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The awful "knocking your opponent midair over and over again" in fighting games.
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
Evolution often leads things to feeling like a "different genre" so maybe. Open world mission based drivey/shooty action wasn't really considered a genre unto itself until people started biting GTA3's style, so...
This is a good example. Nowadays it feels like if there's going to be a totally fresh, completely different type of fighting game it's going to come out of someone riffing on the PVP fights in Dark Souls instead of a more classical arcade-style fighter.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Crayon
Member
No lies. They dumbed that shit down just in time for my old ass.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
It's ok, they made Dive kick just for you
It'd be easier for someone to make a new genre than make a new fighting game ip that would sell at this point
nkarafo
Member
These animations look amazing though. Because they also look realistic. Imagine Ryu doing the usual juggling hop in the second gif.Removing combos nah man a fight usually starts off like this looking for an opening
Once you land the first hit.. well you capitalize
Well, they're also not juggling.
Psychoward
Banned
They're also not from gameplay footage lol
I think the reason GG and Blazblue juggles both look great is because both the attacker and the victim get mega vertical momentum. It's easier to sell the combo juggle when a guy is zooming up and across the air with their opponent (as opposed to being planted while launching) cuz it's like he's punching so hard he took off...
Fist of the north star 2 when? Arcsys pls
There is nothing wrong with juggles in Tekken. It's not like it takes forever like what OP describes. Tekken combos aren't even supposed to be realistic anyway. And there are other games that have more broken mechanics or one touch death combos than the most optimized damage you can do in Tekken.
This feels like hating on Tekken for no good reason.
This feels like hating on Tekken for no good reason.
There are countless TEKKEN korean matches that play mainly around pokes,footsies,throws and just rock solid back and forth fighting.Mind you tekken is extremely combo heavy ,but it does happen every once in a while that players are so focused on safe gameplay that they avoid using launchers.This is tekken at its best for me.
Another game that did combos right was Soul Calibur 2. A knockdown move with an additional hit or so is more than enough.
I enjoy pokes and ground game much more than enjoy locking opponents into stun animations.
Ah, that makes sense then; you're a relic.
Nothing of what you've said makes combos bad game design though. You can have ALL of the things you mentioned without combos, and adding combos takes nothing away from them. If anything combos help add variety and allow for appreciation of what you mentioned more.
depths20XX
Member
I mean yeah, SC2 is one of the best 3d fighters of all time, you're right. Personally I'd love to see that series return to that style. Tekken is extremely combo heavy though.
MightyHedgehog
Member
The only real problem I've had with juggles and floats is that it soon became a universal part of virtually all fighting games from the earliest days. An exciting yet more believable, biomechanically-correct treatment of collisions and a fun combination system would be nice to see outside of the sports sim genre. Juggles can feel like a crutch that simplifies the work of making new sideview fighting games and they are certainly a holdover from the early days of the designs that expected single-screen arcade and home play. With online play being so prevalent and tournament setups dedicating a screen to each player, it would be the right time to see new fighting games take advantage of non-neutral, behind-the-player-character camera angles that would also allow the mechanics to be free of the classical arcade design roots. Local play could still happen with splitscreen and LAN.
T7 has already altered the structure of it thus resulting in way shorter combos than the steroids it was in Tag 2. How is it extremely combo heavy when you still have neutral and pokes to account for to avoid getting that big punishment?
Long juggles based on meter like the EX meter in recent Street Fighters and Drive cancels in KOF are fine for me. At least you know that if your enemy caught you with a full meter, all the juggled pain you would receive is fair game.
Short string juggles using normal attacks like Sophitia's launcher,kick,kick, thrust combo or Lau's launcher + pppk combo are again fine with me. Some characters in the roster needs to have reliable juggle launchers for gameplay variety.
Long string juggles using normal attacks for every character in the roster like the Vs series (and Tekken to a slightly lesser extent)is terrible even if juggle opportunities is the reward for interrupting your opponents attack. Instead of that, why not a knockdown or crumble/stun opportunity? Seeing that ugly-ass juggle hit animations over and over again and you powerless to stop it, is terribly frustrating. For this type of scenario, the game at the very least should've a way to counter it after the first few hits land.
Short string juggles using normal attacks like Sophitia's launcher,kick,kick, thrust combo or Lau's launcher + pppk combo are again fine with me. Some characters in the roster needs to have reliable juggle launchers for gameplay variety.
Long string juggles using normal attacks for every character in the roster like the Vs series (and Tekken to a slightly lesser extent)is terrible even if juggle opportunities is the reward for interrupting your opponents attack. Instead of that, why not a knockdown or crumble/stun opportunity? Seeing that ugly-ass juggle hit animations over and over again and you powerless to stop it, is terribly frustrating. For this type of scenario, the game at the very least should've a way to counter it after the first few hits land.
doesn't look that awful
I'm not even seeing the problem,
Crayon
Member
The problem is that it's practice mode. Nobody wants to practice.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
good animations != realistic physics. Actually you have to make them unrealistic to look good.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
It's not meant to look realistic. Why are you looking to fighting games for realism? What you're talking about is juggling, and for games like Tekken, it's a core part of the meta game.
pretty done
Member
JimiNutz
Banned
I don't like juggling either.
To be honest the fighting genre is in desperate need of reform.
Traditional 2D and 3D fighting games should absolutely exist but there needs to be more options for other people that didn't grow up playing Street Fighter or Tekken but want to play a fighting game.
OP try UFC 2 - The ground game isn't particularly fun but the stand up fighting in that game is really good. The system has reasonable depth and the fighting is much more realistic.
To be honest the fighting genre is in desperate need of reform.
Traditional 2D and 3D fighting games should absolutely exist but there needs to be more options for other people that didn't grow up playing Street Fighter or Tekken but want to play a fighting game.
OP try UFC 2 - The ground game isn't particularly fun but the stand up fighting in that game is really good. The system has reasonable depth and the fighting is much more realistic.
Psychoward
Banned
Look in to Divekick and For Honor, ARMS is coming out soon as well.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
this is fine in smash bros where you can change your trajectory dynamically instead of something where you can put your controller down for a few seconds
I wish some fighters explored different ways to win. Fighters Destiny was interesting in the way it handled things and Im sure there is potential to explore there.
ioriyagami
Member
I personally dislike juggling too, but it has nothing to do with realism (c'mon, we are talking about fighting games. Very few things are realistic in them).
Juggling is just another type of combo mechanic (BTW, all of the people here comparing juggling with MvC air combos: it is not the same. At all). It involves skill and practice, and as such is rewarding and fun to do it. I think the reason I don't like them is that they don't look as stylish as ground combos and that when receiving them I find them more frustrating than regular combos, since it constantly looks like the combo is going to end and you are going to recover control of your character, but then the juggle continues until your opponent misses or you leave the "floating" state.
Juggling is just another type of combo mechanic (BTW, all of the people here comparing juggling with MvC air combos: it is not the same. At all). It involves skill and practice, and as such is rewarding and fun to do it. I think the reason I don't like them is that they don't look as stylish as ground combos and that when receiving them I find them more frustrating than regular combos, since it constantly looks like the combo is going to end and you are going to recover control of your character, but then the juggle continues until your opponent misses or you leave the "floating" state.
Nidhogg, Smash (and its clones like Brawlhalla and Rivals of Aether) and Pocket Rumble are all different takes into the genre as well.
https://youtu.be/xmr6WxJHyVM?t=397
Not sure if this is considering "juggling" in a traditional sense, but I love this combo.
Not sure if this is considering "juggling" in a traditional sense, but I love this combo.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
What makes Pocket Rumble different? Because from the trailer I saw it looked like your traditional 2D fighter with neogeo pocket aesthetics.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Sounds like ARMS.
Spladam
Member
I believe Killer Instinct 2 Gold had a mode just to practice juggles?
I used to love juggling in Tekken 3 Tag, but like some pointed out here, it's only fun when you're the one juggling. If not, you knew what was coming and could take a short break while it happened.
DOA was/ is the worst for this, it gets cheap, the Capcom crossover games has some pretty bad examples too.
I used to love juggling in Tekken 3 Tag, but like some pointed out here, it's only fun when you're the one juggling. If not, you knew what was coming and could take a short break while it happened.
DOA was/ is the worst for this, it gets cheap, the Capcom crossover games has some pretty bad examples too.
Alx
Member
I love fighting games, but was never fond of juggling. Or long combos. I understand there is some skill to it, but the longer it is the less interaction there is between players, it's just one player doing the punishing and the other watching it happen.
I liked early Virtua Fighter precisely because it wasn't too focused on combos and juggle. Since VF4 it hasn't been the same (even if it's still a great game)
I liked early Virtua Fighter precisely because it wasn't too focused on combos and juggle. Since VF4 it hasn't been the same (even if it's still a great game)
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Arms
Pokken
Power Stone
Smash Brothers
Gundam Vs
One Piece Burning Blood
Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm
Maybe you just need to actually try to look
60EffPeeEss
Member
If fighting games got rid of juggles, and went for full-on real-life realism, they'd all be like those UFC games. Boring as fuuuuuuuck.
I got a guy who shoots energy out from his hands, across a screen, and ignites a dude on fire... but juggling is crazy.
Realism.
To be fair however, the purpose in some respect is meant to garner that emotion and doing it in some games really is a skill to be admired (when you're not getting your ass handed to you.)
Realism.
To be fair however, the purpose in some respect is meant to garner that emotion and doing it in some games really is a skill to be admired (when you're not getting your ass handed to you.)
rocketskates
Member
Uh it called juggling, leading to combos.
What is your birth year OP because you're delusional as fuck.
What is your birth year OP because you're delusional as fuck.
neogaf
It's definitely the closest to a traditional fighter but special moves are done by holding diagonals briefly and then pressing a button. There are also only 2 buttons.
It's like the next step from Divekick as far as complexity goes.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
So basically you just want the launchers to all do 1/3rd life damage instead? Sounds like a garbage idea