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[excelsiorlef]

I'm sorry if I came off rude in my question.

I feel as though some action could be taken against individuals who dress in a racial offensive manner. (Individuals who wear black face for example.)

But I don't agree that people should be called, and the potentially offending individual or party should be escorted anywhere. Rather I think we should tell students to document the incident, and report it so careful action could be taken.

I'm not even suggesting having people look for it. Merely that were such rules put in place (which was never actually on the table at Yale) that a simple enforcement would be change or leave. Which is hardly oppression.

 

[Dude Abides]

How is being told to leave somewhere an arrest?

That isn't what you said. You said escort off campus and I made clear that's what I was referring to. Pretty shameless backpedal.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I guess whether or not you see dressing up as a member of a race as a discussion starter is the core of how you feel about the school's letter and the professor's. I don't personally feel like I'd be losing out by being encouraged not to mock others but I can see how some people do.

I think you misunderstood the point...maybe I did.

The point was that we shouldn't prohibit, banish, or censor expression. We should let that expression occur and when it does (every year mind you, cause it does) we should use it as a teachable moment. No?

 

[Piecake]

Look, you can't stand up for yourself when literally everyone else is against you. Sometimes as a society, we decide that there are certain ways a person should not be treated without consequence on the actor. If a gang of 5 people jump you and beat you down, the law is hopefully there to help the one person who's being beaten. It's like the gay community vs. bakery controversy. It's fine and all to say that the owner of a business should be able to sell to whatever costumer they want, but when every single bakery is owned by people who refuse to serve a certain group of people, the person not in that group is shit out of luck and no matter how much they try to talk others into letting them in, the bakeries have no real reason to change; they still have the majority to serve after all. This was commonplace for blacks before the civil rights movement and the only thing that changed it was by authority coming in and changing it. This would be the same with these costumes. If there's a major problem on campus, which some students think there is, there simply isn't the manpower for these people to when a war of ideology, and instead get to pay for it with anxiety and shame.

Yale has a student body of 12,000+ people. Of that, we have a few hundred people protesting that their treatment at the university has been unfair and that they need help feeling safe and accepted because they simply can't do it on their own. They've tried for years, if not decades and haven't had much progress. They're sick and tired of it and having a teacher say "go talk it out, I'm sure they'll come around" isn't helping anything and is demeaning. It's a little like telling a depressed person that if they just tried being happy more often they wouldn't be depressed. It misses the point and just gives one more example of how the faculty is out of touch with the students who are demanding change. That she faced a large backlash is hardly surprising and the fact that she responded by saying "you guys are just too entitled" and left really says something about her character. When things got hard for her position, instead of fight for it like she told other people to do, she left with her fingers in her ears and created a lot of passive aggressive people who turned it around by stating the students are the ones who couldn't handle things and are too sensitive when they're still there fighting for change.

A few hundred protesters in a University of 12k is not an indication that a vast majority disagree with or are apathetic to the protesters's position. Only a small minority of people actually go out and protest issues. That is true for basically every issue.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

No one here is saying that what they did to her is cool. Her email is more nuanced than your interpretation as well. She never insinuated something of value is lost by stamping out bad ideas in a top down fashion. She isn't going to sit down and say "oh it's bad that we have anti hate speech laws or we shouldn't have forced service to minorities top down". She said that as a faculty of higher education we should allow students to discuss these issues instead of defining it themselves. This is further supported by her comment that when you see a costume you don't like you should talk to the person about it and have a discussion. That is genuinely different from your point.

The Mulan costume on a child is honestly not a grey area. Whether it's right or wrong for a child wanting to do it i irrelevant. If something is wrong, just because a child does not grasp "why" does not suddenly make it grey. The debate is whether or not the costume is offensive, that's all there is to it. And it's also really obnoxious to say raising a stink about it facile. The world minorities live in is one where day after day they have to put u with diet racism bullshit all the time. Wrong assumptions, negative stereotypes that are constantly reinforced and normalized when they don't stand up to shit exactly like this. If you do not feel it's a big deal, its entirely fine but you are basically saying "its not progressive to be babies" and my response to that is, "I'm not being a baby for asking people to not where a historically shitty costume, you are being a brat for fighting tooth and nail to be douche".

If you don't wanna live in America over these issues, meh your version is pretty shitty to me.

1) Reread the latter part of her email. It specifically says that universities have morphed from places where transgressive impulses find freedom of expression to places of prohibition and censure, and asks students to reconsider substituting individual agency for institutional agency. The context she's writing about is a university, yes, but the point is easily and immediately generalizeable to a broader context, and most will do so.

2) The Mulan costume is absolutely a gray area, both because we do hold children to a different standard than adults and because a Mulan costume doesn't necessarily imply yellow makeup and taping one's eyes into a slant.

3) I didn't remotely say that taking offense to things makes one a baby, I said that there is a gray area in which offense is the more facile response than simply letting something pass. This is a big difference.

So what does a student do when they ask someone to be more culturally sensitive and people keep screaming at them for being a 'pussy' or a 'whiner'? Quit school and go back home? She's a professor from an elite university that got a recommendation when she quit. She can go anywhere she wants.



The only thing that happened to this lady is that people protested her. Yes, people said nasty things, many probably unwarrented, but she even had colleagues who backed her and the university itself seemed fine with her. She was the one who decided to leave because she couldn't take the heat for her own poorly thought out argument.

Second, these aren't children in Mulan costumes but young-adults choosing to perpetuate hateful ideology. She decided to take mostly reasonable requests by students and trivialize struggles they've had to face their whole lives by boiling it down to 'figure it out yourselves' despite the fact that's exactly what they're trying to do through said requests and calls for awareness.


This was already discussed earlier. Her e-mail was directly in response to costumes including blackface which is what that article is implying.

Dozens of students surrounded her husband and demanded an apology of him, refused to let him leave without offering one, and snapped their fingers as an asshole cursed him out and wished ill on him, and the university not only did not even utter a word against this kind of behavior, it trotted HIM out for a token public apology for doing absolutely nothing.

Not to mention an active student group made her firing or resignation from her Associate Master post one of their top priorities, and she became a rallying point for dozens and dozens of grievances neither she nor her email have anything to do with. Her efficacy as a teacher was basically shot. Protests are one thing. These people were assholes, and minorities having legitimate grievances doesn't make this particular series of behaviors by a group consisting of minorities any less assholish.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I think you misunderstood the point...maybe I did.

The point was that we shouldn't prohibit, banish, or censor expression. We should let that expression occur and when it does (every year mind you, cause it does) we should use it as a teachable moment. No?

There have been and will continue to be lots of these teachable moments lol

As someone else said, the school hasn't actually prohibited anything. There may be some students who are still interested in trying to teach the kind of person who would wear a blackface costume why it's messed up, and kudos to them for their patience and faith in good. That said, there are also students who are frustrated by the knowledge that nothing will really change for the better, and as such aren't interested in trying to teach.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That isn't what you said. You said escort off campus and I made clear that's what I was referring to. Pretty shameless backpedal.

Lol being escorted off campus is no an arrest. Just like being kicked out of a bar is not an arrest.

The escorting would only happen if the person refused to leave and or was found later still there.

Eirher way still not an arrest.


Also not even remotely what is on the table at Yale.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Offensive costumes and disparaging remarks amoung adults are equivalent to universal suffrage and equal rights with institutional actors?

No, but it's a piece of the puzzle and sometimes small things are all it takes to break the camel's back.

Flip it around. Something as small as asking people to be aware of what costumes they wear on Halloween was met by the faculty with a call for people to deal with the problem on their own, which is basically all these students have heard for years despite growing concerns. It's like having your boss tell you to deal with the coworker who won't stop calling you a racially offensive term every day by telling him he's a meanie.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

The school hadn't prohibited anything, but it's not hard to read something like that, see how many officials signed off on it, and infer that either has something like the force of authority or that things are probably shifting in that direction. The email specifically mentions that several students complained to her about the initial mass email, presumably not because they desired to don blackface but because they resented the paternalistic administrative encroachment.

 

[Dude Abides]

Lol being escorted off campus is no an arrest. Just like being kicked out of a bar is not an arrest.

The escorting would only happen if the person refused to leave and or was found later still there.

Eirher way still not an arrest.


Also not even remotely what is on the table at Yale.

Being forceful detained and removed from an area you have a right to be in by police against your will is an arrest. Sorry.

I don't have a problem with the Yale letter. I do have a problem with people who think universities should be in the business of disciplining students for Halloween costumes, or which your wished-for Halloween Vice Squad was the most absurd example.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

There have been and will continue to be lots of these teachable moments lol

As someone else said, the school hasn't actually prohibited anything. There may be some students who are still interested in trying to teach the kind of person who would wear a blackface costume why it's messed up, and kudos to them for their patience and faith in good. That said, there are also students who are frustrated by the knowledge that nothing will really change for the better, and as such aren't interested in trying to teach.

So the answer is, as a means of caution and protection; push for the censorship of expression in an effort to promote universal safety. Am I misunderstanding or framing this incorrectly?

The school hadn't prohibited anything, but it's not hard to read something like that, see how many officials signed off on it, and infer that either has something like the force of authority or that things are probably shifting in that direction. The email specifically mentions that several students complained to her about the initial mass email, presumably not because they desired to don blackface but because they resented the paternalistic administrative encroachment.

Nod.

 

[Thaedolus]

Disappointing outcome, but not as disappointing as some of the replies in this thread applauding it or saying she got what she deserved. Goddamn people. Even if you disagree with their (entirely reasonable IMO) counter points, the response to it was so fucking overblown I can't even begin to express. Even if you think the e-mail was in the wrong, I cannot for one second believe the student response was anywhere near appropriate or warranted in the mind of any rational person.

God. Fuck this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Being forceful detained and removed from an area you have a right to be in by police against your will is an arrest. Sorry.

I don't have a problem with the Yale letter. I do have a problem with people who think universities should be in the business of disciplining students for Halloween costumes, or which your wished-for Halloween Vice Squad was the most absurd example.

Who is being detained? They aren't being locked up they are being walked off campus. This is fundamentally not being arrested. Is someone who is kicked out of a bar forcibly detained? Yeah no. It's also the complete last resort in this situation l.

Notice I haven't even said this should be policy? Just merely that if it were it's easy to enforce and not apocalyptic.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Dozens of students surrounded her husband... (snip).

Obviously it's gross, but at the same time, this is what the administrators have pushed these students to. It's nice and all to say that everyone should have a civil conversation but the administration has been shown to pay no attention to it. Remember again that these problems have been going on for decades. It's like a suggestion box that goes straight into the trash can.

So the answer is, as a means of caution and protection; push for the censorship of expression in an effort to promote universal safety. Am I misunderstanding or framing this incorrectly?

Insert harmful expression and promotion of universal safety and health (mental and otherwise). It's like telling people not to smoke in closed spaces. Their actions are literally contributing to a public detriment.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So the answer is, as a means of caution and protection; push for the censorship of expression in an effort to promote universal safety. Am I misunderstanding or framing this incorrectly?



Nod.

What? No.

That letter was encouraging people not to wear potentially problematic costumes, including ones that might impair breathing. If anything this seems to be out of a desire for the university to cover their own asses wrt drunk students on Halloween. That would probably include any encounters that arise out of blackface costumes or similar expressions. There was no censorship, regardless of how people chose to feel.

I don't see the inherent value of racial costumes as forms of expression or attempts to build dialogues, so I don't really get the offense toward the university's letter. If people feel like minorities should be confronted with things that offend them on a daily basis to build character, well they kind of have to do that anyway. If this is about something loftier then responses should probably deal with that instead of zeroing in on the unfairness of not being able to insult someone with a costume.

 

[Dude Abides]

Who is being detained? They aren't being locked up they are being walked off campus. This is fundamentally not being arrested. Is someone who is kicked out of a bar forcibly detained? Yeah no. It's also the complete last resort in this situation l.

Notice I haven't even said this should be policy? Just merely that if it were it's easy to enforce and not apocalyptic.

You don't know what you're talkin about, apparently can't distinguish between a college campus (many of which are public) and a bar and you said your Halloween Costume SWAT Team would be a step in the right direction, contra your current attempt to pretend you weren't advocating it. I mean, your words are right on the page. I'm having a hard time seeing why I should discuss this with you if you're going to be this disingenuous. Is it really that hard to say "yeah, on reflection, that's actually kind of a bad idea"?

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Disappointing outcome, but not as disappointing as some of the replies in this thread applauding it or saying she got what she deserved. Goddamn people. Even if you disagree with their (entirely reasonable IMO) counter points, the response to it was so fucking overblown I can't even begin to express. Even if you think the e-mail was in the wrong, I cannot for one second believe the student response was anywhere near appropriate or warranted in the mind of any rational person.

God. Fuck this.

This reads almost exactly like some of the posts I've seen in the riot threads. Decades of systemic oppression and you're surprised that people become enraged when nothing changes? You've never had a really bad day and gotten overly frustrated when someone cut you off in traffic? This is practically the same thing, but on a much larger scale.

 

[...Scatter...]

No, but it's a piece of the puzzle and sometimes small things are all it takes to break the camel's back.

Flip it around. Something as small as asking people to be aware of what costumes they wear on Halloween was met by the faculty with a call for people to deal with the problem on their own, which is basically all these students have heard for years despite growing concerns. It's like having your boss tell you to deal with the coworker who won't stop calling you a racially offensive term every day by telling him he's a meanie.

Well, no. Having your boss call you racially insensitive things is way different because that is a place of employment and he's in a position of power. There are laws against it. There are no laws against wearing a racially insensitive Halloween costume.

Where is the line drawn on that? Would dressing up as a Ninja or a Samurai be racially insensitive? What about a sombrero and mustache? Is dressing up as a German with Lederhosen racist? I don't know man. Those kids picked the wrong argument to get worked up about. There's plenty of REAL impactful racism to boycott. Like what's going on with the police.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You don't know what you're talkin about, apparently can't distinguish between a college campus (many of which are public) and a bar and you said your Halloween Costume SWAT Team would be a step in the right direction, contra your current attempt to pretend you weren't advocating it. I mean, your words are right on the page. I'm having a hard time seeing why I should discuss this with you if you're going to be this disingenuous. Is it really that hard to say "yeah, on reflection, that's actually kind of a bad idea"?

I replied to someone asking how would you enforce it. I made no statement saying it should be so.

And my intial suggestion was that they be asked to take off the costume.

I just want to note that my suggestion of asked to leave/escort off campus was twisted by you first to suggest I was calling for a Halloween costume police squad. Then you claimed I was calling for arrests (being told to leave a place is still not being arrested no matter how much you claim it is so) and now the aforinvented Halloween Police Squad is now a SWAT team. Yet I'm the one who is being disgenious.

I'm neither for or against an admin ban on costumes. As in if a school were to do it I'm not opposed and if a school doesn't (aka the school in question) I'm not opposed either. I merely am arguing that were they to go that route it is not that hard to enforce peacefully nor is it the end of the world.

Also a step in the right direction of enforcement bro. If such a policy was implemented. Again this was part of a chain based purely on the question of how duch a rule would be enforced.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

This reads almost exactly like some of the posts I've seen in the riot threads. Decades of systemic oppression and you're surprised that people become enraged when nothing changes? You've never had a really bad day and gotten overly frustrated when someone cut you off in traffic? This is practically the same thing, but on a much larger scale.

There are such things as proportionality and perspective. Rioting is to be expected when police brutalize people for decades unchecked. Someone commenting on something several students expressed frustration over and offering a slightly differing perspective and a word of caution does not lead one to expect that she'd become a scapegoat for all the oppression every minority has experienced. That it happened is regrettable, but what galls is that people are defending it, even reveling in her having "proven" herself wrong despite there being a cavernous difference between a mild confrontation at a party and hundreds of students and thousands of people across the country acting like you're the living embodiment of oblivious white privilege and an unacceptable status quo when you went out of your way in the initial email to say that the problems people have with costumes can be quite legitimate.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Yes,the ability to tolerate offense is a hallmark of a free and open society, but so is voicing offense and taking criticism and self reflecting on that.

Which always gets lost in these debates. Another hallmark of a free and open society is admitting to past mistakes and trying to reconcile. That hasn't really happened for black people.

You see the meme about how we never forget for 9/11 or the holocaust and we are supposed to get over racial discrimination to black people? Denial and dismissal of offenses never works. Not in our most trusted relationships, not in politics, not in any significant interaction. But black people are just supposed to take it, forget, never get adequate reconciliation.

This current push that people are too PC and attacking 'hallmarks' of the education process are failing to identify young people finding their voices and attempting to address problems. It's just another way to make them not human. They are complaining the wrong way, they shouldn't yell, it's the wrong approach, etc.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I am a bit worried about the future of this country. Yale is a place where we have had many members of congress and 2 presidents and many candidates for president run for office. The crusade was childish and immature. Making that womans and her email a scapegoat for systematic oppression was poor in judgment on the students.

I went to college between 05-2010 and i look back on that now and grew a lot since college and did some growing up there but if they cant handle an email such as that well the world will be a tough place. I expect this sort of behavior when someone of a minority gets unlawfully gunned down but over an email is beyond me.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

What? No.

That letter was encouraging people not to wear potentially problematic costumes, including ones that might impair breathing. If anything this seems to be out of a desire for the university to cover their own asses wrt drunk students on Halloween. That would probably include any encounters that arise out of blackface costumes or similar expressions. There was no censorship, regardless of how people chose to feel.

I'm not stating that there was any censorship; to be quite frank I really don't care about the university covering their ass. What I do care about is the notion that you should be able to stifle, prohibit, or censor expression based on your perceived offense. Which is what this was about, it really doesn't matter if it actually occurred. Let us note that this arised prior to any offense occurring.

I don't see the inherent value of racial costumes as forms of expression or attempts to build dialogues, so I don't really get the offense toward the university's letter. If people feel like minorities should be confronted with things that offend them on a daily basis to build character, well they kind of have to do that anyway. If this is about something loftier then responses should probably deal with that instead of zeroing in on the unfairness of not being able to insult someone with a costume.

Please don't be flippant. You know I'm not trying to suggest that we are building up an immunity towards racism. A great deal of these displays are borne out of ignorance and all I'm saying is that it should be used as a educational tool. You aren't going to get rid of racism and bigotry by asking those to please be safe and not dress offensively. Let them do so, when they do, educate and inform.

 

[Piecake]

Which always gets lost in these debates. Another hallmark of a free and open society is admitting to past mistakes and trying to reconcile. That hasn't really happened for black people.

You see the meme about how we never forget for 9/11 or the holocaust and we are supposed to get over racial discrimination to black people? Denial and dismissal of offenses never works. Not in our most trusted relationships, not in politics, not in any significant interaction. But black people are just supposed to take it, forget, never get adequate reconciliation.

Agreed

This current push that people are too PC and attacking 'hallmarks' of the education process are failing to identify young people finding their voices and attempting to address problems. It's just another way to make them not human. They are complaining the wrong way, they shouldn't yell, it's the wrong approach, etc.

This, however, seems very close to the whole criticizing Israel = anti-Semite counter-argument

 

[User 73706]

Then it sounds like a very lackluster and pathetic response to a problem. How many of those instances are going to get noticed by campus officials if their presence isnt ramped up? Barely any if any at all. A much more effective way would seem to be is to make sure that the students themselves have the courage to go up to someone wearing an offensive costume and telling them that line, which is, interestingly enough, exactly what the professor who quit was trying to tell students to do.

As for laws, do you want students to call the campus police and have them take care of the offensive costume problem. Do you want them to investigate those offensives? If not, then I think there is a key difference than any law and this.

Who is going to do this though?

How are they going to decide what is considered offensive on the spot?

There's not much room for interpretation of blackface, but what about costumes that some might consider offensive, but others might not?

Who gets to decide that grey area?

I think you are overestimating the certainty with which a clear and intolerable offense can be distinguished from a potentially intolerable offense. For instance, would it be intolerably offensive to wear a t-shirt with a Charlie Hebdo cartoon of Muhammad? A significant number of people would say yes. And they would draw parallels to the arguments made in the prohibition of potentially offensive halloween costumes. Others, on the other hand, would see it as highly problematic to prohibit it. Or is it offensive to allow a controversial speaker to speak at a university? We have had numerous examples of speakers being prohibited from accepting an invitation to speak at universities, because certain people found the mere expression of a disputed view point intolerably offensive.

It is worth being defensive and skeptic about how much the criticism of ideas and expressions has to be implemented through administrative means or even permanently institutionalized. Especially because institutionalized responses are not the only means through which such ideas and expressions can be criticized. Authoritarian means should not be used lightly. And as I said, in the real world they are not even available in many situations.

Try, for instance, to forbid your boss or an important client from being chauvinistic to female coworkers by invoking some authority. There will be none, at least not in most companies. And there are many more situations like this.Many times there simply does not even exist an institution that could enforce behavior. You'd have to deal with this situation differently. And a university should educate their students with this reality in mind.

Okay, even though the two don't work entirely in parallel in terms of theme or equivalency, let me put it this way: you could compare disciplinary action taken in the event of problematic costuming to drinking at a similar college party. The level of urgency in action and offensiveness in certain costumes operate on a spectrum in that some are clearly unwanted whereas others may simply be questionable. For example, blackface can be analogous to someone getting absolutely shitfaced to the point that they're a detriment to the party, potentially harming others, etc. Granted, there may be a few assholes egging them on, under the premise that blackface is just a case of existing, existentially speaking - but it's ultimately acting to harm the majority of the party. There's really no meaningful discourse to be had in this situation, and if the person in question is uncooperative, that's the point at which the administration would need to come in and escort the individual out of the party or tell them to change / sober up before coming back.

Now, let's take a less cut-and-dry example in the Charlie Hebdo illustration: this would likely spark a discussion more than anything else, and likely would not require administrative intervention. It's comparable to someone being kind of a dick when they're drinking, but not to the point where they're actually bringing the party down. This has a couple of potential outcomes: a mutual understanding could be reached and the person in question could change (or stop drinking), the person could leave (or could leave), the person could continue going about their business at the party but just be regarded as kind of a dick by the offended in question (the person could keep drinking / being a dick), and so on, and so forth. Again, really not seeing where people are interpreting this as "anything remotely offensive as defined by the most outragiest SJW at the party gets aggressively removed from campus by the SWAT PC Riot Police, because free speech is dead."

Offensive costumes and disparaging remarks amoung adults are equivalent to universal suffrage and equal rights with institutional actors?

They're a proponent of it, which is the point. If GAF was around 75 years ago and someone made a "Racial tensions over water fountains lead to angry confrontations" thread, people would probably be asking the same thing. "Reasonable children and adults being denied access to a water fountain - that's totally equivalent, mechanically speaking - are equivalent to desegregation and being given rights analogous to those of whites?" If people don't bother to have discussions where minority privileges, in modicum, are questioned - relative to the freedoms majorities already possess - then no, nothing will ever change.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Please don't be flippant. You know I'm not trying to suggest that we are building up an immunity towards racism. A great deal of these displays are borne out of ignorance and all I'm saying is that it should be used as a educational tool. You aren't going to get rid of racism and bigotry by asking those to please be safe and not dress offensively. Let them do so, when they do, educate and inform.

And when many of them tell you to fuck off? Because that's what happens when you're a minority and the only thing the system wants to give you is a meaningless encouragement to "educate".

It's beyond unacceptable to be ignorant of certain Halloween costumes being racist. The education is everywhere, there are massive media campaigns ever year, most folks that wear those costumed frankly don't care. I mean fuck the Yale email that this professor freaked out about was fundamentally just that, education. There was no enforcement just a suggestion that students avoid racist costumes. This was done so that the weight doesn't fall on the minorities to have to educate every stupid little shit who thinks Native Americans and Black folk are great costume ideas. It was done to amplify their voices. The response to said education? A professor tells minorities to grow up and deal with it themselves. Brilliant.

 

[Thaedolus]

This reads almost exactly like some of the posts I've seen in the riot threads. Decades of systemic oppression and you're surprised that people become enraged when nothing changes? You've never had a really bad day and gotten overly frustrated when someone cut you off in traffic? This is practically the same thing, but on a much larger scale.

When I have a bad day and overreact, I realize what I've done an apologize for it. What do you mean nothing changes? These are some of the most privileged people in the world. Seriously. Do they have shit to deal with? Yes. Is it something to go on a profane tirade about aimed at people who have your best interests in mind and are anything but racists trying to oppress you?. Fuck no.

I can forgive the students being out of line and coming back to Jesus with their mentors. I can't forgive someone who had their best interests in mind, with thrice the life experience, being forced out because temper tantrum throwing coddled students being unwilling to admit they *might* have overreacted.

This shit is ridiculous. Good luck in the real world if a fucking e-mail by one of your allies is so quick to set you off.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I'm not stating that there was any censorship; to be quite frank I really don't care about the university covering their ass. What I do care about is the notion that you should be able to stifle, prohibit, or censor expression based on your perceived offense. Which is what this was about, it really doesn't matter if it actually occurred. Let us note that this arised prior to any offense occurring.



Please don't be flippant. You know I'm not trying to suggest that we are building up an immunity towards racism. A great deal of these displays are borne out of ignorance and all I'm saying is that it should be used as a educational tool. You aren't going to get rid of racism and bigotry by asking those to please be safe and not dress offensively. Let them do so, when they do, educate and inform.

So why the outcry about censorship when you yourself recognize that there was none? You also admitted previously that there have been and will continue to be incidents, so the university's letter was not without reason. While you may not care for them trying to cover their bases, it's a much more honest motive than some nebulous concept of "right."

With regard to racism and displays thereof, do you really think the kind of people who do these things are open to being taught that what they're doing is wrong and why it's wrong? I have to honestly say that I don't. I feel like they are mentally at a stage that is too early for that. Let me also clarify that I don't think something like a Mulan costume is a problem; frankly it's an example so insipid I'm surprised people latched on to it. We all know that there have been and will continue to be "thug parties," "Mexican parties" and so on. I actually don't think things like this should be banned either, as they are endless sources of material for showing people why complaints about PC culture running wild and freedoms being trampled are hilarious, as well as an easy means of spotting the less intelligent. I do however think it's fine if these people are punished after the fact, and if some kind soul wants to wade in the sewer to try to reach them, they are more than welcome.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

And when many of them tell you to fuck off? Because that's what happens when you're a minority and the only thing the system wants to give you is a meaningless encouragement to "educate".

So push to sack the administration that is trying to use it as an educational tool? I'm sorry, how is that helping?

Personally, I segment this type of situation in the same vein as the Trump supporters. I want them in the light of day, let them show their ignorance, and let us as a society use it as a moment of education. You are not going to eradicate the behavior by cloistering it away. Banning the display in an effort of safety isn't going to get rid of it. You are doing far more harm than good.

It's beyond unacceptable to be ignorant of certain Halloween costumes being racist. The education is everywhere, most frankly don't care. I mean fuck the Yale email that this professor freaked out about was fundamentally just that, education. There was no enforcement just a suggestion that students avoid racist costumes. This was done so that the weight doesn't fall on the minorities to have to educate every stupid little shit who thinks Native Americans and Black folk are great costume ideas . The response to said education? A professor tells minorities to grow up and deal with it themselves. Brilliant.

Just going to state, that I think you are emphatically understating the purpose of the letter.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

So why the outcry about censorship when you yourself recognize that there was none? You also admitted previously that there have been and will continue to be incidents, so the university's letter was not without reason. While you may not care for them trying to cover their bases, it's a much more honest motive than some nebulous concept of "right."

Because there is a fine line between actual censorship, prohibition, etc. and pushing in that direction. Surely you accept that.

With regard to racism and displays thereof, do you really think the kind of people who do these things are open to being taught that what they're doing is wrong and why it's wrong? I have to honestly say that I don't.

As an educator, ugh, yah, I think they can be taught. I did some colossally stupid, inappropriate things in college; things that I'm rather ashamed of. Yes, they can be educated...if they couldn't be then shit, let us shut the doors to academe.

Edit--Sorry for the dbl post, far past my bed time, already going to be hating 5am as is. I promise to come back tomorrow.

 

[Dude Abides]

I replied to someone asking how would you enforce it. I made no statement saying it should be so.

And my intial suggestion was that they be asked to take off the costume.

I just want to note that my suggestion of asked to leave/escort off campus was twisted by you first to suggest I was calling for a Halloween costume police squad. Then you claimed I was calling for arrests (being told to leave a place is still not being arrested no matter how much you claim it is so) and now the aforinvented Halloween Police Squad is now a SWAT team. Yet I'm the one who is being disgenious.

I'm neither for or against an admin ban on costumes. As in if a school were to do it I'm not opposed and if a school doesn't (aka the school in question) I'm not opposed either. I merely am arguing that were they to go that route it is not that hard to enforce peacefully nor is it the end of the world.

Also a step in the right direction of enforcement bro. If such a policy was implemented. Again this was part of a chain based purely on the question of how duch a rule would be enforced.

Saying the Halloween Police would be a step in the right direction is an endorsement "bro." I can understand why you wouldn't want to own your words but if you're going to just pretend they have novel meanings known only to yourself I have the answer to my last question. You have a good night.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So push to sack the administration that is trying to use it as an educational tool? I'm sorry, how is that helping?

Personally, I segment this type of situation in the same vein as the Trump supporters. I want them in the light of day, let them show their ignorance, and let us as a society use it as a moment of education. You are not going to eradicate the behavior by cloistering it away. Banning the display in an effort of safety isn't going to get rid of it. You are doing far more harm than good.



Just going to state, that I think you are emphatically understating the purpose of the letter.

THERE WAS NO CALL FOR A BAN!!!!!!

It was literally education. It was a suggestion email that students avoid xyz costumes because of racist implications.

Also the professor everyone was mad at didn't use it as an educational tool. Quite the contrary, she opposed the initial email and said it should be left entirely to the students aka she wanted to take away a valuable educational tool that would have made people less ignorant and instead force minorities to have to do it all themselves. This is also known as the status quo.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Also the professor everyone was mad at didn't use it as an educational tool. Quite the contrary, she opposed the initial email and said it should be left entirely to the students aka she wanted to take away a valuable educational tool that would have made people less ignorant and instead force minorities to have to do it all themselves. This is also known as the status quo.

Wrong. This is known as student centered education, not all education should be handled from an administration/educator level. The purpose of this style of education is for you and your peers to police and inform each other. I know this might come as a shock but students do not always appreciate the instruction from educators.

It is not just placed on minorities, it is placed on the entire student body. The desire is for all students to discuss why X outfit is unacceptable; white kids, black kids, etc. When I tell you don't dress up as X, you are very likely to blow it off. When your friend who you hang out with tells you why it isn't cool to dress up in blackface you might see it from a different perspective. The perspective of your friend.

 

[User 73706]

"thug parties," "Mexican parties"

bububu SJW propaganda

Wrong. This is known as student centered education, not all education should be handled from an administration/educator level. The purpose of this style of education is for you and your peers to police and inform each other. I know this might come as a shock but students do not always appreciate the instruction from educators.

It is not just placed on minorities, it is placed on the entire student body. The desire is for all students to discuss why X outfit is unacceptable; white kids, black kids, etc.

Minorities are always going to have to deal with (read: face, not be accountable for) that shit first and foremost, though. Do you really think the majority of white students are going to be the ones contributing to discussions on why a sombrero, a poncho and a bag of oranges is a bad idea for a costume? "All students have to pull their weight" is tantamount to "but all lives matter" in this context.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Wrong. This is known as student centered education, not all education should be handled from an administration/educator level. The purpose of this style of education is for you and your peers to police and inform each other. I know this might come as a shock but students do not always appreciate the instruction from educators.

It is not just placed on minorities, it is placed on the entire student body. The desire is for all students to discuss why X outfit is unacceptable; white kids, black kids, etc. When I tell you don't dress up as X, you are very likely to blow it off. When your friend who you hang out with tells you why it isn't cool to dress up in blackface you might see it from a different perspective. The perspective of your friend.

So you claim most racist costumes comes from ignorance but when a school release an email with suggestions (that's all it was suggestions) that would combat said ignorance, you say it's not the school's place. The end result is minorities have to yet again fend for themselves.

Ridiculous. This was a suggestion list. End of story.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

1) Reread the latter part of her email. It specifically says that universities have morphed from places where transgressive impulses find freedom of expression to places of prohibition and censure, and asks students to reconsider substituting individual agency for institutional agency. The context she's writing about is a university, yes, but the point is easily and immediately generalizeable to a broader context, and most will do so.

I largely find reading that email that it is not really saying much more than what I have already stated. University are places of learning, solve your own problems blah blah blah. It's not odd that as society changes and we move towards a more aware, informed and socially sensitive standard we aren't going to at any level personally or institutionally entertain stupid thoughts and opinions as anything other than stupid. That's different than saying students want post secondary institutions to exert more pressure for their causes which is true but university now is not the same beast as it was 30 years ago.

2) The Mulan costume is absolutely a gray area, both because we do hold children to a different standard than adults and because a Mulan costume doesn't necessarily imply yellow makeup and taping one's eyes into a slant.

Naw it really isn't. A child wanting to wear it does not make it gray. It's only gray if you dunno whether the costume is appropriate or not. As I said, just because a child can't grasp a concept it doesn't suddenly mean we are gonna let a child do any of the stupid bullshit we don't let adults do. That is if you have a strong set of morals. Whether the costume is okay is an argument entirely different.

3) I didn't remotely say that taking offense to things makes one a baby, I said that there is a gray area in which offense is the more facile response than simply letting something pass. This is a big difference.

No, you pretty much said that. This is one of those issues where people just skirt around the facts of the matter. As a minority, its not a gray issue to me, do not wear fucking racially or culturally insensitive costumes. Don't wear shit if its ambiguous as fuck.

Halloween is one day, you can be a power ranger or a toaster or a pirate or a shower curtain or a body builder or one of 100 million costumes no one would take offense to. Instead people want to put on feathers and war paint and be idiots. It's not something that should be let go because "its not a big deal". To be blunt, its not a big deal is what white people also tell me when they want to say nigga. Instead of asking minorities to constantly let shit go and take issue when they have had enough, take issue with dumb ass people who can't do the single easiest thing on planet earth for minorities for one day. If this is not our opinion on the matter, I genuinely doubt there is care present. Because this is about the single easiest thing to get behind and people are fighting it like deep discussion about war paint and black face on Halloween is going to solve anything. News flash, its not and people who believe otherwise are naive.

Not to mention an active student group made her firing or resignation from her Associate Master post one of their top priorities, and she became a rallying point for dozens and dozens of grievances neither she nor her email have anything to do with. Her efficacy as a teacher was basically shot. Protests are one thing. These people were assholes, and minorities having legitimate grievances doesn't make this particular series of behaviors by a group consisting of minorities any less assholish.

The students suck but this was the issue that pushed people over the edge. People constantly have this idea that everything is good and cozy and then one person slips up slightly and people go batshit insane. That is rarely how it works. People don't want to jump straight to outrage and threat tactics and breaking shit if they genuinely believe airing their grievances through the proper channels would solve the issue. Read the article in this thread about how the students feel they haven't been hear numerous times before this event. I'm pretty over people thinking that minorities just jump to outrage from the start. It rarely ever works that way.

This reads almost exactly like some of the posts I've seen in the riot threads. Decades of systemic oppression and you're surprised that people become enraged when nothing changes? You've never had a really bad day and gotten overly frustrated when someone cut you off in traffic? This is practically the same thing, but on a much larger scale.

Not even that, it just self righteous hypocritical crap. A) No one in this thread has been endorsing the the behavior of the students as the right strategy, that's just him seeing what he wants to see. B) Its about the most common tactic to criticize the methods of the oppressed as though they always jump to ridiculous as opposed to being pushed to a breaking point. Come on, do people really think that this is the single issue of racial insensitivity (as the students see it anyway) in the history of Yale? Yall think these students do not experience racism in their daily lives all the time and at this institution of learning? Baffling.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

No, you pretty much said that. This is one of those issues where people just skirt around the facts of the matter. As a minority, its not a gray issue to me, do not wear fucking racially or culturally insensitive costumes. Don't wear shit if its ambiguous as fuck.

Halloween is one day, you can be a power ranger or a toaster or a pirate or a shower curtain or a body builder or one of 100 million costumes no one would take offense to. Instead people want to put on feathers and war paint and be idiots. It's not something that should be let go because "its not a big deal". To be blunt, its not a big deal is what white people also tell me when they want to say nigga. Instead of asking minorities to constantly let shit go and take issue when they have had enough, take issue with dumb ass people who can't do the single easiest thing on planet earth for minorities for one day. If this is not our opinion on the matter, I genuinely doubt there is care present. Because this is about the single easiest thing to get behind and people are fighting it like deep discussion about war paint and black face on Halloween is going to solve anything. News flash, its not and people who believe otherwise are naive.

I'm not "constantly asking minorities to let shit go", and neither was Christakis, and neither is anybody else in this thread. Your inability or deliberating unwillingness to distinguish between "some" and "all" in what I originally wrote, or to see or acknowledge the slippery slope this whole situation illuminates, somehow my or anybody else's problem.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I'm not "constantly asking minorities to let shit go", and neither was Christakis, and neither is anybody else in this thread. Your inability or deliberating unwillingness to distinguish between "some" and "all" in what I originally wrote, or to see or acknowledge the slippery slope this whole situation illuminates, somehow my or anybody else's problem.

I know she did not say that. I said that her response ultimately boils down to that in real life. Its like you have ignored everything I have actually said on the issue. I don't lack inability. I'm just not so naive to think "oh if I try and have a deep and naunced conversation with them on Halloween that will solve everything" is actually a valid strategy to this issue.

As for you, your original post was just throwing shade. I debated why it and the administrator are living in a fantasy land if your idea of inappropriate top down censorship is an institution informing its populace to be conscious of shit that offends.

Therr is no slippery slope. Institutions take stances all the time. They inform their populace about things like this all the time. Her email doesn't break down to critical thought because the issue does not require critical thought. A native american should not have to talk to someone making a mockery of their culture at a Halloween party in the name of change.

Its honestly like you havent read any of my argument. The absolute worst portion of her argument is that it implies students and other avenues are not even saying anything about the issue which is wrong. Institutions like Universities are only even commenting on this due to advocacy groups and student unions to begin with. The Uni didnt just decide to say this out of no where.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

There is another aspect to this topic other than intellectual education: character building. You should be able to deal with offensive situations and bigoted people—as long as there is no physical violence or violation of privacy involved—without having to invoke the force of authorities. If you cannot deal with such situations, you are not being prepared for life. You are not being prepared to work in any real-world environment where you will have to deal with these things all the time. There is no authority in real life that shields you from everything in every situation. Thankfully. It's the job of any educational facility to prepare students for life.

Which is kind of meta. 'Don't expect anyone in society to respond to your complaints of racial indifference or hostility. Just suck it up and talk about it. That will fix things. We haven't talked about this enough. No one has ever dismissed complaints of bigotry before.'

 

[Simplet]

For fuck sake the woman really lost her job over this bullshit?

 

[tiredheadcrab]

For fuck sake the woman really lost her job over this bullshit?

I thought she decided to just not teach there. I dont blame her.

 

[injurai]

I thought she decided to just not teach there. I dont blame her.

After students fought for her termination. She resigned out of coercion.

 

[ElTorro]

Which is kind of meta. 'Don't expect anyone in society to respond to your complaints of racial indifference or hostility. Just suck it up and talk about it. That will fix things. We haven't talked about this enough. No one has ever dismissed complaints of bigotry before.'

Talking has led to more change than enforcement. It's a long process, yes. And it can be frustrating and depressing for the individual. But it works. And it's probably the only thing that really works.

I thought she decided to just not teach there. I dont blame her.

A "voluntary reassignment" is just code to save someone's face. You "voluntarily" resign because you realize that you have no other option. And, of course, everybody else is "very sad" that you're gone and would "love to see you come back." (Not really. They just want the situation to deescalate, even if that means letting someone's head roll.)

 

[Squalor]

It's disappointing people are supporting harassment

The professor wanted to open up discussion, and there's a way to disagree with her without harassing her and her husband.

That's despicable.