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[Regulus Tera]

Popularization of the non-interactive cinematic yes, origin of it, no.

There's a saying in Spanish that goes like "he who restrains the donkey by the leg is as much of a sinner as the one who kills it". I think he comes from that point of view.

Look, I loved the 16 bit era just as much as you apparently did by your posts. I spent hours upon hours playing NES, SNES and Genesis games in my childhood, but this idea that optical disc ruined gaming is a bit off as far as I'm concerned.
Do you remember what some of those cartridge games were beginning to run cost-wise? Final Fantasy VI I believe I paid around $75 for, and most of the games I ended up buying I got from rental places clearing out extra rental copies on the cheap because the MSRP was creeping up from $50 to the $60, $70 and higher range. When you're relying on your parents, a measly allowance or mowing your neighbor's yard all summer to afford stuff, a $70-$80 game is brutal on the wallet.

Sony PS1 was riding the natural evolution of gaming hardware when it used CD-ROM technology. It made the games cheaper for both the developers and the end consumers. Sure, CD-ROM and it;s console successors DVD and Bluray has introduced us to load times and some developers who fill optical discs with useless bloat, but I am glad optical discs have been the format of choice over cartridges in all home consoles these past few generations.

Now as far as the rise of cinematics and cutscenes, that's a whole different topic of discussion and one that is less a concern with the media format as much as with each individual game producer and how they decide upon the proper or improper use of cinematic elements.

NeoGAF is like a time machine.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

This forum is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
I really don't know how some of you manage to keep up.

 

[neojubei]

I think you're insane. He literally said he's intent was to move the series forward ten steps but could only move the series forward one step because they were using the cell to it's maximum. How is that twisting anything?

As for if it's relevant, yes it is. It shows that developers still can't do what they want on these machines so we're not at diminishing returns yet, we could be a long way off.

I'm going to fall into the trap of now going off topic, but people like Kojima are perfectionists, no medium would satisfy them fully. PS5 with all the advantages probably won't still be up to snuff for Kojima because even after he finishes his games/projects there is more he wants to do but will be strapped because of budget, time, system, whatever.

This forum is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
I really don't know how some of you manage to keep up.

Remember a time before forums when your parents bought you a new system or game and the excitement you used to feel. Awe those were the times, now on to SALES!!!!

 

[Regulus Tera]

This forum is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.

You've never been to Gamefaqs, have you?

 

[StuBurns]

There's a saying in Spanish that goes like "he who restrains the donkey by the leg is as much of a sinner as the one who kills it". I think he comes from that point of view.

Okay, I can see that. But to me the job of a first party is to support it's third parties as strong as possible. To provide the best tech to allow them to do what they want. People wanted more space, Sony provided that.

Final Fantasy went to the PlayStation format because Nintendo failed to accompany their requirements. Should Sony really get shit for that?

 

[braimuge]

nvm


mp3 was not fully upload :lol

 

[Trailblazer]

This forum is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
I really don't know how some of you manage to keep up.

Dennis Dyack is that you?

No every form of entertainment and hobby has it's crazy fanboys. You ever hear sports fan argue about which team is best?

 

[Regulus Tera]

Okay, I can see that. But to me the job of a first party is to support it's third parties as strong as possible. To provide the best tech to allow them to do what they want. People wanted more space, Sony provided that.

Final Fantasy went to the PlayStation format because Nintendo failed to accompany their requirements. Should Sony really get shit for that?

Should any company get shit because a portion of the market disagrees with its business decisions?

Spoiler

Yes, that's one of the uses for freedom of expression.

 

[Calcaneus]

Remember a time before forums when your parents bought you a new system or game and the excitement you used to feel. Awe those were the times, now on to SALES!!!!

The worst thing about the internet is the realization that some people just do not have the ability to just enjoy things without turning it into an argument. See: Review threads and youtube comments.

 

[Deku]

Edge: 199
"Lost in Transition" - What happens to gaming history when the internet is responsible for maintaining it?

 

[D.Lo]

We didn't exactly "only" watch legendary games such as Tomb Raider, Tekken, Final Fantasy 7, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil which all took advantage of CD technology. Don't get me wrong, I commend what Nintendo did with the Wii, but how can you say Sony killed gaming when they created some of the best games of all time and made gaming mainstream? CD is probably the best thing that ever happened to gaming. I do agree that sometimes there is a heavy emphasis on cutscenes, voice acting and cinematics, but I take that over expensive cartridges with limited memory? Even the Wii to my knowledge is DVD-based. There must be a logical reason behind that.

Sounds a lot like how another company has been 'killing gaming' in more recent times. Hmm...

 

[hateradio]

Companies aren't killing gaming, over zealous gamers are. Now go back to your caves! :lol

 

[Redd]

Companies aren't killing gaming, over zealous gamers are. Now go back to your caves! :lol

Agreed. I kind of like all of them for one reason or another.

 

[braimuge]

:lol

BMF is right. Why have one at all.

He's such a BMF

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Don't hate me, I have many Asian friends.

And I know my fake accent is crap.

But why have an accent at all?

 

[Bulla564]

I'll always say that Sony was the one that allowed the industry to GROW UP along with the kids that started gaming in the era of the NES. I'm not saying that games before did not have a mature theme, but as teenagers, we got more realistic graphics, more sophisticated experiences, and developers got a medium to flesh out their own interactive movies.

MGS did it for me, a more realistic Madden could have done it for the masses, etc etc etc.

 

[Gotchaye]

Bulla, that's one way of looking at it. But the 'growing up' that occurred with the PS1 also left some slightly older gamers behind.

I guess I think that everyone ought to be able to agree that the sensibilities of PS1/PS2 games aren't objectively superior to those of NES/SNES games. It's a mistake, I think, to say that Sony provided generally 'more sophisticated experiences' (except in a technical sense, of course).

 

[Shurs]

I'm absolutely serious. Back in the late 90's Sony did a damn good job of ruining the gaming that I had enjoyed for over a decade with Nintendo and Sega. For a long time gaming became a very secondary hobby to me - something I did for a few hours a month, if at all, and was really only encapsulated by a few games for the past two generations.

My post is to illustrate that you're not the only gamers out there, and it's not like a shift like this hasn't happened before.

No matter what happens, the glory days of the NES, SNES, and Genesis won't come back, but that won't stop me from enjoying it as Sony gets the bad end of the stick as mainstream gaming changes direction again as they can't keep up.

So you just ignore the Sega CD and blame Sony?

 

[Haunted]

This forum is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
I really don't know how some of you manage to keep up.

You really need to take a break from GAF, dude. Seen you posting sad "this thread sucks" messages more and more recently.

Mostly in threads that deserved it, mind you, but still. >_<

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

You really need to take a break from GAF, dude. Seen you posting sad "this thread sucks" messages more and more recently.

Mostly in threads that deserved it, mind you, but still. >_<

If I left GAF I'd have nowhere else to go. =(

 

[Sydle]

considering they are already making the system for something like 380$ and with that number decreasing 50$ is a very likely number. Besides it is what they do now with each PS2 system and back in the day with each PS1 system. I don't think it will be too different this gen since they had very advance technology in every of their system at the beginning of the generation.



Did you ever heard of something called open market economy? There is no single product on the market right now which did now lose market share at one point and gained market share at another. As stronger your competitors are, as more dificult it is to gain marketshare. Sony made a lot of mistakes but that is the risk you take if you enter a market with a new product. You can fail and they did not fail. They just lost market share but they can still keep them self in the market. So whats the point?

The point is that they're no longer the market leader. They've lost significant market share and mind share. It effects business.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

So you just ignore the Sega CD and blame Sony?

Or at the time, the TG-CD or the Saturn? I owned a TG-16 and the CD add-on fairly early on - shortly after it came out. It did nothing to promote optical media as a good medium for gaming. It had games that I didn't like - Sherlock Holmes for example - that were really just a bunch of low budget boring cutscenes that did a poor job of building a game. It also had games I did like - like Street Fighter, Ys Book 1+2, and Monster Lair that were lessened by the loading times inherent in the format, but were only marginally improved by the additional storage capacity.

Now, looking back, I *know* that Sony did some things that were very crucial to bringing gaming forward as a medium. Specifically they broadened the audience and brought in many new casual gamers. They also changed the business model by introducing the first CD based system that was reasonable for gaming - lessening the manufacturing costs and risks involved in publishing a game.

They also changed gaming in ways that I didn't like. An example was their insistence that games published for their system had to take significant advantage of the 3D hardware to do things that couldn't be done on the SNES. A prime example of where this went wrong was with the Contra games on the system.

What's interesting to me now is that all of this is coming full circle. Nintendo has re-invented itself and now the positions are reversed. Nintendo is doing things that are bringing new casual gamers into the fold, and are purposely keeping their system capability and capacity down to try and keep development costs from inflating beyond what's sustainable as a business model. Hopefully in 10 years some of you will be able to look back at what's happening now, and see it as a good thing.

The funniest bit will be that in about 10 years, somebody else will be introducing something new that brings in new casual gamers, and changes the business model for the better. Those who began gaming with Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit, will be complaining about how gaming is being ruined.

 

[matmanx1]

There's some hilarious stuff happening in this thread right now. And that's really one of the main reasons I read 'Gaf everyday. It can be really, really entertaining and also informative. This thread is both things. So once again, thanks 'Gaf!

Oh, and before this gets any more off topic, grats to the PS3 for not being dead. I will always love you!

 

[Black-Wind]

You want Nintendo to think it's okay to recycle their games and hardware? It's a disgrace. Microsoft and Sony should be stomping on them, not looking to them for inspiration for what to do next time. The Wii has said one thing, gamers don't give a fuck, they'll buy the same thing time after time.

I want brutal competition, but not between distance second and third place.

*Sorry for the rant. Well, not really . . . >_>

As a person who likes games I want the Wii to ass rape the HD twins as much as it can. (. . . and as a customer I surely wouldn't mind if Sony burnt in hell seeing as ALL my Sony products have screwed me over in some way)

Why? Because I don't want to promote a $300+ price tag. I don't want to promote this boom in devilopment cost that's killing off devs. I don't care about HD cause I don't have a HD TV/ BR player yet so I don't want to promote this tech/ pissing race that drives up the cost for things I don't have any use for yet (next thing ya know theres going to be a console race for 3D television tech . . . ).
I don't want console makers to keep using the same damn controls for each new console. I don't want games to be something thats only for teenage boys and man-babies, I want it to be something for everyone. And I don't want huge juggernaut companies thinking that its OK to do the above simply because they don't have to worry about the cost as much as Nintendo has to and Sega had to.

So yeah, I pretty much don't want console makers to think it's OK to do the things above so Im happy seeing the Wii do so well. To me it's proof that innovation and creativity are what drives this industry and not tech pissing matches. You clearly feel differently and thats OK.

Next gen I expect MS to "learn" from Nintendo in some way. Sony . . . IDK so much. Sometimes they seem to think they live in their own lil world where their the leader.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Jesus, that's some dumb fanboy shit. I'd understand it more if the Wii were some sort of bastion of "old timey gaming" too. Instead it's just some party games and worse looking versions of what's on other consoles. In other words, a bowl of ass. I guess it's the sales which make him feel all nostalgic.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Congrats Sony!!! Knew you weren't "dead" all along...

Some of you guys take this stuff way to seriously, and need to put things in perspective.

 

[Calcaneus]

Or at the time, the TG-CD or the Saturn? I owned a TG-16 and the CD add-on fairly early on - shortly after it came out. It did nothing to promote optical media as a good medium for gaming. It had games that I didn't like - Sherlock Holmes for example - that were really just a bunch of low budget boring cutscenes that did a poor job of building a game. It also had games I did like - like Street Fighter, Ys Book 1+2, and Monster Lair that were lessened by the loading times inherent in the format, but were only marginally improved by the additional storage capacity.

Now, looking back, I *know* that Sony did some things that were very crucial to bringing gaming forward as a medium. Specifically they broadened the audience and brought in many new casual gamers. They also changed the business model by introducing the first CD based system that was reasonable for gaming - lessening the manufacturing costs and risks involved in publishing a game.

They also changed gaming in ways that I didn't like. An example was their insistence that games published for their system had to take significant advantage of the 3D hardware to do things that couldn't be done on the SNES. A prime example of where this went wrong was with the Contra games on the system.

What's interesting to me now is that all of this is coming full circle. Nintendo has re-invented itself and now the positions are reversed. Nintendo is doing things that are bringing new casual gamers into the fold, and are purposely keeping their system capability and capacity down to try and keep development costs from inflating beyond what's sustainable as a business model. Hopefully in 10 years some of you will be able to look back at what's happening now, and see it as a good thing.

The funniest bit will be that in about 10 years, somebody else will be introducing something new that brings in new casual gamers, and changes the business model for the better. Those who began gaming with Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit, will be complaining about how gaming is being ruined.

Even so there were a some great 2D games on the console, like SOTN and lots of 2D fighters.

And seeing as you still feel resentment for Sony in the 90s, I don't think the "Wii is kiling gaming" people are going to change their tune in a decade.

 

[Haunted]

If I left GAF I'd have nowhere else to go. =(

Welp, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe listen to some Linkin Park or something.

Spoiler

Hang in there, buddy!

 

[Yagharek]

And seeing as you still feel resentment for Sony in the 90s, I don't think the "Wii is kiling gaming" people are going to change their tune in a decade.

This is true. Some people hold grudges for no good reason, and for too damn long. The market changed when PS1 launched. The market is changing now thanks to Wii. Neither case has "ruined" gaming.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Jesus, that's some dumb fanboy shit. I'd understand it more if the Wii were some sort of bastion of "old timey gaming" too. Instead it's just some party games and worse looking versions of what's on other consoles. In other words, a bowl of ass. I guess it's the sales which make him feel all nostalgic.

Then again, you have the bastion of gaming, like COD on the 360. Sold 7 million or something stupid. Where they spam enemies at you until you move to another spot 4 feet away. Shoot people and dumb quick time events. But it gets a pass. Nobody is doing gaming well, except the DS. Wii draws gamer's ire yet 360 gets a pass for some of the same shit. It's just not as successful. People who like true gameplay are left wanting on all counts. And the fringe pushed up it's console of interest.

 

[StuBurns]

To me it's proof that innovation and creativity are what drives this industry and not tech pissing matches. You clearly feel differently and thats OK.

Innovation and creativity? Nintendo? Are you high?

Lets take a second to think about what you're suggesting, here are the bigger Nintendo games this geneation:

Wii Sports/Play/Fit, Sony was doing this with EyeToy Play Sports/Play/Kinetic
Twilight Princess, it's a gamecube game, it's amazing but nothing special about the Wii one
WarioWare, same as last time, still good, but not original
Super Mario Galaxy, incredible, but no reason it couldn't be on gamecube
Super Paper Mario, again, same thing
Mario Party 8, yep, same shit different name
Metriod Prime 3, not as good as 2
Endless Ocrean, same as Aquanauts, long running franchise on Sony consoles
SSBB, same as last time
Mario Cart, same as last time
Wii Music, I've not played it so I can't comment, but I've only heard bad things

I'm over simplifying it for effect of course, but Nintendo are not innovating anything. They're rehashing old material with crap visual and audio quality.

For the leader of this generation to be the most conservative is terrible.

 

[templeusox]

The funniest bit will be that in about 10 years, somebody else will be introducing something new that brings in new casual gamers, and changes the business model for the better. Those who began gaming with Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit, will be complaining about how gaming is being ruined.

And they will be ignored. Because they will be people who were brought into gaming by Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

And they will be ignored. Because they will be people who were brought into gaming by Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit.

They'll be the majority, and they'll consider themselves *hardcore* gamers.

 

[dfyb]

nintendo's innovation comes, not necessarily with their games, but their overall approach to the industry and how they market it (also the controller). you can't deny that nintendo's success is the result of innovation. overall i think it's a good thing and it will grow the market (even though my wii collects dust in a box unused), but some people seem to think that all of the sudden nintendo's path is the only viable path, which is just incorrect. there's still a core market out there, which i think is also growing (based on game sales trends). but all the casual gamers who bought PS2 for one or two games are just more comfortable on wii, as it is tailored for them.

 

[AniHawk]

Metriod Prime 3, not as good as 2

I'll be the judge of that.

Super Mario Galaxy, incredible, but no reason it couldn't be on gamecube

No reason it couldn't be on Gamecube, but it's one of the weirdest examples of how the Wii remote drove the design of the game. As evidenced by Twilight Princess, Wii games don't have much in the way of camera control. So instead of building the game around the controller's "strengths," they had to build it around its limitations. That's why we got the spherical planets and A-B progression. There's no reason it couldn't be on Gamecube, but I don't think it would have been created for the Gamecube either.

 

[Calcaneus]

Stuburns, you're point? There are lots of PS3 and 360 games that on a conceptual level could have been done on the Xbox.

And as far as innovation goes, I would say that going with such an unconventional controller and making it the controller that most people play with this gen is quite a bit of innovation.

 

[AniHawk]

Stuburns, you're point?

Oh man, I'm sorry, but I've seen these both misused in this thread today.

You're = you are

your = possessive

 

[StuBurns]

There's no reason it couldn't be on Gamecube, but I don't think it would have been created for the Gamecube either.

It WAS built for the Gamecube for years.

Stuburns, you're point? There are lots of PS3 and 360 games that on a conceptual level could have been done on the Xbox.

And as far as innovation goes, I would say that going with such an unconventional controller and making it the controller that most people play with this gen is quite a bit of innovation.

I never claimed they were innovative, I said Nintendo aren't.

 

[d[-_-]b]

Oh man, I'm sorry, but I've seen these both misused in this thread today.

You're = you are

your = possessive

Rawr Grammar NAZI, then again I wish people would stop saying you welcome .

 

[pvpness]

epic hilarity

:lol Wow!

 

[Calcaneus]

Oh man, I'm sorry, but I've seen these both misused in this thread today.

You're = you are

your = possessive

Shit! Let's just say this is my way of artistically expressing myself and forget this ever happened.

 

[Regulus Tera]

And they will be ignored. Because they will be people who were brought into gaming by Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit.

Now you know how old timers feel about the PlayStation generation.

 

[dfyb]

Now you know how old timers feel about the PlayStation generation.

or the halo generation.

 

[mattfabb]

Dreamcast
+ year head start with no next-gen competition
+ perception of better games and online
+ cheaper price
+ couple of blockbusters out in that time

PS2
- $400 shock and always more expensive
- perception of no games
- bad press
- negative perception with gamers

 

[Musashi Wins!]

or the halo generation.

It's going to be fucking hilarious if your gaming career goes somewhere and Microsoft ends up being the one who gives you a chance.

I like Sony too, they're really taking a hard comeuppance right now, but you are the hardest of the core.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Even so there were a some great 2D games on the console, like SOTN and lots of 2D fighters.

And seeing as you still feel resentment for Sony in the 90s, I don't think the "Wii is kiling gaming" people are going to change their tune in a decade.

Jesus, that's some dumb fanboy shit. I'd understand it more if the Wii were some sort of bastion of "old timey gaming" too. Instead it's just some party games and worse looking versions of what's on other consoles. In other words, a bowl of ass. I guess it's the sales which make him feel all nostalgic.

His point was not that "old-timey" or 2D games will rule the world again, but that, just like it happened with them, cinematic games will be phased out by the Wii majority whether you like it or not.

What's he's saying is that you better get used to it.

or the halo generation.

Halo was contemporaneous to the PlayStation (2), so it applies.

 

[AniHawk]

Rawr Grammar NAZI, then again I wish people would stop saying you welcome .

Yeah, I hate doing it, since I know I'm a terrible writer too, but it's one of my pet peeves and I've seen it happen both times today.

 

[Calcaneus]

Hey, why is Sony and Nintendo getting all the credit for the death of gaming? MS killed PC gaming by releasing the Xbox guys!

 

[Redd]

Dreamcast
+ year head start with no next-gen competition
+ perception of better games and online
+ cheaper price
+ couple of blockbusters out in that time

PS2
- $400 shock and always more expensive
- perception of no games
- bad press
- negative perception with gamers

That's wrong. The PS2 was 299.

 

[StuBurns]

That's wrong. The PS2 was 299.

It also didn't have a perception of bad games. People were shitting their pants to get MGS2, FFX and GT3 at the time.