and what a woman". Which, fine, sure, we probably don't have a perfect consensus on manly characteristics vs womanly characteristics, there's a ton of fuzziness there. But the idea that we couldn't come up with a list of commonly masculine-associated traits is goofy.

 

[meltingparappa]

I think that's kind of the point? Why does her gender need to be relevant? I mean, it's cool if it is, but it's also cool that it's not. She can just be female and we can still relate to her, root for her, and project ourselves on her.

It's a great point, especially a change from the "male as default" trope, but if that was her sole point the video could have been all of 30 seconds long. And it feels like about 30 seconds worth of material, with the rest just her talking about how it's a gorgeous game completely unrelated to the female protagonist.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around what the majority of this video does to elucidate her point, but I know that's the silly argument of critiquing what the video isn't, instead of what the video actually is.

 

[Dice//]

Agreed. If the big positive female character trait the game has is the whole Metroid "Surprise! Your character was actually a woman this whole time!" well, that's been done before and was really only interesting the first time.

Would have been more interesting to start the series off with a female character with a strong personality like Raquel from Wild Arms 4.

(being honest, I wonder how many JRPGs are gonna make the cut, not because of the topic but because, I dunno, they're less in the forefront compared to 'bigger' titles? I do agree 1,000% that Raquel kicks ass).

Samus was great because she took on a "job" of bounty hunter, something characteristically male and surprised people by actually being a female. Samus is really no different than the Scythian in this sense, because the person (or gender) doing the work doesn't matter (you can't tell Samus is a female over the suit as much as Scyth's highly abstract form barely looks like a body let alone a specific gender). They're both positive examples of this ---- I just wonder if Samus is forfeit for the time being because of Other M and her high-heel Smash gear. (or hopefully, yet to come, or an example of doing so much then doing so little as far as female representation) [/half sarcastic]

 

[HK-47]

Pretty much this, what an awkward choice of female protagonist. I guess she didnt wanted to start with a AAA game protagonist and save it for last.

I want to believe those yellow pixels are her boobs/chest plate?

Probably because traditionally avatars and ciphers have been male. Maybe this is just her way to comment on that.

 

[Kinyou]

Bros. I didn't call them "good". Kinyou said "she seems to have a definition of male values and female values" as though having those definitions was an invalid thing to do.

He said "that one always had me scratching my head because it sets the condition that there's a clear understanding of what characteristics define a man and what a woman". Which, fine, sure, we probably don't have a perfect consensus on manly characteristics vs womanly characteristics, there's a ton of fuzziness there. But the idea that we couldn't come up with a list of commonly masculine-associated traits is goofy.

For me it conflicts with most of what I heard of feminist theory which seems to regard many gender characteristics as gender neutral.

 

[Jumplion]

Honestly I think that's what throws a lot of people off about Anita. It goes back to the spectrum of redefinition vs reevaluation that I touched on on the last page: people are more used to the former then the latter. In that sense, Anita is more "classically" feminist, I feel, than some of her contemporaries.

This video of her at the Syndey Opera House details her views on feminism a bit more. You're right, she does seem to identify more on the reevaluation side, and it's something I've been thinking about for a good long while as I've learned more and more about these sorts of issues. It's a lot of "individual vs. collective" that, while not necessarily conflicting, does tend to make people conflict anyway with how to approach these sorts of issues.

 

[Gestault]

I dont get why this is a positive female char, I mean the char is basically nothing/neutral.

Since a big part of her outlook is that poor representations of women alienate audiences who would otherwise enjoy video-games, I'll have to disagree. The choice makes perfect sense in that regard. I do think some of her points in celebration of the Scythian imply the idea that a male avatar is itself exclusionary (it's subtle, but I think a fair subtext to question), but that's a different string of thought, and not even a reaction to an outright point she makes.

 

[Brakke]

For me it conflicts with most of what I heard of feminist theory which regards most gender characteristics as gender neutral.

There's a difference between believing that characteristics are and should be seen as gender agnostic and recognizing that most people don't believe that. Anita holds both of those ideas, they aren't in conflict.

The reason people say they want to reject or combat or foil gender roles is that they recognize that gender roles are thoroughly established in our society.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Well, I wasn't expecting that!

Seemed to be more about the game than the character, which, rather than being a strong, well written woman, came across as more generic and inoffensive than anything.

Still, she sold the game itself very well, even if it does end in the clichéd, unsatisfying self-sacrificing hero trope, it sounds incredibly interesting up until that shitty ending.

Overall a good video, and nice departure from her usual work. Definitely looking forward to more.

 

[Kinyou]

There's a difference between believing that characteristics are and should be seen as gender agnostic and recognizing that most people don't believe that. Anita holds both of those ideas, they aren't in conflict.

The reason people say they want to reject or combat or foil gender roles is that they recognize that gender roles are thoroughly established in our society.

The difference is between recognizing that these definitions established by society exist, and critiquing a character under them which the title "Men with boobs" suggests.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

The Scythian has long been one of my favorite female characters in video games. In many ways she was like Samus. A pixelated character who's gender was meaningless. Maybe she is less 'threatening' as a protagonist because her gender plays so little into the story. I'll deffinately watch this video when I have time.

 

[thewhitehawk]

I enjoyed the video and I think she made good points about how characters should be portrayed. I don't think those traits should be male or female exclusive but I agree with her that regardless of gender it is a departure from the usual traits that adventure hero characters tend to have.

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

This is an excellent example of getting it right.

Would like more content like this. More interesting to talk about when videogames get it right, because it's rare.

 

[cj_iwakura]

A little disappointed this wasn't the entire piece on PFCs. Oh well.

Jade's obviously up next. Looks like Faith and the Life is Strange characters will get a nod, too.

 

[pakkit]

I think Anita's choice for blank slate character makes sense because so many of our favorite iconic heroes from the past are blank slates (e.g. Link, Mario, Gordon Freeman, Master Chief). We just see them as masculine and heroic and conflate the two. With the Scythian, that trope is denied. Everyone can be a hero.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Does anyone else feel like Anita's script and delivery have gotten flatter and duller with every video in this series? You can see precisely how guarded now feels she has to be, and it's a shame.

Edit: at least she gets fairly animated during the spoiler warning part

 

[John Rabbit]

Does anyone else feel like Anita's script and delivery have gotten flatter and duller with every video in this series? You can see precisely how guarded now feels she has to be, and it's a shame.

regarding my post above, maybe this is what's bothering me about this video in particular. it feels very much like playing toward the middle, which in a series that is ostensibly about projecting an opinion (and namely, an opinion that is not widely regarded or held) is sort of self-defeating.

again i understand the need to provide context to an argument, and to refrain from seeming like you're just raging about a particular idea/concept/position, but the original Tropes videos were hardly inflammatory to begin with; more that the reaction they got made them seem that way.

it's a shame.

 

[GeoGonzo]

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

From her "True Grit, Mattie Ross and feminism?" video:


Wanting characters to challenge gender norms but also not adopting male values is kind of at odds for me.

Eh, not sure about that. As Anita said in that very same quote:

The feminism I subscribe to and work for involves more than women and our fictional representations simply acting like men or unquestioningly replicating archetypal male values such being emotionally inexpressive, the need for domination and competition, and the using violence as a form of conflict resolution.

Having traits like the ones she mentions doesn't disqualify a female character from being a good female character, as long as she has them for a reason or as long as she's more than that.

Also, you quoted the three lines but bolded only two, maybe noticing that "the need for domination and competition" didn't quite fit the Scythian. It is a trait in complete opposition with what she does

Spoiler

specially taking into account how the whole quest is about literally sacrificing herself to selflessly defeat an ancient evil.

And what about the other two traits? Personally I don't even agree with those that much. The Scythian is stoic, but she does have some thoughts and shows some emotions, even in a game with such a minimalistic style

Spoiler

like her doubts after defeating the bear ("Slay?" No, fuck no. Put that sword down, girl).

. And "using violence as a form of conflict resolution" doesn't completely fit either! I'm fairly sure that Anita didn't mean "Not fight anything, ever" but using violence when other options could have worked too. There's not much fighting in S&S, and it never fills gratituous.

Spoiler

In fact, I don't think you actually -fight- against the final boss, but I may be misremembering.

 

[timshundo]

It's funny to hear everyone saying that they don't understand how the scythian going on this quest and

Spoiler

sacrificing herself to save the world

isn't a strong female character. IF you need to, play the game again. She has as much personality and character as the silent Link does. She doesn't need to be cutting off dicks and stomping out chauvinism to be a strong female. All she needs to do is be as much of a hero as any man can.

 

[JackDT]

Love that she started off the series with an oddball pick like Sword and Sworcery. Suggests good things for the future, looking past some obvious choices and showcasing some really cool games.

Let's get Crypt of the Necrodancer next!

 

[Brakke]

The difference is between recognizing that these definitions established by society exist, and critiquing a character under them which the title "Men with boobs" suggests.

Eh. She hasn't actually made that series so there's not much we can say. But if you're going to take up as your subject a class of media produced by, marketed to (and by), and experienced by people who all have the same common understanding of gender roles, then it seems natural to take up their vocabulary.

If her claim is going to be "gender roles as broadly constructed are a bummer", then of course she's going to need to establish the premise that gender roles are broadly constructed . First show "this is a thing worth considering", then consider it.

 

[levious]

Hope they do a video on Primal.

 

[Riposte]

I don't understand, the Scythian is barely a character, it's a nothing.

The game's hipster dialogue was so bad it hurt, so that's memorable as a character trait.

 

[QuickSilverD]

Well, this certainly is not what I was expecting

 

[Stilton Disco]

It's funny to hear everyone saying that they don't understand how the scythian going on this quest and

Spoiler

sacrificing herself to save the world

isn't a strong female character. IF you need to, play the game again. She has as much personality and character as the silent Link does. She doesn't need to be cutting off dicks and stomping out chauvinism to be a strong female. All she needs to do is be as much of a hero as any man can.

So none whatsoever. Gotcha.

 

[Illucio]

Normally I always have a complaint of some kind with her videos, but she did a excellent job with this video. With a great silent protagonist to demonstrate what we should be looking for in a main female protagonist.

Im still worried about myself when she begins talking about other video game characters that aren't a silent type...

 

[Wensih]

Great point and good game, looking forward to more of the positive female character videos.

 

[jett]

The game's hipster dialogue was so bad it hurt, so that's memorable as a character trait.

On the whole, this game was kinda meh. It guess it worked better as a cell phone when it was at the time surrounded by abject garbage.