• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Take-Two's CEO (2K/Rockstar) weighs in on VR, doesn't sound very impressed

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Well...he's right obviously.

VR is going to be for a niche audience, and those people who don't want to put hardware on their heads and dissoassoicate themselves from reality are not going to want to join in on such an experience, especially with it being an extra peripheral
 
A $2000 entertainment device and a room dedicated to it, is pretty close to hyperbole, and I would expect better from the CEO of a major game publisher.

You don't need a $2000 entertainment device. You need a relatively expensive PC but that cost of entry is already dropping with $200 GPUs. And you can use those PCs for other things too.

And you don't in any way need a room dedicated to it. You need a few square metres of clear space but again, you can use those rooms for other things too. Guest bedroom with a foldaway bed? Slide the coffee table to the side of the room, you can swing your arms over the sofa area. Lots of ways to make the limited space you need

all that as seen on TV junkware they run 30 minute infomercials on can be used for other things too.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Pick the most extreme example, use that as the basis for mass consumption viability. Sounds cogent.

as a core gaming enthusiast on a core gaming enthusiast website, you should not be using your own standards on someone who just wants to play games without the barrier to entree
 

yyr

Member
And that is why I would love to see a renaissance of the arcades. I can't spend so much money on VR or I also lack of the space for the foreseeable future. But I would love to go to a mall and play some VR arcade machines. Or play in a roomspace with VR.

THIS THIS THIS.

I am in NY and have the privilege of still being able to go to arcades on a semi-regular basis. I grew up with arcades, love everything about them, and would love to see them come back.

VR is THE perfect application for this. Not only would it allow for users to try the experience before dropping cash on a consumer-grade version, it would also allow for the arcade-grade versions to have jaw-dropping visuals. A secondary screen showing the action could also be part of the cabinets, so observers have something to look at.

The fact that nobody seems to be going for this is a HUGE missed opportunity IMO.

VR is not simply an addon for a game machine.

At the moment, as it is being sold right now, that is exactly what it is. PSVR is, by definition, an add-on for a game machine. Oculus Rift and Vive are add-ons for general-purpose computers, but they require video cards that were built with high-end gaming in mind. Perhaps in the future this will not be as true as it is right now.
 

Foggy

Member
as a core gaming enthusiast on a core gaming enthusiast website, you should not be using your own standards on someone who just wants to play games without the barrier to entree

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the barrier is more nuanced than he is choosing to frame it. Hell, he can make the same point without making it sound like the most extreme enthusiast use-case of VR is the essential barrier to entry. It just isn't. And all barriers adjust over time with tech advancements. If he's so worried about your average family jumping into VR he should at least see the current limitations of mobile VR.
 
I won't take stuff like this to seriously tbh after EA said something very similar but then suddenly decided they were going to make VR games.
 

bj00rn_

Banned
At the moment, as it is being sold right now, that is exactly what it is. PSVR is, by definition, an add-on for a game machine. Oculus Rift and Vive are add-ons for general-purpose computers, but they require video cards that were built with high-end gaming in mind. Perhaps in the future this will not be as true as it is right now.

You missed the point.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Well...he's right obviously.

VR is going to be for a niche audience, and those people who don't want to put hardware on their heads and dissoassoicate themselves from reality are not going to want to join in on such an experience, especially with it being an extra peripheral

Except for the part where VR doesn't require complete disassociation with reality. I mean, you can but donning a VR headset doesn't inherently mean you're going all hermit. It's entirely possible to enjoy VR with other people around. Crazy as it might sound, many of us who have VR sets have had sessions with other people around. Where all present are enjoying it no less. Go figure.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Wasn't that different from 90s VR either, save the paint demo.

vr-in-first-kids1omc.gif

big plastic box on the head, check
big plastic gun, check
standing in a big plastic circle, check

looks pretty similar to me

The plastic box in the Virtuality VR pod had a combined resolution of 552x372 refreshing at 30 hz. The headset weighed 1050g. The "Big Plastic Circle" in the virtuality pod is merely a magnetic ring that tracks the headset along two axis - X, and Z - with no regard to rotation, only pitch and yaw (2 IMUs), nor any Y axis (height) tracking. The magnetic ring was subject to interference by any metal objects around, including change in your pocket. The pod itself is not actually an omnidirectional treadmill, it's merely a magnetic ring designed to keep you in tracking range - you don't actually move in Virtuality games. The Virtuality Pod is 12' x 4' big. The entire unit weighs 286 pounds.

The computer running those demos were Amiga 3000's - running on 16 bit M68000 processors - the same processor as the Sega Genesis - running at 15 mhz - slightly faster than a Sega CD. They had absolutely no 3D hardware what so ever. An upgraded version of the Virtuality pod offered a 486 (not DX) PC, but was too cost prohibitive. It had 2 mb of ram.

The entire pod cost $65,000.

The game being played looked like this:

eXFhFf5.jpg


This is my Virtual Reality kit:

CaF5KQ8UcAA4b8_.jpg


It's an Oculus Rift DK2, a Virtuix Omni, and my PC.

A single eye in the already extremely out of date Oculus Rift DK2 has an effective resolution of 640×800, refreshing at 75 hz. Meaning each eye has twice the resolution and refreshes more than twice as fast as the entirety of the virtuality headset. The headset weighs 440g, less than half the weight of the Virtuality headset.

The DK2 is tracked using outside-in positional tracking of imbedded IR LEDs at 60 hz, plus 3 IMUs inside the headset tracking yaw, pitch, and rotation. Through sensor fusion from the 1000hz IMUs and 60hz outside-in positional tracking, the headset tracks position in X, Y, and Z.

The pod itself is not merely a stand, it is an Omnidirectional treadmill. It is modeled with a curve that matches the walking gait of a 6' tall person, tracking each foot independently with an IMU polling at 1000 hz. Additionally, the ring uses magnetic induction with a weak magnetic field on the attached harness to discern body orientation, tracking separately from feet and head. The Virtuix Omni is 4.5' x 4.5' big. The entire unit weighs 90 pounds, almost 1/3 the weight of the virtuality pod.

The computer running this VR demo has an i7-4970k. Each individual core is at 4 ghz - each core is 250 times faster than the CPU of the Amiga 3000, and there are 4 cores capable of running 8 threads total. It is packing a GTX 980 sc. My video card alone is hundreds of times faster than the entirety of the 486. My PC has 16 gb of ram - 8000 times more memory.

My entire set up - Rift, Treadmill, and PC - could be had today for about $2500 total.

The game being played looked like this:

CXsiipe.jpg

"ok"
 

yyr

Member
You missed the point.

No, I don't think so.

My statement wasn't about the concept of VR on the whole, it was about the current Big Three VR platforms being offered in 2016, hence my usage of "at the moment, as it is being sold right now."

The concept of VR is obviously more than just a gaming machine add-on, but the 2016 manifestation of VR is not. There are folks trying to paint these 3 devices as something much more; obviously, I (and this Take Two guy) disagree.
 

bj00rn_

Banned
The concept of VR is obviously more than just a gaming machine add-on, but the 2016 manifestation of VR is not. There are folks trying to paint these 3 devices as something much more; obviously, I (and this Take Two guy) disagree.

VR right now is fully functional, the concept is realized, and it fundamentally gives the user experiences not possible by traditional means. So the fundament is now solid, the consumer technology has been proven to work. From now on we're "only" looking at a series of iterations and variations in both technology and form factor. Whether the versions we have now are blanco suited for all experiences is another discussion (f.ex. VR for full fledged flight simulators right now isn't optimal because the resolution isn't high enough), but just like sales numbers, it doesn't change the fact that VR is here, now.
 

poodaddy

Member
I live in a tiny, and I mean tiny New York City apt and I made it work. Where there's a will there's a way. But yeah this isn't for everyone... yet.

Vive or Occulus? I salute you either way though; I just don't know how I could make the Vive work, though I suppose the Occulus is certainly possible, though still not ideal.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
I felt the same way about roomscale.

Then I tried it, and was so blown away I made space for it.

I've demoed it to a lot of people who had the same attitude before trying it, and all but one completely changed their opinion after.

It's so good that once you try it, you'll go to extreme means to acquire it. And this is just showing first-gen stuff to people... once there are more complete game/immersive experiences the draw is just going to get stronger.
 

Bedlam

Member
Yup, that's simply a healthy dose of reality right there. VR will likely never (!) become a mainstream thing.
 
It's not that he's not impressed, He just doesn't see it as a good business move right now. If VR does ever make it mainstream, of course he will change his tune.
 

YuShtink

Member
It won't have mainstream adoption right away (something this disruptive never does), but that doesn't make it any less fucking awesome.
 
A lot of people buy good pcs for a lot of reasons. For those people, it's not a 2000 dollar entry, an updated graphics card and the device itself suffices for a large percentage of people. And there are also a ton of PC gamers where the entry bar is even lower.

Beyond that, not all VR games need room-scale shit.

Not a market my ass. Maybe the pricepoint and the amount of software isn't there yet, but the tech is and it's glorious.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
A lot of people buy good pcs for a lot of reasons. For those people, it's not a 2000 dollar entry, an updated graphics card and the device itself suffices for a large percentage of people. And there are also a ton of PC gamers where the entry bar is even lower.

Beyond that, not all VR games need room-scale shit.

Not a market my ass. Maybe the pricepoint and the amount of software isn't there yet, but the tech is and it's glorious.

He should have just stated the obvious:

The install base for VR isn't going to be large enough in the next two years to sustain a 40 million dollar AAA production aimed at it.
 

prwxv3

Member
It seems like it would be a bad business idea for any major developer put an investment into VR at the moment. Especially AAA investment.

No one expects(not even the device holders) huge AAA games on these devices yet. Games like RIGS and such are still fucking awesome though so if that is the baseline for fully fleshed out games I think people will be happy.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Sports cars don't make sense in the US either. We have speed limits that any new car can easily reach, it costs a ton of money to go to the track. So why do people pay extra for a Porsche when they could get a Hyundai? It makes no sense!
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
VR is amazing, game changing, and like no other experience in the world.




But yeah, most people don't have a few thousand to drop on it and an entire room to dedicate to it like I do.


This is gen 1, it will take a while before everyone has one.


Its a giant leap in the right direction.

VCRs and Color TVs were too pricey for most at first as well.
 

Angry Fork

Member
I don't really get the room complaint. It feels like people who play standing up in empty rooms walking around are just doing it to record youtube videos of it rather than actually play a game. I can't imagine most people actually playing that way. I have no interest in it because eventually you're going to bump into a wall, plus you're standing up, like ...why?

The cost is a legitimate issue though. I really want to get VR but it's just too expensive right now.
 

Jumeira

Banned
VR is amazing, game changing, and like no other experience in the world.




But yeah, most people don't have a few thousand to drop on it and an entire room to dedicate to it like I do.


This is gen 1, it will take a while before everyone has one.


Its a giant leap in the right direction.

VCRs and Color TVs were too pricey for most at first as well.

Holy...You serious ? Colour to images were absolutely necessary for every display, you would require all TVs to upgrade your experience for all types of viewing. VR is nowhere near this level of change, it's optional, unnecessary but available. The mention of VR doesn't fill people with excitement colour video would, it's absolutely nowhere near the same impact, my god, sounds desperate in your behalf sorry.
 

Kikorin

Member
I love VR, I've a room for it, but I've still don't seen games that makes me really excited, only tech demo or a bit more, but not enough to spent so much (for my obv).
 
I'll say it again. Plenty of people didn't have a problem finding room to play the Wii. They didn't need a room dedicated to it. If you had space to swing your arms around playing Wii Sports, you have space for VR. Simple as that.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
I'll say it again. Plenty of people didn't have a problem finding room to play the Wii. They didn't need a room dedicated to it. If you had space to swing your arms around playing Wii Sports, you have space for VR. Simple as that.

Pretty much true. Almost all games use the teleport paradigm, and they need less space than the kinect.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Holy...You serious ? Colour to images were absolutely necessary for every display, you would require all TVs to upgrade your experience for all types of viewing. VR is nowhere near this level of change, it's optional, unnecessary but available. The mention of VR doesn't fill people with excitement colour video would, it's absolutely nowhere near the same impact, my god, sounds desperate in your behalf sorry.

TV/Monitor -> VR is a greater change than monochrome -> color TV. Color merely refined monochrome TV. Much like HD refined color TV. They were all moving pictures accompanied by sound at the base. While nice, in very few cases were they actually necessary. You can film in B&W today and still have a great result. In photography it's still used quite often. VR is more akin to the Radio -> TV transition. TV added pictures to radio's sound. VR adds presence (for the lack of a better encompassing word) to the TV's pictures and sound. It's a technological superset of functions that can't be emulated with the simpler gear. People can't really grasp it until they've experienced it. It'd be like expecting people to know what TV was like by descriptions on the radio, or understand radio by descriptions in a newspaper. At best they'd get a vague concept, but until they saw one it'd just be a figment of their imagination.

Also, I must say, I find the people claiming VR will never be mainstream quite amusing. Never is a fucking long time. Merely hundreds of years ago - a drop in the proverbial bucket of human history - people would claim that humans would never fly through the sky. Or do any of the things that seemed downright impossible at the time that we take for granted these days. Now we have technology in hand that we can slap somebody in the face with, and people have the balls to say "never"?
 
Damn, reading this thread. Wow

Its like you guys have learned nothing from the Wii, Mobile gaming, PS4 vs. XBO, basically EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE BEEN WRONG ABOUT IN THE PAST DECADE.

I think about it like this: How many times have we tried to implement VR in real life? How often have you heard the term 'staycation'? How much has science fiction toyed around with the idea of Virtual Reality?

It is an eventuality, people, not for me or you, but THE ENTIRE WORLD. The populous wants this, and the negativity is not going to stop it.

All I truly wonder is how many of you are willing to admit you are/were wrong when proven as such.
 

Kolgar

Member
Correct. A solitary experience that forces the player to disappear into a hidden world behind goofy-looking goggles will have a hard time gaining mass acceptance anytime soon.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Damn, reading this thread. Wow

Its like you guys have learned nothing from the Wii, Mobile gaming, PS4 vs. XBO, basically EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE BEEN WRONG ABOUT IN THE PAST DECADE.

I think about it like this: How many times have we tried to implement VR in real life? How often have you heard the term 'staycation'? How much has science fiction toyed around with the idea of Virtual Reality?

It is an eventuality, people, not for me or you, but THE ENTIRE WORLD. The populous wants this, and the negativity is not going to stop it.

All I truly wonder is how many of you are willing to admit you are/were wrong when proven as such.

Wow, jesus, calm down guy. Not everyone accepts everything to begin with. We still use radios almost a century after creation, and what not.

Price, factor and way of life are all a factor.

Just cause you saw the matrix one time doesn't mean its an eventuality that robots will gain AI sentience and destroy the world.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Wow, jesus, calm down guy. Not everyone accepts everything to begin with. We still use radios almost a century after creation, and what not.

Price, factor and way of life are all a factor.

Just cause you saw the matrix one time doesn't mean its an eventuality that robots will gain AI sentience and destroy the world.

Destroy the world? Humans do that well enough without the help of AI. What is an eventuality (assuming we don't kill ourselves off first) is that an AI will gain sentience. It's not a matter of if, but when. Much like VR going mainstream. To claim otherwise is to basically say humanity will stagnate or regress on its accomplishments.
 
The world doesn't change overnight. The internet took a solid decade before it became mainstream, much less ubiquitous. People have a selective memory about smartphones because they tend to ignore that Blackberry was servicing a much smaller enthusiast market with similar (if obviously less advanced) PDAs for years before the iPhone.

I wouldn't call this pessimistic. "It's going to take a few cycles before it changes the world forever," is just a fair assessment working from existing data.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
I will say this, though.

The developers that start working on VR now will have a tremendous leg up on the studios that start work on it later.

It is in everyone's interest to do some projects with VR/AR, even smaller scale ones at the massive AAAs, to not fall behind once the install base exists.
 
Nope. Vive is approaching 70K users and the pack-ins are Tilt Brush, job Simulator, and fantastic contraption. Look up how many people total have played the game to date.

70k install base after 2 months

EA shut down studios when their games sell 2 million copies (dead space 3)


Maybe in another 200 months a third party publisher or bigger developer who isn't being money hatted will consider taking a look at making a game for VR.



What I'm saying is that VR sales clearly are extremely low right now. 70 k install base is laughably niche and the talking point of VR being a success or being highly desirable atm because 'it has sold out' is bullshit when put in the context of 'sold out' meaning 70k units.
 

J-Rzez

Member
I'm confused. Can you not just wear a visor and use your kb/m or controller and just be immersed by that? Do you need to jump around and swing your arms around like a lunatic for vr to work?

Sure, PC costs can be high, but will come down as graphic cards get more powerful and affordable like the 1070 and RX480. The problem is the visors are ridiculously pricy yet forcing too many gimics. I mean they should look to PSVR for headtracking and such.

Until they get the costs of those visors down on pc it'll be a high end toy for people. PSVR though maybe what breaks it in.
 
Top Bottom