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[nkarafo]

It is a contradiction in terms. You really can't have a realistic fighting game. VF is as close as it gets because the fighting styles and strategy but there's very little about it that could be considered realistic.

You seem to just be discovering the genre, OP - really and truly, just relax and leave realism behind, there's not much place for it here.

Not really, i play fighting games since the early 90's, rocking SF2 on arcades.

I don't get what my experience has to do with why i don't like how juggling looks?

I do like combos. MK3 was my favorite game when i first played it because of that. But the way juggling looks in many games looks completely off to me.

 

[Blueblur1]

I think juggling is at its worst in 3D fighting games like Tekken, Soul Calibur, and DOA. The more realistic models and 3D movement making it harder to slow versus 2D games like Street Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom.

 

[Psychoward]

So, we all like juggling.

Any way to improve how it looks?

The fact that the opponent is flailing in mid-air is one of the best parts about it tho. But you can't change it too much because you still need visual tells in fighters.

It is a contradiction in terms. You really can't have a realistic fighting game. VF is as close as it gets because the fighting styles and strategy but there's very little about it that could be considered realistic.

I mean, there are the UFC games and whatnot but those have ridiculously convoluted control schemes along with not being as good as traditional fighting games.

 

[mbpm1]

So, we all like juggling.

Any way to improve how it looks?

If we didn't like how it looked, we wouldn't like juggling. i think what you want, is what you want.

 

[GuardianE]

Not really, i play fighting games since the early 90's, rocking SF2 on arcades.

I don't get what has my experience anything have to do with how i don't like how juggling looks?

There's no way to employ juggling without it looking unnatural and unrealistic. It is inherently impossible to replicate in real life, and so from your perspective, it'll always look awkward.

I actually think spinning, flipping, and knockback animations for juggling in fighting games look fantastic for the most part. All fighting game movement and attacks are exaggerated animations for emphasis.

 

[nkarafo]

There's no way to employ juggling without it looking unnatural and unrealistic. It is inherently impossible to replicate in real life, and so from your perspective, it'll always look awkward.

I actually think spinning, flipping, and knockback animations for juggling in fighting games look fantastic for the most part. All fighting game movement and attacks are exaggerated animations for emphasis.

I like those animations too. Because they are animations for a specific thing. You want the character to spin. You make a spinning animation. That's great.

Juggling (in most games) looks like the game doesn't know what to do with the character. It looks like unfinished animations for other reactions that loop over and over again. They look off (in most games).

 

[HueyFreeman]

Not really, i play fighting games since the early 90's, rocking SF2 on arcades.

I don't get what my experience has to do with why i don't like how juggling looks?

Huh. I honestly just assumed because you'd never heard the term juggling before.

If you don't have an intrinsic problem with juggling but rather how it looks, can you given an example of how you want it to look? The mechanics of fighting games demand that you can't over-animate things, so I'm just not clear on what you're asking for.

 

[capylikesgames]

I think your problem is looking for realism in fighting games, OP. That wouldn't be any fun. And honestly, juggling is harder than it looks. If someone catches you for a while, they definitely earned it.

 

[remz]

the difference is everyone can do those combos in sfv. It's canned combos in a jar.

when smug did them in sfiv it looked like they shouldn't be part of the game.

Think of how long sfiv was out at the time smug busted out those combos vs how long sfv has been out right now. I think it's short sighted to think a.) Skill peak for v has been reached and b.) A character like Dudley with freeform combo shit won't be added to v. First two years of sfiv had baby ass combos too

 

[GuardianE]

I like those animations too. Because they are animations for a specific thing. You want the character to spin. You make an animation, Great.

Juggling (in most games) looks like the game doesn't know how to render the character. It looks like animations for some other thing that loop and don't even have the time to finish. These animations look off.

Those animations are all a part of juggles. Look at some of the gifs in this thread, like with SFV and Marvel.

It sounds like you have a problem with certain juggling animations over others, and that's just going to depend on the game, and is way too game specific to make a catch all statement that juggling looks bad.

 

[mbpm1]

Think of how long sfiv was out at the time smug busted out those combos vs how long sfv has been out right now. I think it's short sighted to think a.) Skill peak for v has been reached and b.) A character like Dudley with freeform combo shit won't be added to v. First two years of sfiv had baby ass combos too

sure, but you were the one who brought up rog's v-trigger combos to compare to that in the first place.

 

[low-G]

Juggling looks great, feels great, is great.

If anything more genres need it, exactly as we have it now in fighting games.

I need to juggle my FPS opponent midair.

 

[nkarafo]

Those animations are all a part of juggles. Look at some of the gifs in this thread, like with SFV and Marvel.

It sounds like you have a problem with certain juggling animations over others, and that's just going to depend on the game, and is way too game specific to make a catch all statement that juggling looks bad.

I suppose you are right.

Some games look better than others. Tekken and MK look bad but SF looks like they put more care to this particular thing to smooth it out. I wonder if that's the limit of how "right" it can look though.

 

[orochi91]

Juggling is fun

That's just cruel, lol

 

[Crayon]

It feels good to relax and get knocked around for a minute. I usually deserve it anyway.

 

[kiuo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vziStKcg6g

Juggling looks easy in ssbm but quite hard to pull off. I could never do it because I couldn't ever pull off the wave dash

 

[Coreda]

Juggling is fun

You'll have to fill me in here. Are there two characters against one or is it some summonable special move?

 

[KillLaCam]

Fighting games arent trying to be realistic though. Juggling is a big part of many fighting games. If you remove that then you remove so many combos.

You'll have to fill me in here. Are there two characters against one or is it some summonable special move?

Yeah its a Tag Match. The other character kinda just runs in from off screen at a crazy speed.

 

[spazchicken]

3D fighters like Tekken and DoA are the biggest offenders here.

Though some moves juggle, Street Fighter isn't really juggle heavy.

 

[HeatBoost]

Juggling is okay in terms of launching someone into the air, and then they have a limited amount of time in there that can be slightly extended depending on how you follow it up, that's pretty cool and a good fit for fast, crazy style fighters

Being able to juggle people in more moderate paced games, unless it's like maybe a launcher and then ONE BIG HIT, seems a little corny to me

When you're able to bat someone around like a volleyball, and it's not Smash Bros, that shit ain't my style. I realize that more intense fighting game people might like it, but to me it's like snaking: it's dull to see, and corny

 

[David___]

You'll have to fill me in here. Are there two characters against one or is it some summonable special move?

Looks like two characters vs the training bot

 

[Alucrid]

You'll have to fill me in here. Are there two characters against one or is it some summonable special move?

you can tag teammates in and out

 

[tsundoku]

doesn't look that awful

juggles are super tight in sfv
in tekken seven for example theyre hilariously loose and doofy but its charming

this topic is just crying response to the criticism of mortal kombats trashfire animation topic from earlier.

 

[WordAssassin]

I fuckin love juggling I don't give a fuuuuuuck

I main Samus in Smash and I spend like all my time in the air. Nobody ever touches the ground when I'm playing HUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[freethoughtbubble]

There is a difference between looking unrealistic and looking wrong IMO.

Sounds like a personal problem.

I'd hazard a guess and say that juggling is one of the things people really enjoy about fighting games. Can't imagine a modern one that would omit such a fun mechanic. I also don't think you can make it look "realistic" since it's patently not. Any game that would omit it in favor of realism is a game I'd avoid like the plague.

 

[remz]

juggles are super tight in sfv
in tekken seven for example theyre hilariously loose and doofy but its charming

this topic is just crying response to the criticism of mortal kombats trashfire animation topic from earlier.

MK fans stealth trashing jp fighter games.... never ever.

doesn't MK have goofy ass juggles anyway

 

[Calm Mind]

Literally the best part of fighting games.

If by best you mean worst, then yeah it is.

You would think with all tech available that fighting game genre would have evolved past being nothing more than a prelude from neutral into a what is esssentially a carnival act of how long can I keep my opponent in mid air.

 

[Monocle]

I suppose you are right.

Some games look better than others. Tekken and MK look bad but SF looks like they put more care to this particular thing to smooth it out. I wonder if that's the limit of how "right" it can look though.

Counterpoint:

MK (2D), Soul Calibur, and Virtua Fighter look bad.

SF, DOA, and MK (3D) look OK.

Tekken, MvC, and Guilty Gear look great.

 

[jadedm17]

I believe you're looking for juggling and its gameplay element and isn't really supposed to look realistic.

Realistic isn't fun; Juggling is a fun part of fantasy games. How realistic are most fighting games? Common OP.

 

[mbpm1]

If by best you mean worst, then yeah it is.

You would think with all tech available that fighting game genre would have evolved past being nothing more than a prelude from neutral into a what is esssentially a carnival act of how long can I keep my opponent in mid air.

So, basically...a combo?

 

[Daeoc]

I've always been fine with juggling, except for Tekken and I don't really know why.

 

[HeelPower]

Does it bother you? Is it unavoidable for gameplay reasons? Can it be improved visually at least?

Also, are there any fighting games that don't do this?

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

 

[Keratay]

I don't play fighting games, but I did play Lunia Online and the reason I dropped it was that the pvp in that game was just who could start their juggle first.

 

[kasane]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

and the fighting game you'll design will utterly fail

 

[Dimitri LH]

If your looking for realistic fighters, pretty sure MMA and Fight night boxing games are right up your alley.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

It looked well in Injustice.
Mostly because it's a superhero game where people tossing each other around anyway.

 

[KillLaCam]

MK fans stealth trashing jp fighter games.... never ever.

doesn't MK have goofy ass juggles anyway

I hope this isnt a response to the MK thread. I like MK and pretty much every cool combo is a juggle one. Maybe inspired by the MK thread but nobody who plays MK is gonna say that juggles are bad.

 

[Remapped88]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Let's hope you never design a fighting game then because combos are essential to the genre and to fighting itself. It's like making a platforming game without jumping.

 

[HeatBoost]

and the fighting game you'll design will utterly fail

I am not ethically opposed to junggles, and I'm not a hater of traditional fighting games, but I have felt the genre has basically been running in place since... probably around the late 90s? What real innovations have there been since then? When was the last time there was a change that made everyone go "Oh, shit, yeah"?

I think the way that combos are traditionally utilized is part of that. Everyone wants combos. Big ass long ass combos that go on forever and are next to impossible to break out of if executed correctly. That's boring to me. The idea of a combo is something kind of inherent to melee fighting (i.e. if you hit someone a certain way, they will be stunned, and you can hit them again) but so many games have combos look that treat your opponent like a speedbag... it's kinda dull.

It's not unique to fighting games; whenever you have a genre that sorta loses it's mass popularity, you'll often see a slow in innovation because there's no longer big piles of money to throw around, so design gets conservative. And as much as I'm looking forward to Tekken 7FR, I wish we still had games like Tobal, Bushido Blade, Virtual On, Def Jam Vendetta and the like floating around.

 

[depths20XX]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Uh, combos are fun and reward good execution. They are also a good punishment for the opponent making a mistake. It's not bad game design just because you say so. You also seem to be in the wrong considering every good fighting game has combos.

 

[Durden77]

Juggling only really looks bad in NRS games to me.

 

[Uraizen]

I am not ethically opposed to junggles, and I'm not a hater of traditional fighting games, but I have felt the genre has basically been running in place since... probably around the late 90s? What real innovations have there been since then? When was the last time there was a change that made everyone go "Oh, shit, yeah"?

Well, new mechanics in fighters make me do that. It basically sounds like people want a different genre.

 

[QisTopTier]

Looks awesome as hell in Guilty Gear and BlazBlue to me

 

[NoctisVsStar]

 

[SirPinkyNose]

I am not ethically opposed to junggles, and I'm not a hater of traditional fighting games, but I have felt the genre has basically been running in place since... probably around the late 90s? What real innovations have there been since then? When was the last time there was a change that made everyone go "Oh, shit, yeah"?

For Honor is the latest one.

 

[mbpm1]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Bad game design?

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

You hit with the right button > You get rewarded and can hit them more.

Basic feedback loop. Taking combos out of fighting games is like taking items and skills out of an ARPG, taking all but one gun out of an FPS, or taking characters out of a Sims game. You could do it, but what are you bringing to replace it?

 

[JusDoIt]

Stealth NRS hate post, I see you.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Removing combos nah man a fight usually starts off like this looking for an opening

Once you land the first hit.. well you capitalize

 

[Evilisk]

What's with the topic shift from juggles to combos

I mean yeah, juggles are a type of combo, but not all combos are juggles

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Here's some gameplay from a fighting game with no combos

 

[Crayon]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

How do you feel about short combos like in sf2? Same or better?