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PS4's AF issue we need answers!

RexNovis

Banned
The game might look good in movement.

But hell, this is flat out atrocious on that screen.

It was uploaded by PBS meaning it was likely taken via the share button and then uploaded twitter. That means it was compressed twice. I wouldn't judge the game based off a double compressed screencap. This is as close as we have to lossless screencap (likely a compressed image captured via share button then uploaded to abload w/o any further compression) in this thread

7s3nqpjxnobg.jpg


and while its far from perfect it obviously looks a LOT better than that twice compressed image would imply.
 

Lamneth

Banned
It was uploaded by PBS meaning it was likely taken via the share button and then uploaded twitter. That means it was compressed twice. I wouldn't judge the game based off a double compressed screencap. This is as close as we have to lossless screencap (likely a compressed image captured via share button then uploaded to abload w/o any further compression) in this thread

http://abload.de/img/7s3nqpjxnobg.jpg[/IM]

and while its far from perfect it obviously looks a LOT better than that twice compressed image would imply.[/QUOTE]

Shame about the CA
 

Mahonay

Banned
Ignorance is bliss. I'm so happy I am blind to these issues.
Bad AA sticks out to me no matter what and it's the worst. I play a lot of BF4 and there's always a part of me that's just staring at the sea of jaggies laid out before me.

Chromatic aberration is the new one for me (which BF4 also has cranked up), I have trouble not noticing when it's there, but it doesn't distract me in the way bad AA does.

Bloodborne looks 100 percent fine, the IQ in those screens is not perfect but I don't care when the game looks phenomenal in motion. As long as it runs better than Dark Souls did on my 360 I'm pretty much happy.

And the new version of the screen that was just posted above me does seem to look better at first glance.
 

dan2026

Member
From Software have always had dodgy graphics, framerates, pc versions etc etc.
This has been the case ever since Demon Souls.
They get by on the great gameplay.

Bloodborne seems like the most polished of all of thm to be fair.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
From Software have always had dodgy graphics, framerates, pc versions etc etc.
This has been the case ever since Demon Souls.

Bloodborne seems like the most polished of all of thm to be fair.
Yep

The AA and performance in Bloodborne is substantially improved from early builds too. It's still not what I would expect visually from most PS4 exclusives but it seems like a good effort given From's technical history.
 

Mahonay

Banned
From Software have always had dodgy graphics, framerates, pc versions etc etc.
This has been the case ever since Demon Souls.
They get by on the great gameplay.

Bloodborne seems like the most polished of all of thm to be fair.
Yep

The AA and performance in Bloodborne is substantially improved from early builds too. It's still not what I would expect visually from most PS4 exclusives but it seems like a good effort given From's technical history.
Agreed. On the technical side Bloodborne surpasses what I usually expect to get from a FromSoftware game.
 

Newboi

Member
I personally think Bloodborne looks fantastic visually, but most of that has to do with the design aesthetic rather than pure graphical fidelity.

Wasn't this originally supposed to be a PS3? Wasn't the leaked teaser footage from two years ago on the PS3? Not to say this looks like a PS3 game on the least bit, but this might explain why this title isn't displaying the most cutting edge visuals. Either way, DAT cloth physics though...

Wait! I just realized this game comes out tomorrow!!! UPS better not miss up my shipment this time!
 

d9b

Banned
Considering it as a defect sounds so negative. ;) Basically, it's not a defect
at all, its driven by the laws of nature. There is no perfect lens. As a side
note; we even experience chromatic aberration effects in an electromagnetic
lens (electron optics) despite there is no light at all.


I think we first should agree that no game is realistic to begin with. If you
consider games to be realistic you will always fall in this trap of yours.
Secondly, one needs to understand that visuals in games are not supposed to
match reality. The primary artistic focus lies on building graphics which
fits a given/intended aesthetic to convey a given atmosphere. This may result
in using techniques which do not find any counterpart in the real world or
only to a very less extend. It's not about reality, it's about whether the
graphics fits the aesthetic/atmosphere the game should convey. However, it may
happen that some of those effects may perhaps be too pronounced, which is the
job of the Quality Assurance (QA) to find out. So you may find CA in games
where there is no lens at all, which is complete legit from an artistic point
of view. You have to respect the visual art of the game if the artist and the
QA team agrees upon the given effects serving the atmosphere of the game. Not
everybody likes Picasso's line-drawings. In that case just pass on and let
others enjoy being exposed to such art/graphics.

Well, I agree with you that many of the effect are overused now and then like
lense flares and bloom back in the days. However, putting such effect at the
right place may add to the atmosphere no matter whether if the game was
supposed to be realistic or not. Being realistic is almost always not the
point in making video games (even if it looks so from the outside). It's not.
It's about creating a believable (not supposed realistic) aesthetic which
conveys the intend of the creator(s).

Look at the game Ghost Song (in the making) by one of our follow indie game
developers (i.e. Jobbs) over here at gaf;

KeenFantasticHuia.gif


This game uses some heavy CA in some places. So where is the lens? There is
non. And it's not needed. It's the choice of the artist using whatever fits
his/her vision. And if anyone doesn't like it, we will come full circle with
Picasso again.


Many of the modern video effect filters utilized for professional video
reproduction for movies (simulating video within the movie) are in need of
such effects. Sure 'a sane individual' would want RGB out, but this doesn't
say that such effects are of no use esp. not when being considered for
artistic work. A modern video game may use such effects at some places because
the artist may want to mimic sort of an old/analog video effect or want to
use it solely to make his/her style a bit different for conveying his/her
vision much better. There nothing wrong doing so. And yet some people won't
like such effects solely because they think it not realistic. I think those
people will miss the point entirely.

I'm all for realistic rendering whatsoever. But graphics for video games are
mainly artistically driven and not by reality (even if it looks so from the
outside). You say the effects (in this case CA with respect to the game in
question) is not realistic, but show me one artist who said that this or that
effect was supposed to be a realistic one. You will get a pretty different
answer why such effects where used at all.

I think it's useless to tell an artist what (s)he should use or not to draw
his/her graphics. I don't want that. I want to play and experience the game
like the artist has intended me to do. I want to see his/her vision, not my
one. Well, this doesn't mean I would like all styles, no, but I will respect
the artist for his/her vision even if it's not my game.

If you are interested, then head over to the old indie game dev thread here at
gaf. There was a strong discussion about using CA or not. If you follow along
the lines, you will see how a more technical person looks at CA and how an
artist (Jobbs) looks at CA.

Quoted for awesomeness. Great post!
 

drotahorror

Member
I personally think Bloodborne looks fantastic visually, but most of that has to do with the design aesthetic rather than pure graphical fidelity.

Wasn't this originally supposed to be a PS3? Wasn't the leaked teaser footage from two years ago on the PS3? Not to say this looks like a PS3 game on the least bit, but this might explain why this title isn't displaying the most cutting edge visuals. Either way, DAT cloth physics though...

Wait! I just realized this game comes out tomorrow!!! UPS better not miss up my shipment this time!

I'm fairly certain this game was never supposed to be nor rumored to be on PS3.
 

deoee

Member
The game might look good in movement.

But hell, this is flat out atrocious on that screen.

It's not nearly as blurry as the screen shows :D
I don't know what causes that effect.. is it the CA?

EDIT:

I will take some screens now and upload them via my usb stick, directly from the ps4 :D
Give me some minutes!
 

RexNovis

Banned

Imgur heavily compresses images. Set up a Flickr or Abload.de account and upload them there. Both are free and do not compress uploaded images so long as they are less than 30mb a piece which all screencaps in PS4 are due to minor compression when using the share button function. The only way to capture 100% lossless is to do so via a capture card. Just a friendly heads up for future reference.
 

deoee

Member
That was fast! Huge difference in the quality of the images as I'm sure you can tell :)

Looks great to me! This one in particular

bloodborne_20150323174xl3m.jpg


Thanks for sharing!

Yes it's noticeable.

Did not know that imgur compresses that much.

Game looks great, yeah :)

Edit: For me it looks like there's AF to some degree. What do you say? Does this help in this thread? :D
 

SeanTSC

Member
People having a shitfit over super compressed JPGs and saying the game has poor image quality based on them is so ridiculous. I like to look at good direct captures of a game before totally losing my shit.
 

Durante

Member
It's true that the IQ in those Bloodborne shots is just mediocre though. Lack of AF (which is what makes it relevant to this thread in the first place I guess), blurry post-AA, and that overdone CA on top of everything. The game still looks good because its art is good.
 
People having a shitfit over super compressed JPGs and saying the game has poor image quality based on them is so ridiculous. I like to look at good direct captures of a game before totally losing my shit.

It is a shame sony makes it so hard / impossible to have proper direct captured pngs.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
When did an ps4 AF thread become a bloodborne visual quality thread?

From what I can tell it doesn't have any AF issues.
 

deoee

Member
When did an ps4 AF thread become a bloodborne visual quality thread?

From what I can tell it doesn't have any AF issues.

I did most of those screens in angles so you can see stretched and tiled textures to look for AF issues - but I do not see any (big) issues beside the CA.
 

RexNovis

Banned
It's true that the IQ in those Bloodborne shots is just mediocre though. Lack of AF (which is what makes it relevant to this thread in the first place I guess), blurry post-AA, and that overdone CA on top of everything. The game still looks good because its art is good.

That less compressed image I linked above seems to have excellent AF. At least to my eyes. Maybe I just don't notice the drop off.
 

Durante

Member
When did an ps4 AF thread become a bloodborne visual quality thread?

From what I can tell it doesn't have any AF issues.
If you look at the floor in this:
http://abload.de/img/bloodborne_20150323175al24.jpg
or the distant ground in this:
http://abload.de/img/bloodborne_2015032316fiy0z.jpg

I'd guess the game uses 4xAF at best. Most of the shots are pretty bad for AF analysis because the angle of the ground is not steep enough.

That less compressed image I linked above seems to have excellent AF. At least to my eyes. Maybe I just don't notice the drop off.
See above. The floor isn't at a good angle for AF analysis in the vast majority of the shots (especially all of those which contain cobblestone).
 

deoee

Member
If you look at the floor in this:
http://abload.de/img/bloodborne_20150323175al24.jpg
or the distant ground in this:
http://abload.de/img/bloodborne_2015032316fiy0z.jpg

I'd guess the game uses 4xAF at best. Most of the shots are pretty bad for AF analysis because the angle of the ground is not steep enough.

See above. The floor isn't at a good angle for AF analysis in the vast majority of the shots (especially all of those which contain cobblestone).

Should I do more with a higher angle?
Thought that would be ok (especially this one http://abload.de/image.php?img=bloodborne_20150323163oa6o.jpg)
 

-griffy-

Banned
Is there a version of Bloodborne on another platform to compare it to so we can determine the level of AF is lower than it should be?

Posting exclusive PS4 games in this thread furthers this weird narrative that the PS4 specifically has an overall problem with AF that is unique to that platform, when the reality is most games on both platforms have bad AF. Is the issue when PS4 games are weirdly missing an effect that's present in XBO versions, or is it that console games on all platforms typically had and continue to have bad AF?

If people are going to complain about Bloodborne, than where's the thread for complaining about all the crappy AF in XBO and WiiU games? Cause I'm all for a larger conversation to get developers to focus more on AF in general, as it would only improve the IQ of more games (while we're at it let's try to get devs to eliminate or use a far more subtle and realistic form of CA). I'm just not sure if that's what this thread is for.

WOW the AF this one is strong, looks like 16xAF to me.

You can't accurately judge AF in this pic, the angle isn't right to show it. It needs to be a lower angle with the plane stretching away from the camera, not a high angle looking down on the texture.
 

Durante

Member
Should I do more with a higher angle?
Thought that would be ok (especially this one http://abload.de/image.php?img=bloodborne_20150323163oa6o.jpg)
The ideal shot for judging AF would be something like the first one I linked to (this) in terms of angle (a bit less steep is also fine), but with the ground visible, using a single texture, and stretching to the full distance.

If people are going to complain about Bloodborne, than where's the thread for complaining about all the crappy AF in XBO and WiiU games? Cause I'm all for a larger conversation to get developers to focus more on AF in general, as it would only improve the IQ of more games (while we're at it let's try to get devs to eliminate or use a far more subtle and realistic form of CA). I'm just not sure if that's what this thread is for.
I also agree with this though, Bloodborne is a bit OT for the particular issue discussed in this thread. I also agree that campaigning for better AF on consoles is always good though, I've been trying to do it since the 360 was released basically :p
 

-griffy-

Banned
I also agree with this though, Bloodborne is a bit OT for the particular issue discussed in this thread. I also agree that campaigning for better AF on consoles is always good though, I've been trying to do it since the 360 was released basically :p

Same with me! I really thought when PS3/360 came out we would be done with AF issues on consoles, especially since texture filtering is something I learned about when messing with my first video card and the first Half Life!
 

unsightly

Member
Wait wait wait, multi-platform titles are optimized for the lowest common denominator?? Breaking news!

in all seriousness, this should not be surprising. Not sure where OP gets off claiming this is a PS4 issue WRT AF, nor am I gonna read 11 pages debating it. Sure as hell posting a snarky comment deep in the thread, though.
 
Not sure where OP gets off claiming this is a PS4 issue WRT AF, nor am I gonna read 11 pages debating it. Sure as hell posting a snarky comment deep in the thread, though.

So you are going to ignore all of everything in this thread and just drive by post denouncing the entire thing?

Um...
 

Durante

Member
Same with me! I really thought when PS3/360 came out we would be done with AF issues on consoles, especially since texture filtering is something I learned about when messing with my first video card and the first Half Life!
I'm in the exact same boat. First I thought we'd be done with shitty AF with PS3 and 360 (before those were released). Then I gradually came to the realization that that was a bust, but I was convinced that on PS4 in particular, with its bandwidth and TMUs, everything would finally run at least 8xAF. Shows what I know.
 

Noobcraft

Member
I'm in the exact same boat. First I thought we'd be done with shitty AF with PS3 and 360 (before those were released). Then I gradually came to the realization that that was a bust, but I was convinced that on PS4 in particular, with its bandwidth and TMUs, everything would finally run at least 8xAF. Shows what I know.
screenshot-original8y8a83.png

This is 8X right? (Forza Horizon 2)

And this is 2-4x? (Forza 5)
tue_mar_17_19-45-03_m46qed.png
 

-griffy-

Banned
This is 8X right?

And this is 2-4x?


First pic looks more like 4x to me, maybe lower even, specular on the road surface makes it a bit hard to tell in that specific shot (8x would be considerably more detail in the distance though), second one is hard to tell because of the motion blur but probably around 2x or 4x.

EDIT: Honestly it's hard to eyeball the difference between 4x to bilinear without direct comparisons at this point, since I'm so used to either 16x in all my PC games, or noticeably low AF on my console games. I may be overestimating most console games as having 4x or so when they are actually using something lower.
 

Conduit

Banned
Maybe Sony will gave us to choose .png format via OFW, until then, i will use capture card for taking screenshots ( Extremecap U3 ).
 

benzy

Member
Huh, that shot has more AF than I remember the game having. I remember it having around 4X, like in these shots:

screenshot-originalj8rrn.png


Y7USzmq.png


Not calling you a liar or anything, haha, but maybe the game uses variable AF?

I think that's just due to the camera positions. AF in Noob's shot looks 4x, same as DC's.

dwbyns.jpg
 
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