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[GoldenEye 007]

This is the same PD that kept up that inaccurate suspect photo on their Twitter all night and then the NEXT DAY asked the world not to spread mistruths.

That clearly invalidates all of the documented and factual information since 2012 that shows the department has been making a genuine effort in correcting issues while producing actual data that shows improvements have been made.

 

[GK86]

Look.

No one after Sandy Hook, Aurora, Charleston (especially Charleston) said fuck the police are going to be extra hard on white people now, or fuck this will hurt the credibility of white people.

Yet here, despite the shooter explicitly saying he had no relationship to BLM that's a common narrative, that he's single handedly undone all the work and progress BLM made.

Only in an institutionally and fundamentally racist fucking society could one man undo the work of millions of people who have only skin colour in common with him.

That's why dismissing conversations about institutional racism, and wanting people just to say he's a racist shooter is a flawed and facile argument.

Not at all surprising. Especially when people (and even gaffers on here) love to scream the "message is lost" when a window is broken at a protest or when protesters block streets/highways.

 

[Diffense]

No, they didn't.

Oh?
I must have misunderstood the reports that Mark Hughes was being pressured to confess while being told there was evidence against him. I'll have to check into that again.

 

[Zoe]

Oh?
I must have misunderstood the reports that Mark Hughes was being pressured to confess while being told there was evidence against him. I'll have to check into that again.

In other words every interrogation ever?

 

[excelsiorlef]

A lot of GAF hivemind posts are bullshit. But you are kidding yourself if you dont think the site as a whole doesnt have a very, VERY liberal bias. Like to the point where I wouldnt be surprised if a bunch of people here who identify as conservatives or right leaning dont even bother posting their opinions because they get ganged up on super fast.

And thats coming from a VERY left leaning person. Lets be honest about it at least, this site at times is an absolute echo chamber.

No it has a liberal centrist bias. It only looks extremely bias because bullshit alt right isn't able to swarm the discussion

It still struggles mightly with pretty much every intersectional category you can name: minorities, women, trans folk etc. ..

 

[excelsiorlef]

So you're saying without social media documentation, they were just pretending a bunch of deaths didn't occur at all?

Without social media it's easy to fileva justified shooting report and bury it yes.

 

[The Kree]

Y'all really don't get why someone might not believe everything the cops say? LOL

I think some of you are too caught up in feeling bad for the dead ones to realize the live ones are still as capable of douchebaggery as ever.

Texas cops shot a man with his hands up last night. But they said he was pointing a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3iTQrPFWLs

Who to believe?

 

[kirblar]

http://nypdnews.com/2015/10/nypd-annual-firearms-discharge-report/

It's not really that strange, as crime went down the number of shootings went down too. The question is what the picture is like for the whole USA. Recently there has been a massive push on gathering data without any historical reference, just a list that creates the impression of an incredible rise in police shootings.

People being murdered by criminals is an even larger problem. Nearly 2000 people a year did not die from being murdered in New York now compared to the early 90's.

It went down worldwide. Politicians in the '90s took credit for it, but it appears incredibly likely that the reduction was the result of larger environmental factors (specifically the removal of lead from gas, paint, etc.) that resulted in better human behavior. However, we didn't know this while it was happening, and so you ended up with the improvements being attributed to all sorts of terrible policies ('90s crime bill, stopnfrisk) that just happened to inadvertently coincide. (The ole causation!= correlation thing)

 

[Diffense]

In other words every interrogation ever?

Even if their behavior is routine I'm not sure how that invalidates the observation that they were trying to "get" an innocent man by identifying him as a suspect and attempting to extract a confession using deceptive tactics. How does that support the idea that we should be implicitly trustful of the police?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Y'all really don't get why someone might not believe everything the cops say? LOL

I think some of you are too caught up in feeling bad for the dead ones to realize the live ones are still as capable of douchebaggery as ever.

Texas cops shot a man with his hands up last night. But they said he was pointing a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3iTQrPFWLs

Who to believe?

Except Dallas has been embracing the community? And Dallas has produced tangible results and improvement?

 

[The Kree]

Except Dallas has been embracing the community? And Dallas has produced tangible results and improvement?

Good on them. They're still not free of suspicion yet.

 

[neoism]

not sure if posted couldnt find the other thread...

this pic is rediculious...

hope that girl is ok...

 

[excelsiorlef]

Even if their behavior is routine I'm not sure how that invalidates the observation that they were trying to "get" an innocent man by identifying him as a suspect and attempting to extract a confession using deceptive tactics. How does that support the idea that we should be implicitly trustful of the police?

Especially when their lie was we have you on camera.

That isn't fishing for self-incrimination or investigation , that's defacto assuming he's guilty and that they have their man and that he'll just confess because he obviously did it and now believes we have irrefutable proof.

Of course he didn't so the tactic was stupid as fuck.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Good on them. They're still not free of suspicion yet.

That's fine. But given their work compared to the vast majority of departments across the country, I think they deserve some credit. They've been working to make things better since 2012. Sure, it should have happened sooner, but we'd all be better off if more departments started doing what Dallas has been doing and continues to do.

 

[burntchomsky]

No it has a liberal centrist bias. It only looks extremely bias because bullshit alt right isn't able to swarm the discussion

It does have a liberal centrist bias, hence the Hillary support. But just because it is centrist doesn't mean it isn't an extreme liberal centrist bias, which is exactly what I'd say it is. Regarding what the guy above wrote, yeah, I think there are a huge amount of people who don't bother posting their own views on different things.

People with like minds are going to inevitably congregate in certain areas -- online and otherwise-- but in spite of that reality, we need to take the time to understand the other side, where they are coming from, and finally treat them respectfully. There are a huge amount of people who don't do that on this forum, so it's pretty understandable that people would reserve voicing their own opinions when they differ from the mainstream on it.

 

[wesleyshark]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/da...n-blood/ar-BBu98M3?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

"In the CNN interview Sunday, Brown said of Johnson, “I think that this killer had some delusions.” He cited “rambling” statements in a journal recovered from his home and said investigators found “some lettering in blood” on a wall in the building where he was killed after apparently being wounded on his way up a stairwell. “He wrote the letters ‘RB,’” Brown said. “We’re trying to figure out what those initials mean.”

"During negotiations that lasted about two hours, Johnson was “playing games” with a police negotiator after insisting that he would speak only with an African American. “He was laughing at us. He was singing. He asked how many did he get.... He wanted to kill some more.”

What a horrific human being.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/da...n-blood/ar-BBu98M3?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

"In the CNN interview Sunday, Brown said of Johnson, “I think that this killer had some delusions.” He cited “rambling” statements in a journal recovered from his home and said investigators found “some lettering in blood” on a wall in the building where he was killed after apparently being wounded on his way up a stairwell. “He wrote the letters ‘RB,’” Brown said. “We’re trying to figure out what those initials mean.”

"During negotiations that lasted about two hours, Johnson was “playing games” with a police negotiator after insisting that he would speak only with an African American. “He was laughing at us. He was singing. He asked how many did he get.... He wanted to kill some more.”

What a horrific human being.

He clearly had some issues beyond the institutional racism of police in the US. We know things go back to his military days where he was discharged over sexual harassment/assault issues and referred to mental health counseling.

 

[The Kree]

That's fine. But given their work compared to the vast majority of departments across the country, I think they deserve some credit. They've been working to make things better since 2012. Sure, it should have happened sooner, but we'd all be better off if more departments started doing what Dallas has been doing and continues to do.

Give them all the credit you want, that's your choice. Some people aren't ready to give them credit for shit they should have been doing in the first place. Everybody's optimism doesn't grow at your pace. If someone chooses to remain skeptical, that has nothing to do with the DPD's efforts towards positive change. Black people don't immediately get the benefit of the doubt either when they do well for themselves.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Give them all the credit you want, that's your choice. Some people aren't ready to give them credit for shit they should have been doing in the first place. Everybody's optimism doesn't grow at your pace. If someone chooses to remain skeptical, that has nothing to do with the DPD's efforts towards positive change. Black people don't immediately get the benefit of the doubt either.

Well I don't live in an ideal world. Ideally, you're right. But the reality is that this country is deeply racist and very slow moving. So yeah, when in 2012, the department was taking efforts to stop that crap, it is to be applauded from my point of view.

We will not get overnight change. This is not how this country operates. The change will be painful, slow, and with mistakes.

I didn't say they needed to stop those improvements or that they were perfect. Clearly there is more to be done. But they were on a positive path.

 

[CrimsonCommie]

Can someone tell me why deaths by police in the USA have shot up so dramatically the last year and a half?

According to this site, deaths shot up by nearly 400 YOY from 2013 to 2014, and have proceeded to grow to over 1,200 in 2015. What happened in 2014 to cause the sudden jump?

The FBI statistics for shootings by police were very inaccurate for years. It was all based on self-reporting by the departments and some didn't participate at all. Some people had the estimates in the thousands each year. Last year or the year before other organizations started keeping a count since our own government couldn't be bothered to give us accurate information about how they are killing us.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

not sure if posted couldnt find the other thread...

this pic is rediculious...

hope that girl is ok...

What's the context? What's ridiculous about it?

 

[neoism]

What's the context? What's ridiculous about it?

the fucking mgs battle gear... amry bros in war zones dont get that much armor.... not sure about contexts just seen it in my twitter feed

 

[Kurdel]

It adds historical perspective to the origins of policing in the US. It's especially relevant given it lasted so long - until the 1960s. And fallout from it is still being felt.

All data shows that minorities, especially blacks, get the brunt of defective police practices in this country.

That is an undisputed fact, but to claim that the police cannot be a positive social force because of 100+ year old history is ridiculous. I wonder how Kame-sennin feels about modern day germans...

 

[Diffense]

That is an undisputed fact, but to claim that the police cannot be a positive social force because of 100+ year old history is ridiculous. I wonder how Kame-sennin feels about modern day germans...

You should really ask what he feels about modern day Nazis if we're going to compare organizations to organizations instead of substituting a whole ethnicity/nationality.

 

[MogCakes]

You should really ask what he feels about modern day Nazis if we're going to compare organizations to organizations instead of substituting a whole ethnicity/nationality.

Do we have secret police and wide-spread publicly accepted massacre by the millions in concentration camps of minorities today?

 

[Bad_Boy]

What's the context? What's ridiculous about it?

idk, maybe its the full body armor for some girl in a sundress holding a cell phone.

 

[Diffense]

Do we have secret police and wide-spread publicly accepted massacre by the millions in concentration camps of minorities today?

This is completely irrelevant to what I posted. The point is that the analogy is of poor quality and I improved it.

EDIT:
(And even then the point being contested was whether an organization's past can predict its future.
So the question you should be asking about police is whether they, as slave patrols, were killing black people with impunity in the past and whether they still do it.
The question you'd ask about Neo-Nazis is whether they still hold to the original ideals of that organization.
Asserting that police *are* Nazis was never part of the argument.)

 

[MogCakes]

This is completely irrelevant to what I posted. The point is that the analogy is of poor quality and I improved it.

It is entirely relevant - but do try to prove what improvements you made by using the Nazis.

 

[Two Words]

not sure if posted couldnt find the other thread...

this pic is rediculious...

hope that girl is ok...

What is ridiculous about it? The gear they are wearing? I doubt they put it on because of her and it's not like they're going to take it of so that they can arrest her/approach her.

idk, maybe its the full body armor for some girl in a sundress holding a cell phone.

Do you honestly believe that she is why they are wearing full body armor?

 

[EdibleKnife]

It is entirely relevant - but do try to prove what improvements you made by using the Nazis.

Kurdel analogized the police force to the Germans. Being German isn't an occupation nor is it voluntary unlike joining the Nazi party or accepting their ideals.

 

[MogCakes]

Kurdel analogized the police force to the Germans. Being German isn't an occupation nor is it voluntary unlike joining the Nazi party or accepting their ideals.

Thanks, I see it now. Apologies to you Diffense for misconstruing your post.

 

[Jonm1010]

Y'all really don't get why someone might not believe everything the cops say? LOL

I think some of you are too caught up in feeling bad for the dead ones to realize the live ones are still as capable of douchebaggery as ever.

Texas cops shot a man with his hands up last night. But they said he was pointing a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3iTQrPFWLs

Who to believe?

Not sure if you are aware:

Dallas seems to by no means to be perfect or even ideal, but to use another department to paint one that has clearly taken steps toward better policing and has actually been proactive and supportive of BLM recently, well, its intellectually dishonest. It would be like using Hereford, TX to paint a picture of political allegiance in Austin. It would be ridiculous.

 

[The Kree]

Not sure if you are aware:

Dallas seems to by no means to be perfect or even ideal, but to use another department to paint one that has clearly taken steps toward better policing and has actually been proactive and supportive of BLM recently, well, its intellectually dishonest.

That's not what I did though. I judge the American institution of law enforcement as a whole - and I think it's garbage. But because we're talking about Dallas, I remember last year it was reported that Dallas Ranks No. 3 in Nation for Rate of Fatal Police Shootings.

Sure, pats on the back all around. DPD is finally getting better at being less murderous. Awesome. Keep up the good work. Bang up job so far. Kudos. Props.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

That's not what I did though. I judge the American institution of law enforcement as a whole - and I think it's garbage. But because we're talking about Dallas, I remember last year it was reported that Dallas Ranks No. 3 in Nation for Rate of Fatal Police Shootings.

Sure, pats on the back all around. DPD is finally getting better at being less murderous. Awesome. Keep up the good work. Bang up job so far. Kudos. Props.

Those stats were from 2010-2014. The major reforms in Dallas didn't start until 2012. And there have been sharp declines since then.

 

[The Kree]

Those stats were from 2010-2014. The major reforms in Dallas didn't start until 2012. And there have been sharp declines since then.

Still not good enough for me. Sorry.

 

[Jonm1010]

That's not what I did though. I judge the American institution of law enforcement as a whole - and I think it's garbage. But because we're talking about Dallas, I remember last year it was reported that Dallas Ranks No. 3 in Nation for Rate of Fatal Police Shootings.

Sure, pats on the back all around. DPD is finally getting better at being less murderous. Awesome. Keep up the good work. Bang up job so far. Kudos. Props.

You used two examples from Houston to paint Dallas. That is EXACTLY what you did.

Now, that stat is a little better. More relevant. Still, we need more context then just numbers. If what is reported is to be believed, the reforms happened smack in the middle of that snapshot study and from all I have read it has been on a positive trajectory.

Still not good enough for me. Sorry.

So really you aren't interested in discussion? This little exercise was just a ruse? Like a climate change denier you have your opinion and no matter what happens you are sticking to it. At least you made that clear before you wasted peoples time.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Still not good enough for me. Sorry.

Progress isn't good enough for you? As I said previously, a snap of the fingers would be great. But we don't live in fantasy land.

Nobody is saying DPD is perfect and needs to stop the positive stuff they have been doing. Clearly there is more to be done.

 

[Two Words]

Still not good enough for me. Sorry.

Dialogue where both sides are 100% suspicious of each other can only lead to nowhere. I agree that there should be a skeptical attitude towards police in cases where police can have a motive to lie. This was an incident where a single man went after and murdered police officers. He murdered people, discriminately. Between a mass murderer and the police, the benefit of the doubt should go to the police. If you're not going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this, then when will you? And if you're answer is never, then you're putting yourself in a place of complete zero common ground.

 

[The Kree]

Progress isn't good enough for you? As I said previously, a snap of the fingers would be great. But we don't live in fantasy land.

Nobody is saying DPD is perfect and needs to stop the positive stuff they have been doing. Clearly there is more to be done.

Progress is good, but I'm not impressed by the effort thus far. I'm not really fond of this idea that some people have to wait patiently for others to get comfortable with their mere existence while they die unnecessarily. Again, I don't have optimism to spare.

 

[Media]

Still not good enough for me. Sorry.

So unless we can stop all police over reach everywhere all with the snap of a finger, no one should even try?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Those stats were from 2010-2014. The major reforms in Dallas didn't start until 2012. And there have been sharp declines since then.

But it really shouldn't be happening at all. Even if one person gets shot for no good reason by those police, then all the criticism they get is warranted. If someone doesn't want to sing their praises, that's more than fair.

The fact that the officers who shot that guy last night could conceivably get away with shooting someone who had their hands up means no one has to preface their grievances with "well, at least they're trying!"

So unless we can stop all police over reach everywhere all with the snap of a finger, no one should even try?

He's saying we shouldn't be satisfied this modicum/hint of progress, and that people shouldn't feel obligated to feel satisfied/complacent when things are still fundamentally broken.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Here's the deal PD shouldn't and won't get cookies for not mudering or only murdering less....


That's not an accomplishment.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So unless we can stop all police over reach everywhere all with the snap of a finger, no one should even try?

Where are you even getting this from?

People don't need gold stars for doing their fucking job and not killing people. Where are my trophies?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Where are you even getting this from?

People don't need gold stars for doing their fucking job.

Seriously.


Everything is so fucked when we say give them credit/kudos they're trying not to murder as many people as they used to.

 

[The Kree]

So unless we can stop all police over reach everywhere all with the snap of a finger, no one should even try?

Is that what you think I'm saying? When's the last time you got a medal for not killing someone who flinched in a way that spooked you?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Is that what you think I'm saying? When's the last time you got a medal for not killing someone for flinching in a way that spooked you?

Or reached for their wallet in their car after you asked them to.

 

[DrForester]

Y'all really don't get why someone might not believe everything the cops say? LOL

I think some of you are too caught up in feeling bad for the dead ones to realize the live ones are still as capable of douchebaggery as ever.

Texas cops shot a man with his hands up last night. But they said he was pointing a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3iTQrPFWLs

Who to believe?

He should have fired seven shots at the officers, then he would have been fine.

https://twitter.com/MarlaABC13/status/752101328545914881/video/1

 

[Jonm1010]

Progress is good, but I'm not impressed by the effort thus far. I'm not really fond of this idea that some people have to wait patiently for others to get comfortable with their mere existence while they die unnecessarily. Again, I don't have optimism to spare.

Its hard for me to believe you have even looked honestly at the reforms in Dallas in anyway that would make your view of them worthy of consideration. Your discussion on Dallas to me has shown a clear ignorance of that area.

Your conflation of the entirety of the police force into a singular caricature is further testimony to your intellectual laziness.

This is a major issue no doubt. One that evidence says affects more, if not most, police departments. But not all departments are operating equally. Not all departments are at the same state of failure and it does a disservice to intellectual inquiry to ignore context like you were doing with Dallas and asserting a false picture using stacked evidence that ignores context or misrepresents them.

 

[MogCakes]

Going back to how this particular argument has started, kame-sennin posited that DPD fabricated the words of Micah Johnson to suit a narrative of racism against white people.

Micah said whatever the police want him to have said. In the absence of audio, we'll never know what he said or if he said anything at all.

In his other posts, he refers to the murders as an act of protest against white oppression.

Also, I did not say he was racist. Racism is a philosophy built to morally justify white supremacy. Since he was murdering people in protest of white supremacy, his killing, whatever else they were, were not racist.

He also sees fit to redefine racism to fit his own narrative.

No, racism is about the perpetuation of white supremacy. A black person can not engage in racism*** because they do not have the institutional power of white supremacy behind them. While Micah Johnson's actions were designed to attack a group of people beyond the ones he personally killed via fear and intimidation, these killings are not a part of a systematic violent oppression of whites because no such system exists.

The rebranding of anti-white rhetoric and violence by black radicals as "racism" is a right-wing tactic designed to dilute the meaning of the word. These killings were not hate crimes. They were not a part of a pattern of genocidal actions. They were 'just' murder. Perhaps terrorism.


***Johnson was no doubt prejudiced and discriminatory. But that's not the same as racism.

So in kame-sennin's case, the originator of this now-third tangential argument, he is not simply remaining skeptical of police, he is attempting to craft a narrative that reassigns blame from the murderer.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

No shit it shouldn't be happening it all. But we don't live in fantasy land. We live in a slow moving and deeply racist nation.

So I will celebrate the small victories and the significant and positive nature of the progress in Dallas in hopes that it will continue and be spread to other departments in the US.